Old bullets = "fragile" ?

[Firebird]

Sounds like an email to nosler is in order. Were they blemished by any chance-possibly not washed clean of chemicals during the manufacture process?

 

[Rule 303]

I wonder if this is simple bad quality control where some faulty production plastic tips made it through to bullet production.

 

[Longwalker]

I'm pretty sure I would have noticed blemishes and certainly would have noticed missing tips when I loaded these .308 cartridges 11 years ago. And I've never purchased "factory seconds". But don't think I'll bother Nosler with a question so many years later. Just hoping to learn from others experience. My theory is that i possibly contaminated a couple bullets with some bore solvent or some such chemical. I shot them up today and they actually shot reasonable groups on paper. Wouldn't trust them on game though.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'm pretty sure I would have noticed blemishes and certainly would have noticed missing tips when I loaded these .308 cartridges 11 years ago. And I've never purchased "factory secgonds". But don't think I'll bother Nosler with a question so many years later. Just hoping to learn from others experience. My theory is that i possibly contaminated a couple bullets with some bore solvent or some such chemical. I shot them up today and they actually shot reasonable groups on paper. Wouldn't trust them on game though.

@Longwalker
The plastic tips are there to improve the projectiles bc and hep initiate expansion.
The tip missing should affect on game performance much but that's only my opinion

 

[Rule 303]

I'm pretty sure I would have noticed blemishes and certainly would have noticed missing tips when I loaded these .308 cartridges 11 years ago. And I've never purchased "factory seconds". But don't think I'll bother Nosler with a question so many years later. Just hoping to learn from others experience. My theory is that i possibly contaminated a couple bullets with some bore solvent or some such chemical. I shot them up today and they actually shot reasonable groups on paper. Wouldn't trust them on game though.

What I was getting at is there may have been a defect in the making of those plastic tips. Defects that wont show to the naked eye and time/other chemical interaction effects then unlike those that are OK. When you think of the millions of rounds made it is quite possible for the odd defect to get through.

With the performance of the Nosler Solid Base with ballistic tips that I used nothing would surprise me.

 

[7x57Joe]

I'm just an old curmudgeon who has never trusted plastic tips. I hated it when Nosler ceased production of the old reliable Solid Base for the new Ballistic Tip.

 

[fourfive8]

The Nosler Ballistic Tip and it’s close cousins from the past the Solid Base and the Zipedo never have been what anyone would call a premium hunting bullet. Both bullets tend to be very accurate but both are about equally frangible. They are simply a non-bonded cup and core with a thin jacket and solid base. They tend to come apart in long shards and commonly shed their cores.

Chronological distance tends to make the heart grow fonder… especially true with some bullets.

 

[Rule 303]

The Nosler Ballistic Tip and it’s close cousins from the past the Solid Base and the Zipedo never have been what anyone would call a premium hunting bullet. Both bullets tend to be very accurate but both are about equally frangible. They are simply a non-bonded cup and core with a thin jacket and solid base. They tend to come apart in long shards and commonly shed their cores.

Chronological distance tends to make the heart grow fonder… especially true with some bullets.

The old 130 grain 270 solid base would drop a decent sized pig from muzzle to 320mts(about as far as I shot one) no trouble, be it in the head or in the rear and anywhere in between. I hit a smallish sow in the front of the head, she was in the spot light so around 80 to 90 meters, with the plastic tip solid base, she dropped to the shot. By the time we walked over she was gone. Found her dead the next day, thanks to the crows, about 2Km away. Massive surface head wound. Used what I had of that ammo on paper and have not bothered buying any since.

 

[ChrisG]

I dont think it has anything to do with the bullets being stored for too long. It likely has to do with manufacturers changing the metallurgical recipes for their bullets over the years to stand up to higher velocities. Now that said... lead that has been swaged, will become softer over a period of the first few months but will always be above A BHN of about 4. My guess is that the manufacturers have gone from pure copper jackets to gilding metal and have started alloying their lead with a tiny amount of antimony to withstand the higher velocities so popular nowadays

40 years ago, probably your average hunter used a 30-30, 30-06 or 308 at 2400-2800fps. Everybody today wants to push a 140 grain 6.5mm at 3000fps. So they have modified their recipes so they can still achieve the desired performance.

 

[RayAtkinson]

Most of them were soft in the first place, had thin jackets and lots of soft lead exposed. I had a good deal of that stuff I loaded 50 years or more ago but sold some recently..still have a little 250-3000 and 9,3x62. It kills good except for an occasional hiccup and tracking job and its almost accurate..works well in the 9,3, not so good in the 250.

 

[RayAtkinson]

Im at an age where I shot those bullets of yesteryear and bullet failure was common with any bullet other than the Rem Corelokt didnt fail, and the Silvertips off and on as the made them right then changed them to ruin them. Win had a rough time with the high echon until they made the Power Point and it excelled and still does..Peters was Remington so it was a good bullet. satellite com like Western OPE worked on game but shot poorly in many cases...Those were bad times and I followed a lot of wounded animals for my rancher dads clients that paid $50. to shoot a deer and $35 for an antelope. Let me say this John Nosler changed the whole picture and the rest followed and they listened and they did a damn good job and we now seldom hear of a bullet failure and most of those complaints today are by gents that simply think the bullet failed,

 

[RayAtkinson]

Ive not used old bullets after they got old, but I know this old bullets were not worth a damn to start with, back in the 50s failures were common with the exception of REM corelokts and later WIN PPs, the reason us old ranch raised kids learned to track so well

 

[HWL]

My DWM 180gr TUG ammunition from the 1960s still works perfect in my .300 Holland & Holland.

HWL

 

[grand veneur]

I also shot buffalos in Malaysia in the nineties with DWM cartridges caliber 9,3x74R and FMJ bullets that worked without any problems.

DWM stopped production of cartridges at the beginning of the seventies.

 

[MS 9x56]

I was reading some articles published by the excellent "Ballistic Studies" folks in New Zealand. The author mentioned something that I had never read before. He claimed that very old bullets (stored for a few decades) may have changes to the core or jacket that cause the bullets to expand quicker / fragment more. Can this be verified? What would be the reason? Is it a significant difference?

I have quite a few bullets in my reloading stash that were purchased from estates and such. Some, like the 7mm 175 gr. RN are a style not easy to find since most manufacturers have quit making that style, but my 7x57 shoots the old style heavy RN bullets best. Same with some of my .375 bullets, 9.3's and some .308" too. Makes me a bit wary of using those old bullets on game.

What is your experience?

I shot a wild sow that went 250 lbs with a 175 grain roundnose Hornady bullet made in the 1950’s it went through the hog and totally destroyed the heart. I can’t say what it would do on one of Bell’s brain shots on an elephant but my guess is it would work just fine . I don’t doubt that at magnum velocities they may suffer jacket and core separation but I don’t believe that would be caused by age but by using the bullet outside the parameters it was designed for. I shoot a lot of 50-80 year old round nosed bullets I everything from 250 savage up the 9.3x 62. Can’t say I have experienced bullet failure as I don’t recover many, as they pass through. Granted I am not shooting eland or wildebeest but I have not experienced any failures such as they describe. Most of my loads with round nose bullets are kept between 2400-2700 fps though.

 

[HankBuck]

@Longwalker
The plastic tips are there to improve the projectiles bc and hep initiate expansion.
The tip missing should affect on game performance much but that's only my opinion

BOB, we are told by environmentalists that Plastic “never degrades”, lead “never degrades” - both stay in the ground & landfills for 1000s of years !
BUT, Now when you need that damn stuff — both are falling apart?? Somebody’s lying to us !

 

[HWL]

BOB, we are told by environmentalists that Plastic “never degrades”, lead “never degrades” - both stay in the ground & landfills for 1000s of years !
BUT, Now when you need that damn stuff — both are falling apart?? Somebody’s lying to us !

Don't worry,..... environmentalists degrade!
And finally, they become grass, and the grass is eaten by buffalos.... we can hunt.

HWL

HWL

 

[RayAtkinson]

Back in the day not so long ago, most bullets failed from time to time but sometimes they failed an killed, the bullet boys listened and changed the game and todays bullets are the best ever. I have not had a real bullet failure in the last 60 years, but had many before that. The ony good bullets I recall working every time were the Rem corelokts and at some point the Winchester Power Points, and they still do today it seems.

 

[MS 9x56]

Back in the day not so long ago, most bullets failed from time to time but sometimes they failed a killed, the bullet boys listened and changed the game and todays bullets are the best ever. I have not had a real bullet failure in the last 60 years, but had many before that. The ony good bullets I recall working every time were the Rem corelokts and at some point the Winchester Power Points, and they still do today it seems.

I can’t disagree I just with they would throw me a bone and design one or 2 roundnose bullets.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I can’t disagree I just with they would throw me a bone and design one or 2 roundnose bullets.

@MS 9x56
A round nose may not fly as dear as a nice as spbt but out to 200 yards it sure seems to hit a lot harder in game. It just seems to rock them to the core.
Bob