Politics

[Corey0372]

That he should hate law enforcement as well simply fits his role as a modern Zarathustra. Nietzsche would approve.

I'm sorry, but this was too good, I had to do this.

 

[Brent in Az]

19 more days, and the American hating filth will be out of the Whitehouse

 

[wesheltonj]

Interesting. I have encountered more than a few “sovereign citizens” during my career. Most were fairly benign and a very few were extremely dangerous.

I have never seen a successful outcome for the "Sovereign Citizen" or "Republic of Texas" argument.

 

[Scott CWO]

the point is opinions dont matter...

the law matters... policy and procedure matter...

What if my opinion is CJW should be banned from AH? why would that matter? the rules of AH are clearly posted.. you haven't violated any of them... you've actually followed the rules very well (my opinion).. and we've engaged in clearly conflicted discourse without resorting to name calling, unprofessional behavior, etc.. so why should you be punished because a member might not like what you have to say?

you initially stated the officer committed attempted murder "or at least" aggravated assault.. that was clearly your opinion...

and your opinion was wrong... the law does not support your opinion in any way...

then you reverted to excessive force...

well.. again, the AG, the Chief, IA, the FOP, etc..etc..etc.. have all conducted investigations... and the requirements (criminally) to charge the officer with ANYTHING simply are not there...

Nor is there any evidence that he stepped out of line with his training, his departments policy, or his departments procedures... therefore he has not used excessive force (criminally... or in a way that the department can terminate him for)...

the civil courts might disagree.. the standard is different, and the requirements are different...

you also asked if the officer should be fired... and I asked very clearly "what for"?.. he has committed no crime.. he hasn't breached policy.. he hasn't breached training... what exactly are they going to fire him for? because someone who isn't the chief, the AG, the internal investigator, the FOP president has an opinion that isn't supported by anything other than what they saw on a newscast... who has no experience in the criminal justice system... who has no experience in law enforcement?

its perfectly ok to not like the situation... I don't think anyone in their right mind likes the outcome...

whats not ok is to persecute someone that didn't do anything wrong, per the AG, the FOP, the Chief, etc..etc.. because the outcome wasn't what was intended or what anyone likes..

I’ve been reading all these police posts. I’m definitely a supporter of LEOs and have family, clients and friends in LE. That said, I doubt the officer had intent to harm the old man but that is what happened. Quoting the law, policies and training is fine and there is not criminality here but where was this officer’s brain at? I would think a trained officer has a feel for the amount of physical force it would take to take down an old man? Clearly an officer should know the amount of force needed to take down an older person versus a younger and fit person and apply that in his brain to each situation?? Are you trying to tell me that an officer uses the same techniques and same force level for every person? If so, that’s bad training and judgement. Clearly, the officer lost his cool and used too much force. We’ve all seen LEOs use less force successfully than in this case. The officer made a mistake. Was it criminal intent? No, but it was over the top.

 

[BJH65]

same...

most were truthfully just idiots trying to play a game that they knew from the beginning they would lose.. but thought it would be fun to play...

a few were incredibly dangerous (like the two in the video posted earlier)..

the challenge is figuring out which group they belong to.. because its very rarely obvious or overt..

Id guess 75%+ of the "sovereign citizens" I dealt with were over the road truck drivers.. for some reason that industry seemed to get a lot of those guys.. they'd try to tell you they couldn't be stopped, their loads couldn't be inspected, etc..etc.. because they weren't subject to US law... then they'd try a fall back position of "only a US Marshal" has the authority to inspect them because they are on a US Interstate and not a state or local highway, etc..etc.. its was for the most part gamesmanship...

I never worked interstate interdiction.. but we'd get called out occasionally when I was working dope or swat to deal with trucker playing the sovereign citizen game because of the increased threat or the suspicion that they were hauling something other than what their manifest said...

Fortunately we had an excellent intel unit and we utilized military software programs like Palantir to track known and identified sovereign citizens so most of our encounters we knew who we were dealing with in advance which ranged from low key contacts to SWAT deployments depending on their history and background. I thought most of these individuals were mentally ill.

 

[Tanks]

Seem to be going after them in a few different countries...ie going after their own SF units....these specimens they are fighting don't or ever will abide by whatever rules of engagement are in place...so as far as I can see they have no rights....cull them simple

If the USA were doing the same thing, the Navy Seal that shot Bin Laden would be court martialed for excessive force as well. I don’t get the British anymore, they have let wokeness run amok.

 

[CJW]

Islamic terrorist identified in New Orleans attack.

Just more of the religion of peace spreading itself around.

The FBI identified the driver as Shamsud-Din Jabbar, 42, a U.S. citizen from Texas and said it is working to determine Jabbar’s potential associations and affiliations with terrorist organizations.

“We do not believe that Jabbar was solely responsible,” Alethea Duncan, an assistant special agent in charge of the FBI’s New Orleans field office, said at a news conference.

Driver rams New Year's revelers in New Orleans, killing 10; FBI doesn't believe he acted alone

Law enforcement officials have told The Associated Press that the suspect in the New Orleans crash that killed 10 people and injured 30 was killed after a firefight with police.

apnews.com

 

[BJH65]

I’ve been reading all these police posts. I’m definitely a supporter of LEOs and have family, clients and friends in LE. That said, I doubt the officer had intent to harm the old man but that is what happened. Quoting the law, policies and training is fine and there is not criminality here but where was this officer’s brain at? I would think a trained officer has a feel for the amount of physical force it would take to take down an old man? Clearly an officer should know the amount of force needed to take down an older person versus a younger and fit person and apply that in his brain to each situation?? Are you trying to tell me that an officer uses the same techniques and same force level for every person? If so, that’s bad training and judgement. Clearly, the officer lost his cool and used too much force. We’ve all seen LEOs use less force successfully than in this case. The officer made a mistake. Was it criminal intent? No, but it was over the top.

I’m certain if the officer could get in a time machine he would handle it differently as I would have on some occasions. However, we believe the officer’s use of force was within department policy which MD West explained very thoroughly and much better than I. There are situations where an officer could be within policy but may choose a different option based on their experience.

For example, I had a situation where a 5150 (mentally ill) subject threatening me with a knife was within stabbing distance of me. I was within department policy to use lethal force immediately but I chose not to on that occasion. I was able to create some space and put a barrier between us and the subject was later subdued with a 40mm less lethal round, pre taser days.

I recall another disturbance call at an assisted living facility, an elderly man in his 80’s was threatening staff with a small paring knife. I would have been within department policy to use lethal force when he attempted to stab a staff member. I had a couple seconds to decide on a course of action. Lethal force with Sig P226 40 cal? Less lethal Taser, baton? I chose to physically subdue him without incident. Had I chosen the previously mentioned options, I would have been within department policy.

Use of force policies cover a spectrum. Our department’s use of force policy was quite generous even allowing the carotid hold as less lethal force when almost every other agency either banned it’s use or considered it lethal force. Our use of force policy included size disparity. So a yoked up 200 plus lb parolee fresh out of San Quentin, Folsom, or Pelican Bay physically threatening one of our smaller statured male or female officers could have lethal force applied while I was a fit 6-3 245 would have to resort to less lethal or hands on.

Anyhow, I’ve been retired for almost 8 years now, and law enforcement continues to evolve and change just as our society does. How we handled certain situations back then within policy, following state and federal guidelines and supported by case law is no longer tolerable to society so policies and guidelines will change and have changed.

 

[Scott CWO]

I’m certain if the officer could get in a time machine he would handle it differently as I would have on some occasions. However, we believe the officer’s use of force was within department policy which MD West explained very thoroughly and much better than I. There are situations where an officer could be within policy but may choose a different option based on their experience.

For example, I had a situation where a 5150 (mentally ill) subject threatening me with a knife was within stabbing distance of me. I was within department policy to use lethal force immediately but I chose not to on that occasion. I was able to create some space and put a barrier between us and the subject was later subdued with a 40mm less lethal round, pre taser days.

I recall another disturbance call at an assisted living facility, an elderly man in his 80’s was threatening staff with a small paring knife. I would have been within department policy to use lethal force when he attempted to stab a staff member. I had a couple seconds to decide on a course of action. Lethal force with Sig P226 40 cal? Less lethal Taser, baton? I chose to physically subdue him without incident. Had I chosen the previously mentioned options, I would have been within department policy.

Use of force policies cover a spectrum. Our department’s use of force policy was quite generous even allowing the carotid hold as less lethal force when almost every other agency either banned it’s use or considered it lethal force. Our use of force policy included size disparity. So a yoked up 200 plus lb parolee fresh out of San Quentin, Folsom, or Pelican Bay physically threatening one of our smaller statured male or female officers could have lethal force applied while I was a fit 6-3 245 would have to resort to less lethal or hands on.

Anyhow, I’ve been retired for almost 8 years now, and law enforcement continues to evolve and change just as our society does. How we handled certain situations back then within policy, following state and federal guidelines and supported by case law is no longer tolerable to society so policies and guidelines will change and have changed.

Exactly.

 

[mdwest]

I’ve been reading all these police posts. I’m definitely a supporter of LEOs and have family, clients and friends in LE. That said, I doubt the officer had intent to harm the old man but that is what happened. Quoting the law, policies and training is fine and there is not criminality here but where was this officer’s brain at? I would think a trained officer has a feel for the amount of physical force it would take to take down an old man? Clearly an officer should know the amount of force needed to take down an older person versus a younger and fit person and apply that in his brain to each situation?? Are you trying to tell me that an officer uses the same techniques and same force level for every person? If so, that’s bad training and judgement. Clearly, the officer lost his cool and used too much force. We’ve all seen LEOs use less force successfully than in this case. The officer made a mistake. Was it criminal intent? No, but it was over the top.

We are actually largely in agreement on all of this..

The mistake likely wasn’t in his choice of technique… but was in the execution of it…

A mistake doesn’t mean he had any criminal intent… it also doesn’t mean he should be automatically civilly liable (the courts may find otherwise if Vu decides to sue and they look into things further…)…

It’s simply a mistake…

If the officer has a track record of making similar mistakes, there should be repercussions (he’s clearly not learning or clearly not caring to try to fix it)…

If it’s a one off.. or something there is no pattern of… that is something completely different..

I’d challenge anyone on this forum to find me one human, shy of Jesus himself that went his entire life without making numerous mistakes through their careers…

Granted, in law enforcement the stakes are higher than most other career fields.. for all parties involved…

But holding a police officer to a standard of never making mistakes is an impossible bar to get over.. no different than holding an accountant, doctor, ditch digger, or auto mechanic to a standard of perfection..

I’ve said it several times… no one likes the outcome of this situation… to include the officer I am sure…

But the outcome isn’t tied to a criminal act or an act that automatically results in termination…

 

[gbflyer]

The footage provided in the old dude vs. cop isn’t helpful to our discussion. The media has cherry picked it and has done a disservice to the officer, department, the perp, and especially the public by the partial release allowing all the speculation. Either release it all or none of it.

That old dude was being a jerk and the woman was stirring the pot. The officer was alone dealing with 2 people. Nightmare scenario. She could have put one in the back of his head. He would like to go home to his family. What was he supposed to do differently? Being old doesn’t necessitate the need of getting a pass for being a prick.

 

[Neophyte]

The fact that anyone thinks what this Officer did is appropriate or right is a big part of the problem.

Within the law, or within policy, doesn’t make it right. There are lots of things that were once legal, and considered “right” that are no longer so. I’ve noticed a big change in law enforcement since my time and not for the better. Law enforcement acts like an occupying army and most officers have lost their ability to communicate effectively to de-escalate situations. This is largely a product of their training and losing the inability to actually think thanks to our educational system.

“We don’t actually want people that think we want them dumb enough to follow orders without question.” Sadly we’ve bred a couple generations of exactly that and the IQ scores of the general population proves it.

 

[mdwest]

So why don’t you bother to answers the questions asked of you so we can consider whether your opinion is of value, or just additional garbage added in based on your vitriol that you have proudly claimed prior?

 

[Neophyte]

Mmm...is there anything you are positive about.....or don't dislike or hate?.....asking for a friend.....

There’s a lot I don’t hate or despise.
My small family, my dog, hunting, a good meal, a good rodeo, and a hopefulness that this country will one day be the beacon on the hill it was meant to be.

please post a link to the longer video you have seen... otherwise, frankly the entirety of your post is unsubstantiated bullshit.. you claim he lost his temper.. cool... prove it... you claim he showed a lack of cultural sensitivity.. cool... prove it.. you claim unnecessary force and potentially illegal force.. cool... prove it...

lets not forget that you're the guy that has gone out of his way for months to make post after post stating your dislike, distrust of all things related to government.. and to my knowledge hasn't made a positive post on this board since arriving...

Id also like to know what experience, education, or knowledge your assessments come from... you're going to make your claims... you claim to have been a cop at some point... when was that? for how long? what sized agency? what part of the country? what level of rank/position did you obtain? how long were you in patrol? did you ever work in a training capacity? If you were indeed a cop, you know every one of those questions is relevant and matters...

Lets not forget that the AG, the FOP, the Chief, most likely IA, and a host of others have seen ALL of the video from both the dash cam and the body cam, and ALL of the video from the surveillance cam.. and have interviewed ALL of the people that witnessed the event, etc.. they are not reliant on an EDITED version of the footage that a news agency chose to show you (which by the way doesn't tell a very key part of the story.. I am sure, intentionally... like.. how exactly did Vu end up out of the vehicle in the first place? and why was Vu out of the vehicle.. had Vu not gotten out of the vehicle, the incident wouldn't have happened (certainly at least not in this manner)...

So.. your version of events is supposed to trump those people full investigation of the events? your limited pervue of information trumps the much larger data dump that those people have access to? and your experience and knowledge of the criminal justice system, law enforcement, and things like law enforcement training exceeds the AG, FOP President, Chief of Police, Internal Affairs, etc?

Law enforcement if anything has steered HARD away from "going hands on" over the last 30+ years... are defensive tactics still taught? absolutely.. other hard skills like driving, shooting, radio operations, etc still taught? absolutely.. but academies these days are much, much more focused on LIABILITY than ever before.. why? because we live in a much more letigious and liability soaked world than we ever have been before.. If anything, officers get significantly more training on things like "cultural sensitivity", than they ever have been before.. most academies in fact far exceed their states requirements for the number of hours of training a police officer must undertake before commissioning them.. because of all of the additional "soft" skills training that they must now get...

Go back to the 80's.. a police academy was for the most part "hard skills" only... with a little bit of constitutional law thrown in... by the 90's, post Rodney King, things started pivoting quite a bit and "soft skills" started to get more focus... today cadets spend as much or more time in the classroom listening to someone teaching at the podium focused on "soft skills" as they do out on the range, in the gym, in the cars, etc..

Give me a couple days and if I have time I’ll be happy to post.

I’m waking up to go to work and it’s going to be a hard shift if yesterday was any indication. I never said I was a cop. I said I was law enforcement. Federal to be exact for a little over seven years.

You claim that today’s street law enforcement spend more time in the classroom. If that’s the case they’ve left common sense at the classroom door when they entered the room.

I parlayed the law enforcement job into working in the medical field and going back to school. You’re right in that I’m not a fan of what our government has become and quite frankly I’d like to see about ninety percent of it abolished although I doubt it will happen.

As for my experience trumping investigations you are doing a great job toeing the party line. Just because something is legal, or within “policy” doesn’t make it right. At one time I could legally own other people and that was considered legal and “right”.

 

[Neophyte]

@mdwest

See my post above and have a good night.
Some of us have more to do than just sit at the computer.

 

[mdwest]

I’ll be standing by waiting for your post

 

[Neophyte]

I’ll be standing by waiting for your post

Have a good night.

 

[Woodcarver]

I’ll be standing by waiting for your post

I do hope you're not holding your breath whilst standing by....

 

[HuntingGold]

I wish I had access to the dash cam footage of an older (80's maybe 70's year old) Asian woman dropping one of our young very fit officers with a kick. She wasn't even the subject of a stop! If my memory is correct, he had just concluded a traffic stop in a very tiny town and she happened to be walking by. She expressed her displeasure with him being there and he (actually a very friendly young guy) attempted to politely engage her is discussion. Watching the video, it was clear she had some martial arts training and dumped him with a snap kick. It was truly impressive what this very small older woman did to him. He was embarrassed but learned a very valuable lesson about assuming she was no threat.
Before the questions come, I cannot recall what happened with her. I almost think she just walked away without further action.

 

[sgt_zim]

Terrorist attack in NOLA overnight. 10 dead, 30+ wounded/injured.

Looks like the Sugar Bowl might get postponed.

Ten killed, 30 injured after car plows into crowd in New Orleans just hours before Georgia Bulldogs play in Sugar Bowl

Incident happened near Canal and Bourbon Streets

www.wjcl.com

Good chat on this very thing a couple weeks ago on the Shawn Ryan Show when he interviewed Sarah Adams - episode 149.

If you're not keeping track, apparently another 5 have passed on from this earth.

Osama bin Laden's son is running the show now. Their goal is 50k deaths in the US. If this morning is part of that effort, it's just a warm-up for things to come.