Politics

[mdwest]

I certainly had a few dirtbag NCO's work for and work with me at different times in my career..

but that number is probably well in line with the number of dirtbag officers I worked for and worked with...

the military isn't unlike any other career field.. it gets it share of really good people and really bad people.. the vast majority fall somewhere in the middle (i.e. the bell curve)..

that said, a key differentiator (IMO) is the military ability to do something about it... it is MUCH easier (although certainly not easy enough) to be rid of a problem soldier/sailor/airman than it is to be rid of a problem civilian in private business.. it is much easier to take corrective action on a soldier/sailor/airman and try to move them toward productive behavior and better performance than it is a civilian in private business..

the end result is you much more often than not end up with extremely good people in the SNCO corps..

certainly some slip through for "political" reasons.. or for "affirmative action" reasons.. or other less than desirable reasons.. but show me an industry where this doesn't happen...

I'd assert that it happens much less frequently in the NCO corps than it does in other places..

on a personal level I will acknowledge and very happily admit that NCO's played a MUCH bigger role in molding me into who I am as a leader today than my fellow officers ever did (peers, superiors, and subordinates)... I was blessed and privileged to have a group of SNCO's that took me under their wing as a young O, that would let me fail just enough to learn, and then bail me out in time to keep me or my career from getting hurt from my stupidity.. they took the time to show me what real leadership looked like as opposed to simply supervising or managing a person or a process.. Its been almost 30 years since I got out of the military, and many of those guys still wear capes in my eyes....

No doubt that at least during my time of service the NCO corps, and more specifically the SOF NCO corps were among the best leaders, trainers, mentors, and mission capable people in the world..

 

[PARA45]

+1 I went on active duty in 1974 at the start of the volunteer army and served three decades. Fitness standards have fluctuated over the years - always driven by the recruiting base - never in my experience by social experiments. The 1980 PFT consisted of sit-ups, push-ups, and a two-mile run. One must be faster today by nearly a minute at all age groups than I had to be in 1980. All of which is largely irrelevant because the US Army has maintained the finest noncommissioned officer corps of any military in the world. They have a long and storied history of turning those bits of human clay into the finest soldiers serving in any army anywhere.

The Air Force had some fine senior NCOs, and Chiefs when I came in back in 1983. The quotas that the AF had turned the promotions into a mess. Just like DEI now. BTW, I was attached to the Army in Honduras at Palmerola Air Base, and yes, the senior NCOs from the Army I dealt with there were sharp and stand-up guys. I also dealt with and smoke cigars with Special Ops NCOs at SOC South at Homestead ARB. Another bunch of unique individuals.

 

[Russ16]

Didn’t I see somewhere that the Village People are performing as well? I guess that puts the lefties in a bind. If I recall those guys are gay. At least that was the scuttle but back in the day.

They are and said they are happy to perform even though they didn’t vote for Trump.

 

[mdwest]

You could see things starting to shift in a weird direction though, hard to put your finger on it.

I think much of that relates to what @roverandbrew has stated in previous posts..

society changed.. and changed A LOT over the last 20+ years..

for the most part when I showed up for basic in the late 80's every recruit was reasonably fit.. we had a couple of guys that were overweight, but nothing that couldn't be fixed over a 6-8 week period of time.. I don't recall anyone in my BT company being held back or kicked out for physical fitness reasons..

and for the most part when I showed up for basic in the late 80's everyone in the recruit class actually WANTED to be a "fighter" of some sort.. while some weren't exactly "hard" people, they all joined the army wanting to be "hard"..

Ive got a guy that I hunt with a couple of times a year that just left active duty as an Infantry Officer after 10 years a couple of months ago.. his company command time was spent commanding a basic training company at Ft Benning.. which is ultimately what led him to making the decision to get out of the army rather than stay in and retire..

The quality of recruits coming into the army were nothing like the kids Im describing from my 80's intake.. they were exactly as @roverandbrew describes them.. the many were excessively overweight, many had no respect for any sort of leadership or willingness to be molded or shaped into a warfighter (these kids were all infantry recruits).. etc etc etc.. and the army had hamstrung the BT units with policies that didn't allow them to hold the recruits accountable for certain bad behaviors (to the degree that my hunting buddy would have liked)... the army needed bodies.. and standards were lowered to get those bodies into the army... unlike the 80's when I went in where there were more kids asking to join than there were jobs available, so the army could afford to be much more selective about who was allowed to join..

My buddy will concede that there were very obvious exceptions.. guys coming into the army with 11X unassigned (Ranger) contracts, and 18X (SF) contracts were generally very easy to identify even in the first few days of basic.. they were typically fit, took training seriously, and often a little bit older and more mature than the other recruits..

I think that "shift" you noticed happened in society, not in the military... bad parenting, bad schooling, bad influences online, bad influences on TV, etc..etc.. has molded today's 18 year old kid very differently than what older generations are used to...

 

[PARA45]

I certainly had a few dirtbag NCO's work for and work with me at different times in my career..

but that number is probably well in line with the number of dirtbag officers I worked for and worked with...

the military isn't unlike any other career field.. it gets it share of really good people and really bad people.. the vast majority fall somewhere in the middle (i.e. the bell curve)..

that said, a key differentiator (IMO) is the military ability to do something about it... it is MUCH easier (although certainly not easy enough) to be rid of a problem soldier/sailor/airman than it is to be rid of a problem civilian in private business.. it is much easier to take corrective action on a soldier/sailor/airman and try to move them toward productive behavior and better performance than it is a civilian in private business..

the end result is you much more often than not end up with extremely good people in the SNCO corps..

certainly some slip through for "political" reasons.. or for "affirmative action" reasons.. or other less than desirable reasons.. but show me an industry where this doesn't happen...

I'd assert that it happens much less frequently in the NCO corps than it does in other places..

on a personal level I will acknowledge and very happily admit that NCO's played a MUCH bigger role in molding me into who I am as a leader today than my fellow officers ever did (peers, superiors, and subordinates)... I was blessed and privileged to have a group of SNCO's that took me under their wing as a young O, that would let me fail just enough to learn, and then bail me out in time to keep me or my career from getting hurt from my stupidity.. they took the time to show me what real leadership looked like as opposed to simply supervising or managing a person or a process.. Its been almost 30 years since I got out of the military, and many of those guys still wear capes in my eyes....

No doubt that at least during my time of service the NCO corps, and more specifically the SOF NCO corps were among the best leaders, trainers, mentors, and mission capable people in the world..

That was my experience with them back in the 80s. Today in the AF, the NCOs would not stand up for anyone, and they would happily point the finger at you instead of standing tall and taking responsibility for their actions, but instead they would happily throw you under the bus. Not all obviously, but it seemed like a good 40-60% of the senior NCOs I dealt with in the last 10-15 years, were cowards.

 

[Doubleplay]

I always hear of these "standards" being lowered but no one can seem to tie policy changes to DEI or the "gays". My biggest issue when dealing with the newest generation of soldiers, sailors, airmen, or Marines was they were helicopter parented, out of shape from a sedentary lifestyle, or never learned respect at home. Being "gay" was in the bottom 1% of my concerns. Much rather have a gay medic than no medic at all. We trained who our nation sent us.

I'm a proud parent of a Marine officer (O5) with 18 years of service.
I know other branches are having a hard time to meet their recruiting goals and lowering standards but I know for a fact Marines are still recruiting and meeting their goals without any compromise and PT scores are still a criteria if you stand any chance of advancing in rank both for officers and NCO's.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I'll simply say my experiences with the non-commissioned officers who served with me, in both tactical and administrative positions (and which covered a pretty wide swath of the army), are reflected in my comments above.

I am trying to get my head around the notion of a company level PBO being the same as a CFO.

Not company Battalion PBO. Specifically an Engineer (Combat)(Heavy). I was responsible for the initial $65+ million dollar inventory and fiscal budget for 5 companies and 5 detachments/ attachments.

Getting this Engineer Battalion up to deployment readiness standards in less than 5 months was not an easy task. Had it not been for the support I received from the Group and Brigade Commanders in getting the additional increase in funds and equipment inventory from the initial amount of $65+m to $80+ million this battalion would not have met minimum deployment standards.

Now an $80+ million budget may not meet a major multi billion dollar corporation definition of CFO. But for multi million dollar corporations I pretty sure an $80+ million dollar budget does qualify.

 

[VertigoBE]

Well, since the last 10p have been on military officer/NCO competency, I’ll post the following here, for lack of a better suited thread. It does not merit its own thread.

I was flying last night from Berlin to Brussels, coming back from corporate meetings there. All went fine until the descent to Brussels began.

“We are preparing to land in Brussels, please switch off all your electronic devices”

So far so good, the same message which is commonly completely ignored these days. However it did not stop there:

“Do not put on airplane mode, that is not enough, your devices must be fully switched off” subsequently the stewardesses were going row through row asking people to show cell phones and check that they were indeed switched off.

Anxiety was rising. Looking outside in a European winter evening, nothing could be seen. People getting a bit nervous, higher pitched voices etc.

Up comes the pilot: “can all passengers please fully switch off all electronic devices, airplane mode is insufficient . There is very heavy fog at the Brussels airport and we will be landing by auto pilot, using radio waves from the ground. Electronic devices are disturbing these signals.”

Now everyone got a bit whiter, people gripped their armrest and in all honesty I was repeating in my head “Today is not the day, today is not the day,..” I have my babies to get to.

In the end landing went fine obviously but it did raise some questions that I hope some of our resident experts can pitch in on.

Is there a difference between airplane mode and switched off? Or was this purely a psychological tactic?

How can it be that in 2025, a 60MEUR machine containing 200 plus people can be hindered in its operation by a 500EUR device? My logical brain would say that if this is the case, phones and the like would never be permitted in the cabin, with severe penalties for those who do…

Has anyone else experienced such a request or can comment on it?

Cheers,

V.

 

[Tanks]

In airplane mode the only two signals that are active on the devices are bluetooth and WiFi. I doubt the frequencies of either are on the same frequency of radio waves from the ground. Heck, if they were, people's devices on the ground would interfere with the radio waves.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

I would say I was paying attention. Probably a lot more than you were. Actually if you were paying attention the scores for the males to max their APFT were significantly faster than they were prior to 2014. When I first entered the US Army I had to run an 11:54 2 mile run to max my APFT. Post 2014 the same age bracket had to run a 13:00 min 2 mile run to max. That had nothing to do with DEI or "Gays". The Army was not woke.

I’ll set aside your assertion that you know who I am and where I was ten years ago because you don’t, but you’re missing the point. The physical fitness standards for women weren’t passing scores for men at the time when integration was the name of the game. This was conveniently ignored in the name of expanding diversity.

 

[Red Leg]

Not company Battalion PBO. Specifically an Engineer (Combat)(Heavy). I was responsible for the initial $65+ million dollar inventory and fiscal budget for 5 companies and 5 detachments/ attachments.

Getting this Engineer Battalion up to deployment readiness standards in less than 5 months was not an easy task. Had it not been for the support I received from the Group and Brigade Commanders in getting the additional increase in funds and equipment inventory from the initial amount of $65+m to $80+ million this battalion would not have met minimum deployment standards.

Now an $80+ million budget may not meet a major multi billion dollar corporation definition of CFO. But for multi million dollar corporations I pretty sure an $80+ million dollar budget does qualify.

Interesting organizational arrangement. In the battalions and brigades which I commanded or in which I served, the PBO, a WO (sometimes dual hatted as the maintenance WO), managed property. If also the maintenance WO, he would have a key role in unit readiness. Maintaining property accountability was obviously also an important responsibility. Those respective roles were, in turn, under the immediate supervision of the XO and S4. As a commander, I looked to them and subordinate commanders at company or battalion level as owning unit readiness. As far as the unit budget, I, the XO and S4 managed it. It was not a PBO responsibility.

 

[1dirthawker]

If they can't afford it then it is time to sell and move.

spoken like a true elitist.