Politics

[mdwest]

Do you think this guy showed good enough judgement and emotional control to keep his job?

Absolutely.

If we fired every cop that made an arrest that went wrong, there would be no more cops.

He committed no crime. Again, that’s not my opinion, that’s the opinion of the senior most law enforcement official in his state and an actual expert in criminal law..

He didn’t violate policy or procedure… again, not my opinion, that’s the position taken by the department chief and the FOP President.. two guys that have likely been involved in hundreds of investigations of OCPD officers during their careers based on the positions they have held..

So what exactly are you going to fire him for?

No civil suit has been filed as of yet.. and the department hasn’t had to defend its practices or its officer in this case (although that might happen in the future)…

Fire him, and he’ll sue the department, and win… and win big…

Once again, there is a reason that everyone is standing behind him…

You’re just refusing to attempt to even understand, much less see it…

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

You said that if it was a 30 yr old white guy that nobody would have cared. It's untrue and a cop out which is also why you brought race into it.

Here's a simple question that might bring our views into clearer light.

Do you think this guy showed good enough judgement and emotional control to keep his job?

Not going to argue with you or the posts you've made on this topic. I put a certain amount of blame on the old man for simply not sighing the ticket and moving on. He bears some responsibility for escalating the situation.

At the same time, given that even the AG and the police leadership has said the officer was within procedure. Even as such however, an old man took a throw down that could've in fact killed him as it was mentioned he had a brain bleed. Imagine if that had been a little worse.

So I don't completely excuse the officer here either. But it's easy to sit back and make conclusions on the very few facts we have from a video that in my opinion leads to as many if not more questions than answers.

Whatever the case, we can complain all we want, but complaints without solutions are useless. What would you propose given not just this particular situation but taking into account the thousands of traffic stops that take place everyday across the country?

Regarding the video @Brent in Az posted, that's a bit more clear. That is a police officer who had been previously disciplined for prior such actions. Seems clear to me he's in need of career change.

 

[BJH65]

I'm a tax paying American citizen who might possibly be subjected to the ridiculous actions of garbage cops. I'll comment if I see fit. Especially in this case where it must have taken years of training to learn this technique. That's sarcasm.

PO's are no different than anything else in life. They can be in the wrong too even if some of them take offense.

At best this guy belongs behind a desk. Definitely not in public and should be fired.




With all due respect, some of us aren't simpletons and we're fully aware of how the world works and we don't need to be PO's or do ride along's to have a clue about the job.

BTW the gang member earned what he got that day. That's what happens when you are dangerous and force someone to stop you on the run. He didn't necessarily deserve it but that's how the situation played out due to his stupidity. Maybe his jacked up teeth served as a positive reminder later in life.

If you are a California taxpayer, thank you for funding my pension. There are thousands of police encounters with people everyday that are peacefully resolved. While I don’t know you, I doubt you would refuse to sign a citation or put your hands on an officer so I doubt you’ll be subjected to use of force like this. Nor do I think this was a specific arrest control technique, the officer simply forced him to the ground.

I understand your point of view nor do I think you’re a simpleton. I do find your comment that you have no need to go on a police ride along because you have a clue about their job rather telling. No offense, but I find that somewhat close minded. While the COPS film crew filmed with us several times throughout my career, I wrote a proposal to executive staff to imbed a local news reporter in the various patrol divisions so the public can see everything unedited. It was disregarded.

Nor have I ever encountered a “blue wall of silence” condoning misconduct by other officers. I and others had no problem in administering discipline leading up to and including termination and unfortunately on some occasions arrest and prosecution. Funny, this was always done internally without pressure or knowledge from the public or media. It wasn't until after an officer was terminated or arrested and criminally charged was it released to the media.

Yes, the optics look bad. I can tell you I was very aware of optics having deployed to numerous protests, civil disturbances and riots both as an officer and later as a tactical and incident commander. I tended to use pressure point and joint manipulation techniques (pain compliance) as a low key way to gain compliance although not always effective on those under the influence of alcohol and drugs.

An officer usually has more than one option, such as reaching into a bag of tools if you will to effect an arrest. While I may not have chosen that method, forcing a 70 year old frail appearing man to the hard ground in order to maintain control after he assaulted the officer, I believe it was an option although not acceptable to many people who watched this video. Since I’m already beating a dead horse, I’ll move on.

 

[wesheltonj]

From the AP article:

“As attorney general, I will not permit Oklahoma police officers to face criminal prosecution for conduct adhering to their training,” Drummond said in a statement. “While the outcome of this incident is unquestionably devastating for Mr. Vu and his family, I do not believe the officer exhibited criminal intent.”

Pretty much what I have been saying all along...

No one has to like it.. but the AG found that the officer acted in accordance with his training and that the officer exhibited no criminal intent...

If the academy taught him to do this.. his departments policies support him doing this.. and he had no actual intent to cause those injuries to Vu (he certainly intended to control him... but lacked intent to crack his skull).. then his is just the outcome of someone resisting a police officers lawful order(s)...

If the people of Oklahoma don't like police policies or don't like particular aspects of police training, there are proper ways to go about change.. Vu's approach isn't the proper one..

Also as stated earlier, there is A LOT of information missing here that people not involved in law enforcement or the criminal justice system are likely not looking for..

like.. why was Vu out of his vehicle? For a basic traffic stop it is very uncommon to ask the driver (much less the passenger as well) to step out of the vehicle unless there is cause....

So.. what was that cause?

Same for the passenger? Why was she out of the vehicle? what was that cause?

If the officer asked them to step out, there's a reason for that (he's planning on towing the vehicle? he's planning on arresting the driver? he suspects the driver of another crime (intoxication or something else?) that he needs to investigate? (these are just a few possibilities)...

If the people just stepped out on their own, that is a pretty significant problem.. that presents risk to the officer and potentially to the driver and passenger..


One thing I likely would have done differently (doesn't mean Im right or the officer is wrong.. its simply a different approach) is as soon as Vu said "Im ready to go to jail", my response would have been "not a problem sir, turn around, face away from me, and place your hands behind your back"...

There would have been no further discussion.. at that point Vu had been told to sign or he was going to jail, and Vu had affirmed he wasn't going to sign and was ready to go to jail...

If Vu didn't immediately turn and face away from me and put his hands behind his back, I would have taken physical control of him..

The officer didn't need to wait for Vu to sshuush him or to put his hands on him.. Vu had already crossed the line and the officer had probable cause to make his arrest..

The officer actually (IMO) was still trying to NOT take Vu to jail at that point and was trying to reason with him..

In my experience "verbal judo" has the potential to be effective for about the first minute or so of an encounter.. after that if someone isn't being reasonable, the chances of them suddenly becoming reasonable is incredibly small..

Of course the AP article say Republican AG took over the case and dismissed, but fails to state the local DA is a D and took money from George Soros Open Society. Always more to the story.

 

[YancyW]

You and the Attorney General of the State of Oklahoma… a former USAF officer, graduate of Georgetowns law school (a top rated school), with 30 years of experience prosecuting criminals as an Asst AG before becoming that states top law enforcement official, clearly disagree on this officer… you also disagree with the FOP President that has more than 20 years of law enforcement experience in Oklahoma… and you also disagree with the OCPD Chief that is keeping him employed who has 32 years on the job in the same city..

I suppose your opinion is more valuable and more accurate than theirs combined…

If you look at trends in American law enforcement.. this sort of unity in command when it comes to officers actions in question isn’t common….

Look at what happened in Minneapolis… Ferguson, and other locations… the agencies and police administration turn on their officers as often as not

There is a reason they are standing behind him

I know Gentner Drummond, he is a very good man, and he is no homer for law enforcement. I have zero doubt he made this decision because he thought it was right, not because he wanted to just cover for LE.

I actually don't agree with some you have said, but you are spot on about Drummond.

 

[Datchew]

I'll say it again
It's easy to love and admire or hate and disrespect Leo's and way too easy to do so from an armchair quarterback perspective.

It's a tough job. I don't think they get nearly as much respect, honor, and appreciation as they deserve.

God bless our LEO'S.

 

[CJW]

Whatever the case, we can complain all we want, but complaints without solutions are useless. What would you propose given not just this particular situation but taking into account the thousands of traffic stops that take place everyday across the country?

Regarding the video @Brent in Az posted, that's a bit more clear. That is a police officer who had been previously disciplined for prior such actions. Seems clear to me he's in need of career change.

I don't see that much of anything can be done when even a couple of cop's on here won't acknowledge that the force was at all excessive. One in fact said he would do the same thing and gave an emphatic "absolutely
he should keep his job". Most traffic stops end well but I'm apparently in the minority who thinks this is a garbage cop.

Maybe the cop should have arrested him when he said he wanted to go to jail???

 

[CJW]

Absolutely.

If we fired every cop that made an arrest that went wrong, there would be no more cops.

He committed no crime. Again, that’s not my opinion, that’s the opinion of the senior most law enforcement official in his state and an actual expert in criminal law..

He didn’t violate policy or procedure… again, not my opinion, that’s the position taken by the department chief and the FOP President.. two guys that have likely been involved in hundreds of investigations of OCPD officers during their careers based on the positions they have held..

So what exactly are you going to fire him for?

No civil suit has been filed as of yet.. and the department hasn’t had to defend its practices or its officer in this case (although that might happen in the future)…

Fire him, and he’ll sue the department, and win… and win big…

Once again, there is a reason that everyone is standing behind him…

You’re just refusing to attempt to even understand, much less see it…

No I understand what you're saying but you seem to take offense that someone has a differing opinion than yours so you're trying to accuse me of being obstinant.

 

[flying sailor]

If you are a California taxpayer, thank you for funding my pension. There are thousands of police encounters with people everyday that are peacefully resolved. While I don’t know you, I doubt you would refuse to sign a citation or put your hands on an officer so I doubt you’ll be subjected to use of force like this. Nor do I think this was a specific arrest control technique, the officer simply forced him to the ground.

I understand your point of view nor do I think you’re a simpleton. I do find your comment that you have no need to go on a police ride along because you have a clue about their job rather telling. No offense, but I find that somewhat close minded. While the COPS film crew filmed with us several times throughout my career, I wrote a proposal to executive staff to imbed a local news reporter in the various patrol divisions so the public can see everything unedited. It was disregarded.

Nor have I ever encountered a “blue wall of silence” condoning misconduct by other officers. I and others had no problem in administering discipline leading up to and including termination and unfortunately on some occasions arrest and prosecution. Funny, this was always done internally without pressure or knowledge from the public or media. It wasn't until after an officer was terminated or arrested and criminally charged was it released to the media.

Yes, the optics look bad. I can tell you I was very aware of optics having deployed to numerous protests, civil disturbances and riots both as an officer and later as a tactical and incident commander. I tended to use pressure point and joint manipulation techniques (pain compliance) as a low key way to gain compliance although not always effective on those under the influence of alcohol and drugs.

An officer usually has more than one option, such as reaching into a bag of tools if you will to effect an arrest. While I may not have chosen that method, forcing a 70 year old frail appearing man to the hard ground in order to maintain control after he assaulted the officer, I believe it was an option although not acceptable to many people who watched this video. Since I’m already beating a dead horse, I’ll move on.

Took a ride, all night with a friend of mine, retired SF, in Phoenix. Yikes, on a Sunday night we had: high speed truck chase( drugs) woman thrown thru a door, small "disturbance" 40 Hispanics outside a bar( no one confessed to owning the knives on the ground) and a host of petty things. He remarked it was a quiet night. Yeah, well compared to a S2 job in Nam , I guess it was. My best bud is a Duputy, I hear more than I should. I would rather be back on the flight deck of a carrier where it is safer!

 

[Datchew]

Discipline and training are curious things

I recently listened to the podcast of tucker Carlson interviewing Tom Homan. He's the bloke trump is asking to be the new border czar.

In the interview he describes young girls being trafficked and gang raped by cartels and, most heinously, a video he was given of a cartel member skinning another man alive.

Imagine day to day interaction with the less savory portions of our population and occasionally coming into contact with such vile folk.

All the training and discipline would easily go out the window under the urge to "deal properly" with such a stripe of humanity.

Cops dealing with large amounts of variation, culture, and combinations of crazy situations are, in my opinion, in need of a healthy dose of grace and the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Doubleplay]

Discipline and training are curious things

I recently listened to the podcast of tucker Carlson interviewing Tom Homan. He's the bloke trump is asking to be the new border czar.

In the interview he describes young girls being trafficked and gang raped by cartels and, most heinously, a video he was given of a cartel member skinning another man alive.

Imagine day to day interaction with the less savory portions of our population and occasionally coming into contact with such vile folk.

All the training and discipline would easily go out the window under the urge to "deal properly" with such a stripe of humanity.

Cops dealing with large amounts of variation, culture, and combinations of crazy situations are, in my opinion, in need of a healthy dose of grace and the benefit of the doubt.

You lost me when you wrote Tucker Carlson... I wouldn't listen anything coming from that POS.

 

[LivingTheDream]

You lost me when you wrote Tucker Carlson... I wouldn't listen anything coming from that POS.

Why not? I don't agree with him on everything but it is good to listen to opinions that differ and digest that information.

Human trafficking to me is a huge issue that needs to be addressed. I actually think it should be a top priority of the FBI.

Not inline with the original reply but inline with the conversation, with every encounter I have had with LEO, has been de-escaladed quickly by saying yes sir and no sir. I haven't agreed with everyone but everyone has a choice they need make in the situation.

 

[CJW]

If you are a California taxpayer, thank you for funding my pension. There are thousands of police encounters with people everyday that are peacefully resolved. While I don’t know you, I doubt you would refuse to sign a citation or put your hands on an officer so I doubt you’ll be subjected to use of force like this. Nor do I think this was a specific arrest control technique, the officer simply forced him to the ground.

I understand your point of view nor do I think you’re a simpleton. I do find your comment that you have no need to go on a police ride along because you have a clue about their job rather telling. No offense, but I find that somewhat close minded.

Telling of what exactly? Close minded? Please explain.

I never said I wouldn't. You think I would be shocked by something but I can't see what that would be nor do I see what see a ride along in a big city has to do with THIS incident. The ONLY incident I have referred to in this discussion. I haven't insinuated anything about the job being easy, not dangerous, not stressful, undynamic if that's a word or anything else. I haven't even said that nobody has a move like this coming to them. A ride along in a gang neighborhood at night has nothing to do with this seemingly non dangerous incident in a suburb or wherever it was during daylight.

You guys should listen in on a discussion between my cop BIL and myself where we're agreeing on 99.9% of the topics and dash cam video. Maybe you could talk him into doing the ride along or two that I've asked about from time to time but he's never made work out. Maybe it would open your eyes as I get the feeling I'm being labeled as anti-cop, anti-authority, definitely close minded, etc.

While the COPS film crew filmed with us several times throughout my career, I wrote a proposal to executive staff to imbed a local news reporter in the various patrol divisions so the public can see everything unedited. It was disregarded.

Nor have I ever encountered a “blue wall of silence” condoning misconduct by other officers. I and others had no problem in administering discipline leading up to and including termination and unfortunately on some occasions arrest and prosecution. Funny, this was always done internally without pressure or knowledge from the public or media. It wasn't until after an officer was terminated or arrested and criminally charged was it released to the media.

Yes, the optics look bad. I can tell you I was very aware of optics having deployed to numerous protests, civil disturbances and riots both as an officer and later as a tactical and incident commander. I tended to use pressure point and joint manipulation techniques (pain compliance) as a low key way to gain compliance although not always effective on those under the influence of alcohol and drugs.

An officer usually has more than one option, such as reaching into a bag of tools if you will to effect an arrest. While I may not have chosen that method, forcing a 70 year old frail appearing man to the hard ground in order to maintain control after he assaulted the officer, I believe it was an option although not acceptable to many people who watched this video. Since I’m already beating a dead horse, I’ll move on.

Couldn't pay me to live in Cali at this point. Well maybe you could but it would be expensive in a location of my choice. Spent lots of time in the back country and around Lake Tahoe. Love visiting but wouldn't stay. Met lots of great people who justifiably hate almost everything about how it's run.

 

[Datchew]

You lost me when you wrote Tucker Carlson... I wouldn't listen anything coming from that POS.

That's a strong take. Why do you dislike him so much?

 

[CJW]

Not that anyone asked my opinion but Tucker Carlson seems to have lost a bit of his mind, especially since leaving Fox, or he is maybe trying to stay relevant by being controversial. That whole Russia thing he did and throwing accusations around about some people that just made you scratch your head. Maybe he's been in the crazy world of politics too long.

 

[CJW]

I subscribe to this civil rights lawyers channel.
All types of scenarios of cops getting out of line,.
He sues the shit out of many departments.

Now that I watched that one this one popped up.

Training and policy so it's OK. Cocaine up the nose? Hah!

 

[BJH65]

Telling of what exactly? Close minded? Please explain.

I never said I wouldn't. You think I would be shocked by something but I can't see what that would be nor do I see what see a ride along in a big city has to do with THIS incident. The ONLY incident I have referred to in this discussion. I haven't insinuated anything about the job being easy, not dangerous, not stressful, undynamic if that's a word or anything else. I haven't even said that nobody has a move like this coming to them. A ride along in a gang neighborhood at night has nothing to do with this seemingly non dangerous incident in a suburb or wherever it was during daylight.

You guys should listen in on a discussion between my cop BIL and myself where we're agreeing on 99.9% of the topics and dash cam video. Maybe you could talk him into doing the ride along or two that I've asked about from time to time but he's never made work out. Maybe it would open your eyes as I get the feeling I'm being labeled as anti-cop, anti-authority, definitely close minded, etc.



Couldn't pay me to live in Cali at this point. Well maybe you could but it would be expensive in a location of my choice. Spent lots of time in the back country and around Lake Tahoe. Love visiting but wouldn't stay. Met lots of great people who justifiably hate almost everything about how it's run.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote. I suggested you go on a police ride along to gain a better understanding and perspective of a patrol officer’s job. You seemed to indicate that wasn’t necessary as your already know?

I believe this incident occurred in Oklahoma City. It wasn’t Mayberry, they have their share of crime but bad things can happen anywhere, including small towns and rural locations.

When I didn’t have a trainee, which as an FTO wasn’t very often, I very much enjoyed taking various members of the public on ride alongs. Sometimes the media, college students, social workers, police chaplains etc.

Simply contact an agency you are interested in doing a ride along with and see if they offer this. I think most do this for those 18 or older. Then schedule a ride along, sign the waiver and you’re all set.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I think we all agree. That no one wants to run into a Barney with a badge. And be abused or falsely charged.

But be careful with siding and being bedfellows with liberal cop haters. Too many AGs around the country now have a bounty on charging cops and not charging criminals.

Here is a quick read on how George Soros not only funds. But controls many AGs around the country.
An excerpt
“
Even as it advocated for less prosecution of ordinary criminals, the Soros network pushed aggressive prosecution of police and conservatives. FJP connected prosecutors with the Soros-funded Anti-Defamation League, which provided them with “resources” on how to prosecute people for “extremism.” The Anti-Defamation League says that anyone who opposes Antifa is a “white supremacist,” the MRC report said.

“On at least 12 separate occasions, FJP sent out celebratory emails when one of their network prosecutors indicted or convicted a police officer. FJP implied the indictment race was some sort of competition, rejoicing that ‘in the last 18 months, [George Gascon’s] office has charged 19 police officers,’” the report said.”

Documents Reveal How George Soros Controls Prosecutors

As we prepare to enter the new year, we’re taking you back to some of The Daily Wire’s best reporting from 2024. This article was originally published on August 12. George Soros and his son, Alex, have spent at least $117 million since 2016 to reshape America’s justice system. They’ve been...

www.dailywire.com

 

[spike.t]

Surprise Surprise.......

Zimbabwe now accommodating 85,000 Chinese nationals exploiting resources under the guise of investments - Cross - NewZimbabwe.com

Spread This NewsBy Staff Reporter Zimbabwean economist Eddie Cross has expressed concern over how natural resources worth billions of dollars are being looted to China yet there is no real investment that benefits locals. In a blog titled “What is the Chinese Motivation in Zimbabwe”, Cross said...

www.newzimbabwe.com

 

[sgt_zim]

Terrorist attack in NOLA overnight. 10 dead, 30+ wounded/injured.

Looks like the Sugar Bowl might get postponed.

Ten killed, 30 injured after car plows into crowd in New Orleans just hours before Georgia Bulldogs play in Sugar Bowl

Incident happened near Canal and Bourbon Streets

www.wjcl.com

Good chat on this very thing a couple weeks ago on the Shawn Ryan Show when he interviewed Sarah Adams - episode 149.