O'Conner vs Keith (Small & Fast vs Big & Slow) - Which is Best?

[Bandera]

D. This is why there are medium bores, the 35’s, 9.3’s and 375’s.

But if I have to chose… I guess I would pick the second option.

 

[pilar]

I’m a fan of both
I think it’s a misnomer that O’Connor was a fast and light, he merely pointed out the .270 win was more effective with proper bullets and post ww2 bulk powder for medium game.
But lots of his writings deal with 7x57 , 30-06 , 375
EK pointed out that if the cup and core bullets of the time were lack luster and using mass weight would help overcome the problems in poor design.
Technically both were proportional in better design and speed
One a educated man
One a school of hard knocks
Both egotistical and arrogant entertainers & inventor’s , of different opinions

 

[MS 9x56]

The truth, like everything in hunting, is they both have their place. For hunting the plains the light and fast work best, for thick cover short ranges and big game slow and heavey work best. The problem is, you don’t know what will be required ahead of time, and the is plenty of overlap. You choose your tool based on your knowledge of the game being hunted and your experiences. In other words you picks your poison and live with the results. Me personally I am firmly in the Elmer camp as I know my limitations and draw my line at 300 yards and under with heavey for caliber bullets and lots of practice. Which is not the same as range time. Just one old hunters opinion, take it for what it is worth to you. Good luck in your future adventures. Just one word of caution you and only you have to live with the results. Choose carefully.

 

[WyoBull]

As a general rule, I tend to be on the light and fast side because I have a number of varmint caliber rifles in my arsenal and have always liked speed in what I am shooting. Even in my 7mm RUM, my favorite load is the 145 gr Barnes LRX and a bullet weight I would consider light for Caliber.

But, at the end of the day, it depends on what I am hunting and where. That will drive me to what caliber and bullet I use.

I also live in Wyoming where we shoot longer distances as a general rule.

 

[mark-hunter]

Both are effective for hunting: is so far in majority of opinions.
(I selected heavy and slow)
I think that both types to be effective is under condition of using quality bullet. My choice was under assumption of using classic soft point bullet. Cup and core.
But, yes, if using premium bullet, they should be equally effective.

 

[mdwest]

it depends..

whats the quarry? whats the range?

if we're talking a 50 yard shot on a running 300lb feral texas pig.. give me something big & slow.. 45-70 is pretty good medicine..

if we're talking a 300+ yard shot across an open field on a huge bull elk.. I'll take smaller and faster... 300 PRC please..

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I too read some of the works of O'Conner and Keith and enjoyed both. I do believe that the evolution of newer premium bullets like the various bonded core options and the more recent monolithic TSX type have blurred the lines significantly between the points where fast and light's advantages crosses into the domain of the bigger and slower options. In part this may be why so many PH's now recommend the 375's for DG instead of some of the larger, slower, formerly more effective options out there. The recent development of the cup point solids have even enhanced the value of the medium bores for the largest of game. I think you can make either work for most hunting applications but I do still think that for most applications one may hold at least a small advantage over the other.

Lately, I have been practicing at a range with 200/300/400y steel plates to verify dope on a few different cartridges. 243, 30-06, 7mm/08 and 7mm Mag just to name a few. It is striking how much longer it takes a 30-06, 180g bullet to travel down to the 400y plates when compared to the much faster 7mm Mag or the uber fast 75g Superformance in the 243.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Big caliber and modest velocity for most big game, except the great cats. For those, the ideal recipe for success is reasonably big caliber (say above .338 bore) at a very high velocity (but not exceeding 2500 FPS).

For fast calibers, bullet construction is extremely crucial because certain bullet types will distort when pushed to higher velocities. So (for instance) a Hornady DGX .458 caliber 500Gr bullet will distort when fired at .460 Weatherby Magnum velocities, but a Barnes TSX .458 caliber 500Gr bullet will not.

 

[Happy Myles]

As a young boy I eagerly awaited Outdoor Life magazine to read Jack O’Connors monthly article, “Getting The Range”.

 

[dogcat1]

I shoot what I have.
There are dozens of great bullet writers. All say - “make the first shot count”.
That is my ALWAYS plan.
I prefer 7x57, .257 Rob, .300 HH, .280 Rem and .375 HH.
Yet I have many others - most recently a.404 Jeff.
So learn to shoot, short well, make your first shot count…

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I respect and even admire both of these gentlemen.

If I had to choose which I'd want to hunt with, I'd pick Elmer.

I think O'Conner was a better writer. But, when reading Elmer's writings you didn't need a dictionary.

I enjoyed both.

As for rifles, I like a big and fast round, with quality bullets. So I guess I'm a compromise. I'm lucky to have that opportunity.

We're lucky to have read guys like these two. There were many other tremendous writers during their era, but these two rise to the top. Today's writers are more like paid ad men who write articles for who bought their last trip. You couldn't buy Jack or Elmer.

I have Elmer's book "Hell, I was there". I wore it out. I wish Jack had written something similar.

 

[steve white]

I should be the last person to mention this, but I think most wives prefer big and slow to small and fast...

 

[Muskox]

My biggest failures hunting have been from medium speed bullets that do not penetrate in cartridges like the 308 and 8x57.

The 300 Winchester has been very very effective with the 150 Grain Barnes X and the 190 Grain bullets even at range.

Similar bullets in the 308 have left me desiring more cowbell.

I am I alone?

Never had a problem with a big heavy bullet.

Never had a problem with the 25-06 and 115 grain bullets.

 

[Muskox]

I respect and even admire both of these gentlemen.

If I had to choose which I'd want to hunt with, I'd pick Elmer.

I think O'Conner was a better writer. But, when reading Elmer's writings you didn't need a dictionary.

I enjoyed both.

As for rifles, I like a big and fast round, with quality bullets. So I guess I'm a compromise. I'm lucky to have that opportunity.

We're lucky to have read guys like these two. There were many other tremendous writers during their era, but these two rise to the top. Today's writers are more like paid ad men who write articles for who bought their last trip. You couldn't buy Jack or Elmer.

I have Elmer's book "Hell, I was there". I wore it out. I wish Jack had written something similar.

I was a child when both men died. 78 for O'Connor and 84 when Keith died.

I used to think Jack O'Connor would be someone interesting to hang out with. I don't believe that anymore. I don't think I would like him. I enjoy his writing.

I met a couple of other famous gunwriters in my years of life. Chub Eastman, Craig Boddington, and quite a few of the current folks that aren't very famous. I actually feel the same about them. I don't have anything against COL Craig, I bought his last book. He's a good writer, but I personally didn't think I would want to spend much time with him.

Keith was different. He was a real gentleman. Reminds me of the vast majority of Wyoming and Montana cowboys in their 80's that I have known during my life. I guess that is because he was one. Everything I have read about Elmer is that he was super kind to everyone.

 

[VINOYASADO]

" BOTH ARE EQUALLY EFFECTIVE FOR HUNTING"

I think it depend WHAT you hunting and what you facing or coming towards you!!

What do you preffer to stop a buff, 180 gr @ 3300 FPS (300 Wby) or 400 gr @ 2100 FPS (404 Jeff)

I'm definitely going with the 400 gr!

​

 

[MS 9x56]

My one serious question to the light and fast advocates is how much meat did you lose due to bloodshot? I am a meat hunter and I want 2 holes for better blood trailing (if necessary). Big and slow provides my needs.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

My one serious question to the light and fast advocates is how much meat did you lose due to bloodshot? I am a meat hunter and I want 2 holes for better blood trailing (if necessary). Big and slow provides my needs.

Doesn’t matter if you head shoot.
Gumpy

 

[BryceM]

Interesting question. I’m leaving the personalities of the guys out of it, as I’ve read from both but actually met neither of them….. I’m sure each would have plenty to say about the trends of today.

After considering these questions for most of a lifetime as a hunter and a surgeon, here’s my conclusions.

Accurate shot placement trumps everything else. Put little bits of metal in the vitals and things die. This is true of spears, arrows, and bullets. Miss the vitals and “hydrostatic shock” only saves you rarely. This fact alone is probably the “secret” to the success of the .375 H&H and 6.5 CM. Most people are affected by recoil more than they admit.

Your understanding of the tool in your hands is important. “Beware the man with one gun. He probably knows how to use it.” If you want to use a rig with turrets and ballistic computations, great. Master it. If you want to use solids, great, put them where they need to go. If you want to use monometal bullets, learn what makes them expand. All PHs get nervous with the guy who can’t remember how to load the rifle or get the safety off.

A master photographer can do glorious work with a throw-away disposable camera while an idiot with a fancy new DSLR and premium lens will only rarely capture something nice. Experience trumps theory every day of the week.

I might rather be holding a trusted .300 win mag with solids to stop an elephant than a random .470 NE that holds who-knows-what for bullets.

For DG, rifles and bullets are important, but preparation, endurance, and steadiness are more important.

Just because you have hunted whitetail for a lifetime in Wisconsin doesn’t mean you know what works on buffalo. The opposite is also true. Take advice from the guys who do it for a living.

I’m a huge fan of fast .300s with TTSX for NA critters and most PG, but you’ve got to shoot them well, and often.

 

[Hunt anything]

@BryceM, not too sure about the .300 on a charging elephant. I don’t think even the best constructed.30 caliber bullet will penetrate 2 feet of bone to the brain. I get the sentiment, it’s best to be comfortable with your gear but a charging elephant will relieve you of all future worries if yo try to stop it with a .300.
The only time I ever felt under gunned was on a pissed off cow, I was holding a .375 Ruger that I am extremely comfortable with as I carry it every day during season.

 

[uplander01]

From both their writings here is what I've determined in my mind. If you have a 375, with a good QR mount system and a good optic, express or peep sights, that shoots 270gr flat fast and accurate @ 2600fps+, and the same rifle you can load 350gr, slower around 2250fps, you have a rifle to hunt anything, anywhere, end of story.