Politics

[fourfive8]

Remember back in 2018 when Trump told Germany to NOT rely on Russia for energy and the Germans openly laughed at him......

https://www.reuters.com/article/markets/currencies/trump-lashes-germany-over-gas-pipeline-deal-calls-it-russias-captive-idUSKBN1K10VH/

Yep, IIRC, it was Angela Merkel specifically.

 

[Fastrig]

I do not mean this to sound trite, but if I have the option of believing your neighbor or an internationally monitored referendum in which nearly 85% of the population participated and over 92% voted for independence from Russia, I'll pay a lot more attention to the referendum. Secondly, the provinces of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia are in southern Ukraine. Kharkiv Province is in eastern Ukraine, staunchly independent of Russia, and fought a successful guerilla campaign for the first year of the war until the Russians were driven out by the Ukrainian army. The capital, Kyiv, is in Eastern Ukraine and is staunchly Western in outlook.

The largest pro-Russian minorities are in Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk. Much like the exploitation of the Vietcong in South Vietnam, whose sympathizers made up at most 30% of the population, the Russians were able to exploit the pro-Russian minority in Donetsk to destabilize the province setting the conditions for invasion.

Xi and Putin reached an agreement with respect to this invasion because Xi saw the opportunity to recreate a belligerent Russian military state that would threaten Western Europe and US interests thus diverting our ability to focus on the Western Pacific. If Russia emerges from this with a victory, it will have regained the momentum it needs to embark on just such a roll, as it replaces its battered forces with a truly modernized army. Hence, what happens in Ukraine is a critical US national interest.

That the US can not afford to support Ukraine is the single most nonsensical argument to make about our involvement. Since the beginning of the war, 3 1/2 years ago, we have provided about 165 billion in support, and much of that was simply an accounting drill as we handed over mothballed military equipment and aging munitions stocks. During the same period the US government spent Nineteen point Three Trillion Dollars! What we have provided in support, truly isn't even roundoff money. As a cost of securing a critical national interest, it is a miniscule investment compared to far more expensive and questionable outlays made over the last fifty years.

Not disagreeing on the International maneuvering going on, just relaying what One Ukrainian told me...also, I take it with a grain of salt as I've seen the opposite from other sources, but it is interesting when you hear this stuff from an actual Ukrainian instead of the talking head media type.

On the finance side of things, we are going to have to agree to disagree. We are spending a Lot more than the 165 BILLION in Europe for THEIR defense, and from an "enemy" the Europeans are quite capable of defending against themselves without us. We are billioning ourselves into bankruptcy, not picking just the Ukraine here. ALL of this stuff is adding up to Trillions in debt. We simply can not afford all of these expenditures. Everyone has their supported "piece" that "doesn't add up to much" in the scheme of things....problem is everyone of those pieces added together is bankrupting this country so, Yes, it is a big deal in the total scheme of things. Up to this point, everyone has been ignoring the huge elephant in the room, the potential bankruptcy of the US, and not do anything about it. Just spend, spend, spend. If the US collapses financially, this Ukraine war is going to seem like a war game compared to the world wide chaos that will follow. From my perspective, and I'm not alone here, the best thing for world security and US security is to get our fiscal house in order and get this debt reduced greatly or eliminated. That puts us in a position of power, what we have now is a position of weakness.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Your #6 is incorrect.

Also, no one since Hitler has threatened or wants to invade Russia. It’s paranoia by Putin or he doesn’t want NATO membership for Ukraine and other countries so he can take them. NATO is a defensive alliance.

Yes, I acknowledged that #6 was wrong in my last post. I also never suggested it was reasonable for Putin to think NATO had plans to invade Russia albeit NATO has expanded and is now ever larger. But he has himself in part to thank for that.

I do think however there may be a bit of paranoia in the west no matter how this ends up. Whether Russia is completely removed from Ukraine or if they still hold some portion of the country, it will be in no military condition to take on NATO.

They will certainly rebuild their military, but this will take a long time. I'm not sure if or even when Russia would truly be in a position to win a war against NATO.

In other words, Ukraine not withstanding, NATO is the real victor in this blunder of Putins.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

I don't know what the CIA is trying to sell. Everybody knows the Ark of the Covenant was found by Professor Henry "Indiana" Jones in 1936 and is now stored in an unnamed Smithsonian warehouse. This was well documented in 1981, I'm not sure why it's even a question.

 

[Red Leg]

Not disagreeing on the International maneuvering going on, just relaying what One Ukrainian told me...also, I take it with a grain of salt as I've seen the opposite from other sources, but it is interesting when you hear this stuff from an actual Ukrainian instead of the talking head media type.

On the finance side of things, we are going to have to agree to disagree. We are spending a Lot more than the 165 BILLION in Europe for THEIR defense, and from an "enemy" the Europeans are quite capable of defending against themselves without us. We are billioning ourselves into bankruptcy, not picking just the Ukraine here. ALL of this stuff is adding up to Trillions in debt. We simply can not afford all of these expenditures. Everyone has their supported "piece" that "doesn't add up to much" in the scheme of things....problem is everyone of those pieces added together is bankrupting this country so, Yes, it is a big deal in the total scheme of things. Up to this point, everyone has been ignoring the huge elephant in the room, the potential bankruptcy of the US, and not do anything about it. Just spend, spend, spend. If the US collapses financially, this Ukraine war is going to seem like a war game compared to the world wide chaos that will follow. From my perspective, and I'm not alone here, the best thing for world security and US security is to get our fiscal house in order and get this debt reduced greatly or eliminated. That puts us in a position of power, what we have now is a position of weakness.

I hear, even sympathize with the "those pieces argument," but when a middle class family is facing $150,000 in credit card and auto debt, cutting the children's school supplies is not a fiduciarily meaningful or intelligent place to start reducing the family's obligations.

How much are we "spending" on Europe's defense? If you have a number in mind, explain how you reach it. No nation contributes to a NATO budget. There is an agreement among the members of the alliance that each will commit 2% of their GDP to their defense budget. Currently, 23 of 32 member nations meet or exceed that goal. This is the highest number since the commitment goal was established in 2014 (with ten years to reach it). We have Mr. Putin to thank for that increase, not Donald Trump.

However, the simple truth is that should Europe never reach its commitments as a whole or should every nation exceed them, neither will have a meaningful impact on US force structure. Europe, regardless what JD Vance or Tucker Carlson would like to believe, will remain a critical area of US national interest, and we must be prepared to carry out unilateral military operations in that theater. Increased European capability would have the effect of allowing us to redirect resources toward the Pacific and that is a reasonable goal for encouraging greater European defense commitments. But not one penny of that affects Europe's place in our hierarchy of national interests.

"From my perspective, and I'm not alone here, the best thing for world security and US security is to get our fiscal house in order and get this debt reduced greatly or eliminated. That puts us in a position of power, what we have now is a position of weakness"

While laudable, due to all those pesky and irrefutable international economic truths, we do not have the luxury of running away from the world while we balance our checkbook. We have to continue to protect the one while we do the other. With respect to Europe, ceding Russia a victory in Ukraine and dismantling the Atlantic Alliance would be one of the worst possible strategic options available to us.

 

[deewayne2003]

I hope they'll laugh at him again if he suggests they should resubmit themselves to Russian economic bondage.

I doubt it, they seem to do what is convenient in the moment and rely on USA to work out the details of their next existential crisis.......

July 11th 2018
"Trump, meeting reporters with NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, before a NATO summit in Brussels, said it was "very inappropriate" that the United States was paying for European defense against Russia while Germany, the biggest European economy, was supporting gas deals with Moscow."

I mean they are so worried about Putin, but fund his war machine with energy purchases while at the same time spending their own money on anything but military readiness.

Is it not a national embarrassment to show up to joint military exercises with wooden poles painted black instead of actual machine guns?.... you would think that would have been a wakeup call back in 2015!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/19/germanys-army-is-so-under-equipped-that-it-used-broomsticks-instead-of-machine-guns/

 

[Foxi]

Yep, IIRC, it was Angela Merkel specifically.

Yes, but we didn't want to buy the expensive, environmentally harmful fracking gas from the USA and build the terminals for it either.

 

[deewayne2003]

Yes, but we didn't want to buy the expensive, environmentally harmful fracking gas from the USA and build the terminals for it either.

LMFAO!...... Gotta love you Germans, you'll believe anything to keep from admitting you were wrong or even worse.....that Trump was right!

So the Russian gas is environmentally positive? LOLOLOL

"There are rumors that Gazprom bankrolls anti-fracking campaigns and organizations, particularly in Europe, to maintain its dominance in gas, including the profits and political leveraging power that gas gives Russia officials over Europe."

Russia and fracking

Russia is the world's largest exporter of natural gas. The country's state-owned energy company, Gazprom, supplies about 25 percent of the fuel in the European Union through a pipeline in Ukraine.[1]

www.gem.wiki

Yet Russia has started their own fracking....

Russia Advances Domestic Fracking in Technology Push

Russia has scored a major victory in its technological sovereignty drive by developing the country's first hydraulic fracturing fleet.

www.energyintel.com

Every German commenting online be like.....

 

[Pondoro]

By now it should be clarified that Putin really is not pursuing peace..the talks they participate in is probably just for buying more time..

Any cease fire will probably be used for strenghtening positions and re-deploy forces along the front..

How on earth can there be a lasting peace..the russians will not accept foreign troops to maintain either a cease fire nor as peace keepers..?

And there is no talk about Russia paying for war destruction..?

Clearly the americans who participate do not understand that the russians have no scruples...look at the insane losses they have on the battlefield..no remorse whatsoever..

There will not be any progress unless Trump fathoms that he must pressure Russia much harder..until then these talks are worthless..

 

[deewayne2003]

By now it should be clarified that Putin really is not pursuing peace..the talks they participate in is probably just for buying more time..

Any cease fire will probably be used for strenghtening postions and re-deply forces along the front..

How on earth can there be a lasting peace..the russians will not accept foreign troops to maintain either a cease fire nor as peace keepers..?

And there is no talk about Russia paying for war destruction..?

Clearly the americans who participate do not understand that the russians have no scruples...look at the insane losses they have on the battlefield..no remorse whatsoever..

There will not be any progress unless Trump fathoms that he must pressure Russia much harder..until then these talks are worthless..

What happened to the meeting with Zelenskyy in Europe?......

Still waiting on European leaders to do anything meaningful; unless their plan is just to sit around and bitch about how the USA hasn't cleaned up the EU shit show, after they funded Putin's war machine with energy purchases.

While at the same time having no supplies on hand to deal with the Russian army that the EU is funding.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

What happened to the meeting with Zelenskyy in Europe?......

Still waiting on European leaders to do anything meaningful; unless their plan is just to sit around and bitch about how the USA hasn't cleaned up the EU shit show, after they funded Putin's war machine with energy purchases.

While at the same time having no supplies on hand to deal with the Russian army that the EU is funding.

Zelensky according to Fox is saying Putin is sick and not long for this world.

 

[Pondoro]

What happened to the meeting with Zelenskyy in Europe?......

Still waiting on European leaders to do anything meaningful; unless their plan is just to sit around and bitch about how the USA hasn't cleaned up the EU shit show, after they funded Putin's war machine with energy purchases.

While at the same time having no supplies on hand to deal with the Russian army that the EU is funding.

There ARE suppiles on hand..for Ukraine...in Poland. Trump ordered them stopped.

 

[Scott CWO]

Yes, I acknowledged that #6 was wrong in my last post. I also never suggested it was reasonable for Putin to think NATO had plans to invade Russia albeit NATO has expanded and is now ever larger. But he has himself in part to thank for that.

I do think however there may be a bit of paranoia in the west no matter how this ends up. Whether Russia is completely removed from Ukraine or if they still hold some portion of the country, it will be in no military condition to take on NATO.

They will certainly rebuild their military, but this will take a long time. I'm not sure if or even when Russia would truly be in a position to win a war against NATO.

In other words, Ukraine not withstanding, NATO is the real victor in this blunder of Putins.

I agree and as many on AH have stated, including the General and other former military personnel, the outcome will be a negotiated solution with some boundary changes, not a military solution, unless the USA walks away from Ukraine.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

By now it should be clarified that Putin really is not pursuing peace..the talks they participate in is probably just for buying more time..

Any cease fire will probably be used for strenghtening positions and re-deploy forces along the front..

How on earth can there be a lasting peace..the russians will not accept foreign troops to maintain either a cease fire nor as peace keepers..?

And there is no talk about Russia paying for war destruction..?

Clearly the americans who participate do not understand that the russians have no scruples...look at the insane losses they have on the battlefield..no remorse whatsoever..

There will not be any progress unless Trump fathoms that he must pressure Russia much harder..until then these talks are worthless..

I don't think anyone in the USA on this board or otherwise is defending Putin. We know he's a dirtbag.

My question for you is what would be a satisfactory end to this war and how would you accomplish that?

 

[deewayne2003]

There ARE suppiles on hand..for Ukraine...in Poland. Trump ordered them stopped.

I'm talking about the BILLIONS of NATO funds that Germany was supposed to be paying into for decades; after all as the EU's largest economy, common sense would dictate that you would actually have enough supplies on hand in your own borders to meet your NATO obligations.

Instead Germany has sat on their hands and spent YOUR euros on migrants and until Germany steps up and starts to spend the billions they promised to spend years ago.... any worries you have about Russia taking any part of European freedom lays squarely at your feet - Or at least Angela Merkel.

Again.... Trumps fault ..... Trumps Fault.... Trumps fault ........ is all the Europeans can say, well except for Germans

You have your own catch phrase....

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I don't think anyone in the USA on this board or otherwise is defending Putin. We know he's a dirtbag.

My question for you is what would be a satisfactory end to this war and how would you accomplish that?

Satisfactory? I don't think that exists. I'd settle for a return to the pre-war borders, Russia paying for every bit of the destruction caused, and Putin hanging from a tree. Paraphrasing Augustus McCrae "I'll say this, Putin; you're the kind of man it's a pleasure to hang. If all you can talk is guff, you can talk it to the Devil."

Yeah, I know. It's not going to happen. But that would be a satisfactory outcome.

 

[deewayne2003]

Satisfactory? I don't think that exists. I'd settle for a return to the pre-war borders, Russia paying for every bit of the destruction caused, and Putin hanging from a tree. Paraphrasing Augustus McCrae "I'll say this, Putin; you're the kind of man it's a pleasure to hang. If all you can talk is guff, you can talk it to the Devil."

Yeah, I know. It's not going to happen. But that would be a satisfactory outcome.

I agree with you @Tundra Tiger , but I think @PHOENIX PHIL was asking a European to express an opinion on how this should play out that would include more substance than.....

"Putin is bad and this is Trumps Fault!"

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Satisfactory? I don't think that exists. I'd settle for a return to the pre-war borders, Russia paying for every bit of the destruction caused, and Putin hanging from a tree. Paraphrasing Augustus McCrae "I'll say this, Putin; you're the kind of man it's a pleasure to hang. If all you can talk is guff, you can talk it to the Devil."

Yeah, I know. It's not going to happen. But that would be a satisfactory outcome.

Okay, but you didn't say what your plan would be for achieving that outcome. BTW, when I said satisfactory, that was meant to imply not necessarily the best outcome.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Okay, but you didn't say what your plan would be for achieving that outcome. BTW, when I said satisfactory, that was meant to imply not necessarily the best outcome.

Just venting a little Phil... A guy can hope, can't he?

 

[Wheels]

This will hit Europe especially hard. The EU automakers who are assembling in Mexico for the American market have just found their plants superfluous. Look for EU automakers to start building plants in America if they still want the American market.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/trump-says-us-will-charge-25-tariff-all-cars-not-made-us-2025-03-26/