Old Military Rifle Accuracy?

I have a few military rifles I shoot pretty often. I’d say the Swiss K-31 and the Finn 39 are the most accurate. The limiting factor for me is using the iron sights. They usually shoot around 2 moa but I’ve always felt they had the potential to group tighter if they were scoped. I like (can see) the thicker front sights on the Finn and K31 better than the thin front sights on the 1917 Enfield and A3-03 Springfield. They all are fun to shoot!
 
@Tokoloshe Safaris

Lon,
I never gotten to idea to ask NRA, I am not a member. (I would be if I am US citizen, which I am not)
Do you think they would reply?

(its great idea, btw)
You might try one of the nra museum. I don’t think they’d mind if you were a member or not.

 

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The spec for the old smle in British service was a group of no more than 2" wide by 4" tall at 100 using standard service ammo.

I'd say this is fairly representative of what most countries were working on at the time.

Minute of human torso out to about 600yds, so about as good as the standard iron sights would reasonably allow.

My personal experience of these rifle (smle, no 4, Schmidt Ruben, arisaka, p17, moisin nagant, 98k) suggests that they'll do this kind of accuracy with most off the shelf ammo, whilst a handloader can reasonably cut that down to maybe 1.5moa.
 
My dad had a Remington 03 (not A3) that he got when they were surplused about 70 years ago. It was early issue and had been rebarreled in the armory with a high standard barrel. I only shot it a little. a friend of ours convinced him to sell it to a fellow involved with military matches. I don't know what its accuracy in terms of MOA, but the fellow went on to win several local and state matches, though I don't know if he ever made it to the Camp Perry level. I recall it being quite accurate but the stock design made it difficult for me.
 
Thanks @Mark A Ouellette

i have another related question, for those who might know.

In the time when those rifles were made tender for by governments - was there any (standard) army requirement of minimum accuracy for those rifles? (any rifle, for any army?)
@Mark hunter
The English had a minimum standard of 4" at 100 yards in the hands of the average infantry soldier. The better ones could go 2" or less and the best ones were sent off the people like Holland and Holland the be accursed for sniper work. This was for all marks of SMLE and P14s.
Sgt Snoxall a British musketry instructor was able to fire 20 shots with his SMLE in one minute standing and hit I think it was a 12 or 8 inch gong at 300 yards every time.
This shoot was known as the mad minute
Bob
 
Maybe I should add that with my FN-FAL I normally get 3” groups. I suspect this has some to do with the sights. I find them less than optimal for precision shooting.
@Wyatt Smith
They are BATTLE sights not for precision shooting.
Place a piece of tape over the apature, spray it mat black and then put a pin hole in it for the apature.
Done that way I could get 34mm 5 shot groups out of the old SLR L1A1 @100 yards
Bob
 
Some of my notes:
1) US 1955 HRA M-1 Garand (.30-06) - very accurate. With original sights, I've shot a 2" 10 shot group at 100 yards. And that was with 1976 Greek surplus ammo.
2) Russian 1943 Izhevsk M91/30 PU sniper (7.62x54r) - shot 2-2.5" groups regularly with surplus ammo.
3) Yugoslavian M24/47 (7.92x57mm) - with iron sights and handloads I can honestly get 1.5" groups. Might could do better if it had a scope. It's iron sights aren't the best.

I have and have had many others. Most will do 2-2.5" groups at 100 yards with the right ammo. I've read Finnish Mosins and Swiss K-31 rifles are some of the most accurate, but I've no personal experience with either.
 
My real deal star gaged 03a4 shoots under an inch with the m73 scope and commercial ammo.theres no place for a rear sight so no iron comparison.my friend is a British Enfield guy and he swears by their Accuracy.they knew how to make barrels back then
 
I think some of the inaccuracy is in loose chambers.they we're built to shoot everything and anything.mud snow sand.and then throw all the bolts in a bucket and then pick them back out.and make them work
 
Off the rack, probably K31, then Swede or 03 Springfield.

Gas guns, M1 hands down.

Get on the CMP website and you can see when the guys are winning the Vintage & Modern Military Matches with (usually shooting hand loads but with strict rules on upgrades like bedding, etc.).

 

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My 03A3 only has an aftermarket 24” barrel (not sure of make), but it shoots about .75 MOA with anything I feed it.

My limited experience: Most Garands seem like 2 MOA, and stock Springfields are about 1.5 MOA. The Mausers are similar. I haven’t shot the Mosin or Enfield.
 
My best friend's grandad was a self taught gunsmith. He found some new, in-the-white Brazilian 1908 barrels in 7x57mm and built three custom rifles with them. All three shoot dime groups with almost any load. I try to buy one off them every couple years or so, but no luck so far.
 
Hard to offer an inclusive, objective and fair opinion. Few if any people have shot all the varieties in comparable condition. My main interest is in older military rifles that span the era from the Mexican War, through the Civil War but have owned and shot a variety of the ones mostly being covered in this thread- maybe Span-Am War through WWI and WWII.

Prior to the US M1841, most blackpowder military arms were smoothbores that shot single round ball or some combination of ball, buckshot or shot. My experience with these has been they are not very accurate compared to rifled arms. However that doesn't say they were ineffective on the battle field. I have two original 69 cal US military smoothbores- one flint and one percussion. I would not like to be shot at by either gun by an experienced shooter on the battle field at any range less than maybe 250-300 yds. Less than those ranges and the hit ratio will get progressively higher for my taste, probably approaching 100% at 75 yds or less. :) And obviously some smoothbores will be as accurate as any one particular more modern rifle that may have a worn out bore or shooting bad ammo. :) In any case all these comparisons need to be made apples to apples.

All my old military, both rifle and smoothbore, are original. I have a 54 cal US M1841 rifle and two or three 58 cal US Model 1861/63 rifle muskets that at +/- 50 yds are as accurate if not more so than most modern smokeless cartridge military rifles comparing all with original open or iron sights. In some cases there is little doubt that "battle" sights may be the limiting factor for accuracy with any rifle. I shoot these originals with the components they were originally loaded with- musket cap ignition, blackpowder charges that approximate the caliber in grains and near pure lead hollow base Minies.

From the early 1890s to the early 1900s an explosion of modern smokeless cartridge military rifles were being developed by many countries. Of the ones I've owned or shot, the 4 groove 03 Springfield and the 4 groove Remington and the 6 groove S-C 03-A3 Springfields have consistently been the most accurate. The couple of 2 groove Remington 03-A3 I've had were not as accurate as any of the 4 or 6 groove Springfields- all other things being equal like bore condition.

But no matter the rifle or country of origin, all this remains somewhat anecdotal because the sample sizes are small and I haven't shot, and I would say very few have, even a majority of the ones out there. Plus, original military arms in comparable and good to excellent condition are hard to get ahold of to begin with. The most accurate of all military rifles I've owned, dating up through the WWII era, was a really high condition US 4 groove Remington 03-A3 Springfield. I'm sure the aperture sight helped but still little doubt about how exceptionally accurate it was.
 
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Hi,

"Our" Mausers 1909 and, specially the 1891 rifles, are great shooters with the appropiate ammo. Usually MOA rifles out to 300 meters. Period. The best ammunition for them was the belgian FN 78 military cartridges. Made with match standard. INCREDIBLE ACCURATE! Berdan cases and ball powder. The second best was our match ammunition made in the 50´s and 60´s with special maquinery imported to make these cartridges for an International Army Match made here then. They came in 15 cartridge boxes, 3 clips of 5, with a 300 meters Free Rifle target printed in the box. Berdan cases with corrosive primers and German type flake powder. Great cartridges !!
The 1891 Mauser has an edge, but not by much, on accuracy over the 1909. The 1891 general quality is really OUTSTANDING for a military rifle...
My 7x57 is made with 100% military parts: Argentine Mauser Werke action (Modelo-Mauser-1935), 7mm Mauser S.I.G. replacement military barrel for the 1912/1935 Chilean Mausers, shortened at the first step from the muzzle, at 60 cm, and the original Argentine 1935 stock very well sporterized. A true Sub-MOA rifle out to 300 meters. In fact, the groups at 200 meters are 1,5 x size of the ones at 100 meters. Rougly 1,5"/200 meters. Regularily, not occationaly. With most 160/175 loads.
Some friends have 1896 and M1938 Swedish Mausers. Accurate as the best. I know two friends that have Finish M-Nagant, that are truly great shooters as well.

Best!

CF
 
Hi,

"Our" Mausers 1909 and, specially the 1891 rifles, are great shooters with the appropiate ammo. Usually MOA rifles out to 300 meters. Period. The best ammunition for them was the belgian FN 78 military cartridges. Made with match standard. INCREDIBLE ACCURATE! Berdan cases and ball powder. The second best was our match ammunition made in the 50´s and 60´s with special maquinery imported to make these cartridges for an International Army Match made here then. They came in 15 cartridge boxes, 3 clips of 5, with a 300 meters Free Rifle target printed in the box. Berdan cases with corrosive primers and German type flake powder. Great cartridges !!
The 1891 Mauser has an edge, but not by much, on accuracy over the 1909. The 1891 general quality is really OUTSTANDING for a military rifle...
My 7x57 is made with 100% military parts: Argentine Mauser Werke action (Modelo-Mauser-1935), 7mm Mauser S.I.G. replacement military barrel for the 1912/1935 Chilean Mausers, shortened at the first step from the muzzle, at 60 cm, and the original Argentine 1935 stock very well sporterized. A true Sub-MOA rifle out to 300 meters. In fact, the groups at 200 meters are 1,5 x size of the ones at 100 meters. Rougly 1,5"/200 meters. Regularily, not occationaly. With most 160/175 loads.
Some friends have 1896 and M1938 Swedish Mausers. Accurate as the best. I know two friends that have Finish M-Nagant, that are truly great shooters as well.

Best!

CF
I had a semi sporterized 1917 Enfield with a star guage barrel that would shoot one ragged hole at 100 yards with anything I stuffed into it. Amazing, and like a young foolish damn fool I sold it. Regretted it ever since and I've never seen another one.
 
Hi,

"Our" Mausers 1909 and, specially the 1891 rifles, are great shooters with the appropiate ammo. Usually MOA rifles out to 300 meters. Period. The best ammunition for them was the belgian FN 78 military cartridges. Made with match standard. INCREDIBLE ACCURATE! Berdan cases and ball powder. The second best was our match ammunition made in the 50´s and 60´s with special maquinery imported to make these cartridges for an International Army Match made here then. They came in 15 cartridge boxes, 3 clips of 5, with a 300 meters Free Rifle target printed in the box. Berdan cases with corrosive primers and German type flake powder. Great cartridges !!
The 1891 Mauser has an edge, but not by much, on accuracy over the 1909. The 1891 general quality is really OUTSTANDING for a military rifle...
My 7x57 is made with 100% military parts: Argentine Mauser Werke action (Modelo-Mauser-1935), 7mm Mauser S.I.G. replacement military barrel for the 1912/1935 Chilean Mausers, shortened at the first step from the muzzle, at 60 cm, and the original Argentine 1935 stock very well sporterized. A true Sub-MOA rifle out to 300 meters. In fact, the groups at 200 meters are 1,5 x size of the ones at 100 meters. Rougly 1,5"/200 meters. Regularily, not occationaly. With most 160/175 loads.
Some friends have 1896 and M1938 Swedish Mausers. Accurate as the best. I know two friends that have Finish M-Nagant, that are truly great shooters as well.

Best!

CF
@Clodo Ferreira
The reason the Finish mosins are so accurate is they were made by Sako as a rule.
 
I had a semi sporterized 1917 Enfield with a star guage barrel that would shoot one ragged hole at 100 yards with anything I stuffed into it. Amazing, and like a young foolish damn fool I sold it. Regretted it ever since and I've never seen another one.
@Newboomer
What is a star gauged barrel mate.
 
Bob, Star Gaged barrels were more accurate than standard issue. see the attached link.
 

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As a dealer in WW2 and before weapons as well as Safari rifles - I have had quite a lot of experience

Mossin Nagant snipers have had several sub MOA - the Swiss Sniper rifles that is a given cant remember the model but they are super accuracte - Enfields have had 2 Parker Hale "sporterised " with new barrels that could clip 1moa (scoped) one loves Rem corelock the other PPU SP ! and neither will group with the other !

Apart from that 2-3 moa I will let them go for sale - most prefer PPU ammo - I only use FMJ when testing service rifles -


The amazing one is the Lugeuman AG42B - that semi auto will drill holes - if Semi Auto were allowed in RSA that would be my springbok culling rifle - in a heartbeat.

I did once at a lodge I regularly cull on when in RSA turn up with one of the parker hale sporterised - and for fun unpacked on the veranda - one rifle 4 magazines 5*10 rounds 12 stripper clips ! Said let us sort this cull once and for all ;-) !

Fun times
 

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