Politics

[mdwest]

Agreed, it was embarrassing in the extreme. They are allowing petty grievances to overshadow our National interests. If we abandon Ukraine, or worse, back Russia, we will pay a terrible price for our arrogance. Let’s hope that they can get past this and find a reasonable path forward.

Another thing, transparency can go too far. Airing a ridiculous spectacle like this drives a wedge that will be difficult to remove. Have your difficult conversations in private.

This post wins the internet for the day.

Petty crap that is in the rearview is dictating how we move forward and deal with the miles of highway in front of us.. neither Ukraine or the US stands to gain anything positive from this..

Im all for praise in public and condemn in the closet..

Youd think that when things start to heat up, someone would have the presence of mind to either shut down the conversation and say "ok press representatives.. that's enough for today.. please exit through the doors on the left".. and then resume your argument in private... or to say "lets move on to the next topic.. we'll let this one rest for a minute, let our collective blood pressure drop a few points, and then we'll re-engage on this a little later.. we'll all benefit from cooler heads..."..

Neither party wins when both parties are acting out of emotion..

 

[Pondoro]

Why on earth should Zelenskyj consider signing Trump´s so called deal..? Every time Zelenskyj repeat that Ukraine need a military security deal Trump become evaisive...I do not for a moment think that such security will be given... Trump murmur something that civilian americans present in Ukraine will be security enough..

Trump will leave it up to Ukraine and western Europe to work this out.. Europe is right now to weak militarily to fill the void after USA..

 

[mutedblade]

A few thoughts real quick

1: The man in the funny clothes is leader until this is over. There is no incentive for him to give up power. If he truly cared about saving the lives of his countrymen, he'd agree to a ceasefire and work things out.

2. The world is overly reliant on US $. The US taxpayer said we've had enough and elected someone that is willing to make serious cuts to the budget.

3. Unelected bureaucrats are beginning to find out how competitive the private sector can be. Some feelings will be hurt along the way, but our country will be stronger because of it.

4. If you live in a country that has suckled at the teats of the American taxpayer, you're in for one helluva ride!

 

[mdwest]

Why on earth should Zelenskyj consider signing Trump´s so called deal..? Every time Zelenskyj repeat that Ukraine need a military security deal Trump become evaisive...I do not for a moment think that such security will be given... Trump murmur something that civilian americans present in Ukraine will be security enough..

Trump will leave it up to Ukraine and western Europe to work this out.. Europe is right now to weak militarily to fill the void after USA..

I think your second paragraph is the answer to your first question.

Zelenskyy doesn't have a whole lot of options.. Hes in a position where he has to consider anything and everything that might be available.

Trump is certainly an erratic partner.. but an erratic partner is better than no partner at all.. especially when your country is in tatters and doesn't have its own industrial capability or economy to continue on alone..

Europe appears to be attempting to step up.. but your point I believe is correct.. Europe isn't in a good place financially or militarily to support Ukraine the way Ukraine needs to be supported if it is to continue to keep Russia at bay, or have any chance of forcing Russia out of all of its territories..

 

[John Wasmuth]

I agree with General Jack K’s assessment.

 

[Pondoro]

Agreed. But, this war will end, short of a Russian military and governmental collapse, in a negotiated settlement simply because neither power is capable of dictating a peace. The key is to not give Russia a settlement which simply furthers its imperial aspirations. I am very much afraid that the Trump administration is operating within a "peace at all costs" framework.

I think your second paragraph is the answer to your first question.

Zelenskyy doesn't have a whole lot of options.. Hes in a position where he has to consider anything and everything that might be available.

Trump is certainly an erratic partner.. but an erratic partner is better than no partner at all.. especially when your country is in tatters and doesn't have its own industrial capability or economy to continue on alone..

Europe appears to be attempting to step up.. but your point I believe is correct.. Europe isn't in a good place financially or militarily to support Ukraine the way Ukraine needs to be supported if it is to continue to keep Russia at bay, or have any chance of forcing Russia out of all of its territories..

Did you pay attention to what Trump said in the Oval Room..? He said he is neutral..in the middle..between Ukraina and Russia.. Partners dont say that..

 

[mdwest]

Ill give you the benefit of the doubt since English is obviously not your first language..



I did hear what he said... and I believe that's exactly what he meant...

what he was OFFERING was a partnership...

Ukraine gives minerals.. and the US provides continued support...

Zelensky wanted to further negotiate what the terms would be in that partnership.. and Trump had no interest in further negotiations...



Russia also offered to partner with Trump.. They offered Ukraines minerals in exchange for something (no more US involvement)..

Just like Zelensky wanted to further negotiate with Trump before he partnered with the US to achieve a joint objective (peace).. Trump has wanted to further negotiate to see what kind of deal he could strike with Zelensky before he made a decision on the Russian deal..


That is what partnering means.. two parties joined in the interest of a common objective..

What they were supposed to be talking about today was the common objective of peace.. and how they want to get there..

if the objectives arent common or the path to get there isn't agreed upon.. then there wont be a partnership..

Zelenskyy is looking very hard for a partner.. he needs all of the partners he can get..

 

[Red Leg]

This post wins the internet for the day.

Petty crap that is in the rearview is dictating how we move forward and deal with the miles of highway in front of us.. neither Ukraine or the US stands to gain anything positive from this..

Im all for praise in public and condemn in the closet..

Youd think that when things start to heat up, someone would have the presence of mind to either shut down the conversation and say "ok press representatives.. that's enough for today.. please exit through the doors on the left".. and then resume your argument in private... or to say "lets move on to the next topic.. we'll let this one rest for a minute, let our collective blood pressure drop a few points, and then we'll re-engage on this a little later.. we'll all benefit from cooler heads..."..

Neither party wins when both parties are acting out of emotion..

Normally, usually, most of the time national interests eventually triumph over every other issue or emotion (sadly, there are also fairly numerous examples where they didn't). A long term economic partnership with the US is in both nation's interests. In many ways it would offer Ukraine more security than NATO membership. Again, I would offer Saudi Arabia as a prime example. For the US it would be a profitable arrangement while putting a soft halt to Russian ambitions in the area.

Both are stubborn leaders. After all, Zelensky hasn't been particularly frightened of Putin and his minions shooting at him, so I suspect having Trump yell at him or Vance try to lecture him is barely off putting. But it is in his interests to cut this deal. Hopefully, the men and women behind the scenes can pull it off.

 

[Altitude sickness]

This small tussle is the result of Zelenskyy ripping into Scott Bessent during their meeting. Zelenskyy completely disrespecting Bessent and thought he could talk to him like a child.

Also, Mike Pompeo and General Jack Keene say this was actually pretty mild. They have seen much worse. Many presidents have stormed out of negotiations. It’s just that it’s not normally done in front of the media.

 

[Datchew]

I found it absolutely wonderful that the little guy with the bad clothes was having none of Trump or Vance's sanctimonious BS - "I am for the world!" Seriously!?! Putin invades Ukraine, and the Ukrainian people, led by Zelensky, have the courage to fight the invader to a standstill. Therefore, they are responsible for courting World War III. Putin and Lavrov must be laughing to tears between vodka shots. I think they should award Trump a Hero of the Motherland award. Thank God a large number of republican senators aren't complete Trump sycophants.

I think it is worth reflection that the two places that will see these clips played the most will be MAGA world sites and Russian State TV.

Apparently, they are still negotiating - maybe a win/win deal can yet emerge form this nonsense. Unfortunately, they have publicly put themselves in a place where neither can be perceived to have backed down.

Roughly half the planet, nearly ALL of the mainstream press propaganda machine in the West (yes... we have it too... it's not just the evil ROOSKIES!!) have been supporting publicly using NATO and other advanced weaponry from multiple countries inside Russian borders.
Like them or hate them pesky Russkies, they do possess a large nuclear arsenal.

If you don't see Zelensky and Co.'s actions as courting WW3 I suspect you also don't see the Rooskies putting weapons in Cuba in the 1960's as courting WW3 either.

 

[mdwest]

Normally, usually, most of the time national interests eventually triumph over every other issue or emotion (sadly, there are also fairly numerous examples where they didn't). A long term economic partnership with the US is in both nation's interests. In many ways it would offer Ukraine more security than NATO membership. Again, I would offer Saudi Arabia as a prime example. For the US it would be a profitable arrangement while putting a soft halt to Russian ambitions in the area.

Both are stubborn leaders. After all, Zelensky hasn't been particularly frightened of Putin and his minions shooting at him, so I suspect having Trump yell at him or Vance try to lecture him is barely off putting. But it is in his interests to cut this deal. Hopefully, the men and women behind the scenes can pull it off.

for every time we might not see exactly eye to eye on something, there's at least a couple of times we are in lockstep agreement with each other.. this is definitely one of them..

Zelensky needs this deal.. it is in Ukraines best interest.. even if the deal isn't perfect or even "good" for Ukraine.. it is much better than the alternative..

And I think its in the US's best interest as well..

I just hope both parties are sensible enough to see it and do what it takes to get this thing done.. and done quickly..

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Normally, usually, most of the time national interests eventually triumph over every other issue or emotion (sadly, there are also fairly numerous examples where they didn't). A long term economic partnership with the US is in both nation's interests. In many ways it would offer Ukraine more security than NATO membership. Again, I would offer Saudi Arabia as a prime example. For the US it would be a profitable arrangement while putting a soft halt to Russian ambitions in the area.

Both are stubborn leaders. After all, Zelensky hasn't been particularly frightened of Putin and his minions shooting at him, so I suspect having Trump yell at him or Vance try to lecture him is barely off putting. But it is in his interests to cut this deal. Hopefully, the men and women behind the scenes can pull it off.

It would be interesting to know what the public sentiment is in Ukraine. It would seem that would be a factor for Zelensky to consider. I never seem to see much in this regards.

 

[Altitude sickness]

JD was on the muscle because of the way Zelenskyy treated Bessent. Total disrespect

 

[Datchew]

I can't argue with the serious of the position that Zelensky find himself in

However - he was belittled and played, just so Trump could grab some mineral wealth

Trump has created a schism in western alliances - for what? A few quid?

I'm not a fan of the EU but I hope that the Nations of Europe find a backbone and step into the void

Suddenly that book that he didn't write doesn't seem so clever

oh FFS.
Did you perhaps mis-type?

You think Trump created a schism in western alliances?
For mineral wealth?

I thought this was about
first - (everyone together now!) "Unprovoked Invastion"
2nd - Freedom and Democracy
3rd - (to refresh memories here) Ukraine sits on ‘trillion dollars worth of minerals that could be good for our economy’ - Senator Lindsey Graham. September 2024.
Note that is decidedly BEFORE Trump was elected, much less in office.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Scott is hardly a sycophant

 

[Datchew]

no disagreement from me on that... while Im not one to go on about "Trump isn't Presidential"... I do expect a certain amount of decorum when world leaders meet.. whether the subject matter is good, bad, friendly, or unfriendly..

Im just observing that world leaders generally have large teams that prepare them in great detail for these type of meetings.. and they usually know exactly what they are walking into, what to expect, and are prepared to respond no matter which direction a conversation goes.. this is especially true when they know they're going to be "live" in front of the media, etc..etc..

And Zelenskyy didn't appear to be prepared for what just happened..

It looked like a linear ambush.. that he walked into, and then couldn't escape..

This.
Your prior comments about Zelensky misreading the battlefield are spot on.
I agree he has balls and it's admirable... but discretion is the better part of valor and wot wot.

It seems too many are hung up on pearl clutching and don't see the cold hard facts, outcomes, and strategies.

I also would love more professionalism and decorum but the hyperfocus on the pleasantries and the lack of real grit and good decisions are what's screwed up this country for the past 40+ years.
Now it's time to fix it. And fixing ain't always pretty.

 

[Tanks]

JD was on the muscle because of the way Zelenskyy treated Bessent. Total disrespect

Bessent tried to get Zelenskyy to sign away the mineral wealth of Ukraine while agreeing to a "peace" brokered by the US and Russia where Russia dictates the terms. Bessent admitted as much on Bloomberg.

I'd be disrespectful as well.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

Zelensky stepped in it, plain and simple. Trump is not a complicated personality to understand; again, read the book.
Here’s the checklist if Z decides to come back:

Put on some sort of a tie.
Bring your hot made for TV wife.
Treat Trump like your patron.
Don’t walk away without an agreement because the next time you come back the offer you could’ve had last week has depreciated noticeably.

 

[spike.t]

Post from OFF TOPIC SHOW

Trump has issued an official statement following the meeting with Zelensky. The deal is off. Zelensky is not ready for peace and America will not be made a f...

youtube.com

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Bessent tried to get Zelenskyy to sign away the mineral wealth of Ukraine while agreeing to a "peace" brokered by the US and Russia where Russia dictates the terms. Bessent admitted as much on Bloomberg.

I'd be disrespectful as well.

So then why did Zelensky even bother making the trip?