PHASA Captive Bred Lion Hunting

[Royal27]

Only 8 facilties have been accreditted by independant Assesors. The Assesors are a panel of people . I can try and get more info about the accreditation process. This should be in the SAPA document .

Not really independent.... SAPA membership required in order to receive the "independent" accreditation. Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong.

 

[BRICKBURN]

No Assessors from PHASA?

So is this not effectively relinquishing control over where members hunt to another small organization?

That could certainly leave an impression SAPA took over PHASA

 

[SafariA]

No Assessors from PHASA?

So is this not effectively relinquishing control over where members hunt to another small organization?

That could certainly leave an impression SAPA took over PHASA

5 of the 8 properties acreditted was actually done by the previous President of Phasa .

 

[BRICKBURN]

This discussion is for education purposes from my side.

Did the past iteration of PHASA restrict whom members could hunt with?

 

[SafariA]

Not really independent.... SAPA membership required in order to receive the "independent" accreditation. Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong.

It means no non SAPA member can be accreditted . It makes sense . Any organization can only act against its members . Not against someone that is not a member .

 

[Royal27]

5 of the 8 properties acreditted was actually done by the previous President of Phasa .

Was he also a member of SAPA at the time? I'm trying to determine what independent means.

 

[SafariA]

This discussion is for education purposes from my side.

Did the past iteration of PHASA restrict whom members could hunt with?

No there were no restrictions before the Resolution of 2015.

 

[SafariA]

Was he also a member of SAPA at the time? I'm trying to determine what independent means.

He has never been a member of SAPA. He does not own any Lions .

 

[Royal27]

It means no non SAPA member can be accreditted . It makes sense . Any organization can only act against its members . Not against someone that is not a member .

Respectfully disagree.

Accreditation

the action or process of officially recognizing someone as havinɡ a particular status or beinɡ qualified to perform a particular activity.
"the accreditation of professionals"

It's about qualifications, not membership. That is if someone is truly interested in qualifications... Anyone should be able to become accredited if they "pass the test."

 

[SafariA]

Before 2015 there were no restrictions on where you could hunt . The only requirement was a legal hunt . So 96 hour release period at any of the roughly 200 Lion owners. Most had their own Hunting areas . Others transfered their Lions to Hunting areas. Min area permisable by law was 1000 ha . Release 96 hrs.

2017 Resolution ONLY permits PHASA members to hunt 8 spesified properties with min release period of 30 days which can be increased to satisfaction of the client should he wish.

 

[SafariA]

Respectfully disagree.

Accreditation

the action or process of officially recognizing someone as havinɡ a particular status or beinɡ qualified to perform a particular activity.
"the accreditation of professionals"

It's about qualifications, not membership. That is if someone is truly interested in qualifications... Anyone should be able to become accredited if they "pass the test."

Ok let me explain ..This is not a Governmental Accreditation Process. This Accreditation is for members of SAPA only . This is done by a panel consisting of a SAPA member , Phasa member designated for this purpose.... in the past the President and some others. I think panel is 5 members.

I hope this makes it a little clearer.

 

[IvW]

Who will be policing this? Who is going to make sure with regards to the release that it is actually documented or regulated?

PHASA is not involved neither is Nature conservation.

 

[IdaRam]

Ok let me explain ..This is not a Governmental Accreditation Process. This Accreditation is for members of SAPA only . This is done by a panel consisting of a SAPA member , Phasa member designated for this purpose.... in the past the President and some others. I think panel is 5 members.

I hope this makes it a little clearer.

It seems this very point that you make is what some of us have a bit of an issue with, or at least question the merit of. Specifically this question of accreditation. What does it matter if an accredited facility is a member of SAPA or not. If accreditation is bestowed, it certainly can be revoked. SAPA and/or PHASA member or not.
It seems that the “value” if you will is in the accreditation, not membership of an organization.
Let’s say for example that a SAPA-member facility receives accreditation. PHASA members then have the green light to use that facility for pursuit of Captive Bred Lion, correct? If at some point that facility is found to be non-compliant with the requirements of accrediation, their accrediation is revoked, correct? At that point PHASA members are no longer allowed to use that facility. If they do, they are in violation of the requirements of their membership in PHASA.
Why is anything different for a non-SAPA member facility? Don’t abide by the rules, lose your accreditation. No more green light from PHASA.
It seems to me that the requirement that a facility be a member of SAPA is protectionism on the part of SAPA. If SAPA members are the only ones who can receive accreditation, and there are only 8 of them, they would seem to have a bit of a monopoly that allows them to possibly charge more money as an accredited facility. If this is not the case, why not open up the accreditation process? Keep the lines between PHASA and SAPA “un-blurred”. PHASA can police its members and SAPA can police its members. PHASA and SAPA can work together under the same accreditation requirements and participate together to certify the facilities.

 

[Hank2211]

It seems this very point that you make is what some of us have a bit of an issue with, or at least question the merit of. Specifically this question of accreditation. What does it matter if an accredited facility is a member of SAPA or not. If accreditation is bestowed, it certainly can be revoked. SAPA and/or PHASA member or not.
It seems that the “value” if you will is in the accreditation, not membership of an organization.
Let’s say for example that a SAPA-member facility receives accreditation. PHASA members then have the green light to use that facility for pursuit of Captive Bred Lion, correct? If at some point that facility is found to be non-compliant with the requirements of accrediation, their accrediation is revoked, correct? At that point PHASA members are no longer allowed to use that facility. If they do, they are in violation of the requirements of their membership in PHASA.
Why is anything different for a non-SAPA member facility? Don’t abide by the rules, lose your accreditation. No more green light from PHASA.
It seems to me that the requirement that a facility be a member of SAPA is protectionism on the part of SAPA. If SAPA members are the only ones who can receive accreditation, and there are only 8 of them, they would seem to have a bit of a monopoly that allows them to possibly charge more money as an accredited facility. If this is not the case, why not open up the accreditation process? Keep the lines between PHASA and SAPA “un-blurred”. PHASA can police its members and SAPA can police its members. PHASA and SAPA can work together under the same accreditation requirements and participate together to certify the facilities.

@IdaEam, your would work for me, although I could also live with the 'semi-conflict' you identify by which only SAPA members can be accredited.

Personally, I would be happy to pay more to hunt an accredited facility, and I have a preference that such a facility belong to both SAPA and PHASA (or at least those hunting there professionally do), but the rules have to be monitored and enforced. Even SAPA's 96 hour rule seems to have been observed at least as much in the breach in practice - I have known of lions hunted within a day of release.

 

[Philip Glass]

I am terribly disappointed in DSC. This is THE SLIPPERY SLOPE! Why is a lion different than a sable or WT deer? I wrote a letter to Cory Mason Ex Director of DSC on this and he responded quickly. I guess at the convention they made a bad decision. Where do we go from here? My recommendation has always been to have each CBL hunt pay $10,000 into lion conservation. If the SA Predator ASSN had mandated this long ago they would have a defense to USFWS and everyone else. They didn't and now here we are.
I am sorry but releasing a large lion on 10,000 acres and then hunting him can certainly be sporting. He can kill you!
Furthermore what business is it of DSC's what PHASA does? Why do we Americans have to stick our nose in everyone's business? This sounds like John McCain pandering to the liberal media. They will use this against us! I have said it before and I will say it again NONE of us would be here discussing this if it were not for fenced game ranches making Africa's cattle ranches into game ranches and thus making Safari affordable and popular. Hypocrites we are.
Regards,
Philip

 

[rinehart0050]

I am terribly disappointed in DSC. This is THE SLIPPERY SLOPE! Why is a lion different than a sable or WT deer? I wrote a letter to Cory Mason Ex Director of DSC on this and he responded quickly. I guess at the convention they made a bad decision. Where do we go from here? My recommendation has always been to have each CBL hunt pay $10,000 into lion conservation. If the SA Predator ASSN had mandated this long ago they would have a defense to USFWS and everyone else. They didn't and now here we are.
I am sorry but releasing a large lion on 10,000 acres and then hunting him can certainly be sporting. He can kill you!
Furthermore what business is it of DSC's what PHASA does? Why do we Americans have to stick our nose in everyone's business? This sounds like John McCain pandering to the liberal media. They will use this against us! I have said it before and I will say it again NONE of us would be here discussing this if it were not for fenced game ranches making Africa's cattle ranches into game ranches and thus making Safari affordable and popular. Hypocrites we are.
Regards,
Philip

Spot on Philip.

This ruling, in my mind at least, essentially discredits the entire south African conservation model. A big mistake.

Eventually, they'll have to apply this mentality to not just predators but all species. That will disqualify probably half the exhibitors at thier convention. And almost every ranch in thier own state.

 

[Philip Glass]

We have to focus not only on what is sporting but the conservation value of having these animals alive and in captivity. For instance I own Addax antelope which are extinct in the wild. Now if it were illegal to hunt them on high fenced ranches they would be extinct! Now lets look at the lion. Those 20,000 some odd lions are a genetic resource we do not want to lose. If they can't hunt them they will all be euthanized and their bones sold. Do we want that? What does DSC think will happen to these lions? As hunters we don't have to like the way everyone does business and we don't have to support them or hunt there but we shouldn't put them out of business.
What is next? God only knows.
Philip

 

[rinehart0050]

Wait until the antis find out you can hunt extinct animals in Texas. Oh Lord, I can see the social media firestorm now.

 

[Therack]

The real dollar value for the lions is in the cape, meat and bones, some of these parts sold into foreign markets. The hunter harvesting the lion is an added value to the rancher. Look closely at domesticated livestock. The animals are born and raised in small pens and sent to be slaughtered at a packing house. The cape, meat and bones are sold, sometimes into foreign markets. The only difference between the lion and the steer is the method in which it meets its fate, ultimately the end result is the same. Who wants to ban T-bone steaks? They are not fair chase or free range.

 

[SafariA]

When some of the European Hunting Associations were asked what the difference is between raised Pheasants and Lions they said children take fluffy stuffed lions to bed not pheasants...... this is where our problem lies.