Politics

[WAB]

Yes I realize all of those things that people who love cheap labor have been grumbling about for the last decade.

Most of our troubles with jobs being unfilled is a disconnect of employers thinking that raising todays wages to the point they should have been 10+ years ago is going to motivate people; that combined with most of these open jobs being of the dead end variety.

I recently heard a home builder belly aching about how he couldn't hire a finish carpenter for $17hr after advertising for nearly a year; to which I had to ask...... Why would anybody work for you for $17hr when they could work for either themselves or someone else just 1 hour south of here and make $100K a year?

His response....."Nobody want's to work anymore!" = The death bellow of employers who made their money off of employees whos' wages have been kept low for decades.

Same with excavation companies - They want to pay equipment operators $15hr to operate machines that cost $1Mil and wonder why they have high turnover and machines destroyed by operator error; and of course I'm the bad guy in the board room when I ask why would people operate bulldozers for $15hr when teenagers are starting at Chick-Fil-A for $15hr?

You are not wrong on your examples, but you paint a very incomplete picture. One of, if not the, largest employers of immigrant labor is agriculture. Whether it’s tree planting crews, tassling crews, harvest crews and so on. I’ve been in and around AG all my life. I can tell you with certainty that American city kids, with very few exceptions, will not work that hard, regardless of the pay. Without immigrant labor, much of this work would simply not get done.

I’m 64 and I have a hard time finding someone in their 20’s or 30’s that will work as hard as I do. I was thinning trees with my daughter’s boyfriend a few years ago. He ended up collapsing and puking his guts out. He was a gym rat and in really good shape. He was off to marine basic the following week. I’ll bet they tuned him up! The Mexican crews we get are unreal. They flat wear me out just watching them. Those folks know what hard work means.

 

[roverandbrew]

The Executive Action to label

There are people with on here who pay people to operate large equipment, so I clearly defer, but no one is paying heavy equipment operators 15 an hour. I pay guys who pick up trash and clean sites more than that and I live in a fairly low wage part of the country.

Illegal concrete finishers in Virginia are $300-$350 a day.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

The Executive Action to label

Illegal concrete finishers in Virginia are $300-$350 a day.

Did "Illegal concrete finishers in Virginia are $300-$350 a day" replace "Virginia is for Lovers" tourism themes?

 

[Russ16]

There are people with on here who pay people to operate large equipment, so I clearly defer, but no one is paying heavy equipment operators 15 an hour. I pay guys who pick up trash and clean sites more than that and I live in a fairly low wage part of the country.

Warehouse workers are beating $15 an hour in most markets. A delivery trick driver is at or over $100k in most major markets.

 

[Hunt anything]

You are not wrong on your examples, but you paint a very incomplete picture. One of, if not the, largest employers of immigrant labor is agriculture. Whether it’s tree planting crews, tassling crews, harvest crews and so on. I’ve been in and around AG all my life. I can tell you with certainty that American city kids, with very few exceptions, will not work that hard, regardless of the pay. Without immigrant labor, much of this work would simply not get done.

I’m 64 and I have a hard time finding someone in their 20’s or 30’s that will work as hard as I do. I was thinning trees with my daughter’s boyfriend a few years ago. He ended up collapsing and puking his guts out. He was a gym rat and in really good shape. He was off to marine basic the following week. I’ll bet they tuned him up! The Mexican crews we get are unreal. They flat wear me out just watching them. Those folks know what hard work means.

You’re spot on, I’ve run the harvest on our sod farm for about 20 years. In that time we’ve hired on average about 3 Americans per year . Out of all of those people only 2 have stuck around. One has been he working here for 6 years and one for 3. None of the others lasted more than a couple of weeks. We pay between 16.50 and 20.00 an hour.
That’s why we get the same H2A guys every year. They average around 60 to 65 hrs a week.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Did "Illegal concrete finishers in Virginia are $300-$350 a day" replace "Virginia is for Lovers" tourism themes?

View attachment 660258

 

[deewayne2003]

You are not wrong on your examples, but you paint a very incomplete picture. One of, if not the, largest employers of immigrant labor is agriculture. Whether it’s tree planting crews, tassling crews, harvest crews and so on. I’ve been in and around AG all my life. I can tell you with certainty that American city kids, with very few exceptions, will not work that hard, regardless of the pay. Without immigrant labor, much of this work would simply not get done.

I’m 64 and I have a hard time finding someone in their 20’s or 30’s that will work as hard as I do. I was thinning trees with my daughter’s boyfriend a few years ago. He ended up collapsing and puking his guts out. He was a gym rat and in really good shape. He was off to marine basic the following week. I’ll bet they tuned him up! The Mexican crews we get are unreal. They flat wear me out just watching them. Those folks know what hard work means.

I've been around AG my entire life as well; former FFA district president, degree in agriculture, own a farm and besides owning my own business I am also a University employee tasked with answering agriculture issues for producers.

You are correct about American city kids - These days it seems that most of them are only children who have had parents helicopter over them so they live a consequence and sweat free existence; while oddly enough paying money to workout in a gym.

As for the "They pick our lettuce" argument.......

1. Less than 1% of all illegal immigrants are involved in agriculture work, but 44% of farm laborers are illegal immigrants - Very Telling.

2. Mechanization is changing agriculture FAST - When is the last time you heard of a human being harvesting sugarcane in the USA? The Florida Crystals Corporation imported THOUSANDS of Haitians into south Florida to harvest sugarcane and when they got replaced by machines the workers were allowed to stay.

3. Means and methods - farming succulents(especially lettuce) is being moved to hydroponic cultivation and it truly is a superior product that is much more efficient, better for the environment, lowers transportation cost/loss and is much less labor intensive. - So in 10 years we are going to be needing much less farm labor than we do now.

4. Exploitation - Every farmer/rancher I've ever met loves to moan about how they don't make any money, but I know some that make FORTUNES; oddly enough the greater the wealth of farmers the more willing they are to turn a blind eye to exploitation and especially so when it comes to labor contractors who are generally the anchor babies of 1st generation illegals and these labor contractors are the modern slave drivers and YES physical violence is still very much used as a motivation...... I've seen these people first hand in agriculture and excavation, they make their money on human suffering and I wish the federal government would step into dealing with this human tracking.

What's the answer? A organized farm labor union just like Cesar Chavez wanted, but he could never get it because employers would rather exploit desperate illegals than deal with a legal organized workforce.

These programs already exist - Such as the program for South American sheep herders that are allowed to come and work in the USA and are the ones responsible for maintaining flocks of sheep on the vast ranches and leases in the western U.S.A.

 

[deewayne2003]

The Executive Action to label

Illegal concrete finishers in Virginia are $300-$350 a day.

That may well be what the slave maste..... I mean labor contractor is charging you, but I assure you the illegal is making nowhere near that.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Do you realize we have a %4 unemployment and most jobs openings are not being fulfilled even with all the illegals coming in? Our federal minimum wage still around $7.00 but I'm having a hard time to hire legal workers for $20/hr.
Or do you know our population is in a downward trend and barely stable with immigration?
Or do you understand the wealth we created in the last 40 years was done with legal /illegal labor?
Bring it on? Easier for people like us to say.

IMHO, all valid points. We ARE a nation built on many million LEGAL immigrants from countries all over the World. As you have pointed out, we continue to need immigrants to power our country forward. LEGAL immigrants. Only recently in our history has our Government allowed millions of ILLEGAL immigrants to pour through our borders in a VERY short period of time. Many/most were not properly vetted and a percentage are violent criminals and some on terrorist watch lists. The surge of fentanyl into the U.S. is directly correlated to our open borders and the Mexican cartels. They have put a tremendous financial strain on cities, counties and states who have provided services to them, not to mention further burdening law enforcement in those jurisdictions. And you can bet on ‘ol brain dead having secretly funneled Federal taxpayer money to those jurisdictions. Our immigration system needs to be revamped by Congress, but until it is, this continuing influx of ILLEGAL immigration must be thwarted at our borders at all costs.

 

[Corey0372]

You’re spot on, I’ve run the harvest on our sod farm for about 20 years. In that time we’ve hired on average about 3 Americans per year . Out of all of those people only 2 have stuck around. One has been he working here for 6 years and one for 3. None of the others lasted more than a couple of weeks. We pay between 16.50 and 20.00 an hour.
That’s why we get the same H2A guys every year. They average around 60 to 65 hrs a week.

This is pretty cursory search from the Economic Research Institute so I'm sure it doesn't apply to all of Mexico, but according to them crop farm workers in Mexico make about 77 pesos an hour, which is roughly $3.76. https://www.erieri.com/salary/job/crop-farm-worker/mexico

Of course your H2A guys will work their tails off, you're essentially paying them at least 5x what they would be making if they were doing the same work in Mexico (and probably in worse conditions in Mexico). Not to mention the H2A workers don't have to worry about actually buying a house in the US, let alone trying to raise a family and live something close to a middle class life here in the US. The money they make in the US, while meager here, goes a very long way in Mexico. If you paid an American 5x a normal US labor salary (call it $85 an hour at your place) do you think they'd stick around and endure the hard work for more than a couple of weeks? I think they would.


You meet lots of American guys working overseas in combat zones as electricians, equipment operators, etc. for companies like Flour, Mantech, and KBR making at least double what they would be making here in the states, higher pay because they're in a combat zone.

 

[Hunt anything]

I don’t know how the pay structure is for H2B or any of the other work programs are administered but the H2A visas the government dictates how much they are paid. An apple picker in Washington would make more than my sod farm workers. I believe it’s done bye regions.

 

[Woodcarver]

What paperwork are you referring to that allows agriculture workers to stay year round and have their families come as well?
We use H2A workers on our farm and they can only stay for 9 months at a time and then return to their homes for 3 months.

If I am remembering what George told me correctly, they now have permanent visas. The company paid to have them travel back to Mexico while the application and approval process was dealt with. Then they paid to bring them back. These were men that had worked for them for several years, some with "questionable" paperwork. There were about 6 or 8 of these guys the farm sponsored, and paid all the expenses for, to get them back here with proper paperwork.
How this is different from the H2A program, I do not know. But they have lived here year round for many years now.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

 

[Tanks]

LOL ..... Exactly, companies in Texas already use the "labor contractor" loop hole; I want to close that loophole and actually expose the people making the profit off of illegals to the same liability.

Is it too much to ask that people who profit from illegal labor also accept the liability of that illegal labor; after all, if you hire a hitman you are still culpable to the murder; why is it any different for using labor contractors?

That is because putting people to work is not illegal. During harvest time we have 500+ people picking fruit. It is too much of a burden to hire people directly, especially when you don't know how many people will actually show up. This way the burden of providing the people and make sure they are legal is on the labor company.

 

[Corey0372]

I don’t know how the pay structure is for H2B or any of the other work programs are administered but the H2A visas the government dictates how much they are paid. An apple picker in Washington would make more than my sod farm workers. I believe it’s done bye regions.

I get that, but the point I'm making is these H2A guys are making around 5x what they would be making in Mexico, and they spend that money in Mexico, where the dollar buys a lot more. They aren't planning their future around living on those wages in the US. If an American started working at your place at 16.50 an hour, and was able to maintain the standard of work required, how long would it take before he's making 5x that pay scale working there? Probably never right?

Do you pay Americans the same rate you pay these H2A guys? Per that article I posted earlier the average harvest worker in Mexico makes about $3.76 US an hour, so they're making about 5x that working for you. Minimum wage in Mexico is about 10-11 US dollars a day, so just over 1 US dollar an hour if we assume an 8-10 hour work day. https://www.reuters.com/world/ameri...20-2023-raising-inflation-worries-2022-12-02/
So even if they stayed in Mexico, and did harvest work there, on average they would make a little over 3x the Mexican minimum wage. The wages you listed as 16.50-20 an hour isn't 3x the US federal minimum wage of 7.25, or 5x the US minimum wage, and it definitely isn't 5x the average salary of an American born farm laborer.

Do you think if you paid an American $21.75 an hour (3 x $7.25 minimum wage), with anything over 40 hours a week time and a half, they would stick around? What about $36.25 an hour (5 x 7.25 minimum wage)?

 

[WAB]

I've been around AG my entire life as well; former FFA district president, degree in agriculture, own a farm and besides owning my own business I am also a University employee tasked with answering agriculture issues for producers.

You are correct about American city kids - These days it seems that most of them are only children who have had parents helicopter over them so they live a consequence and sweat free existence; while oddly enough paying money to workout in a gym.

As for the "They pick our lettuce" argument.......

1. Less than 1% of all illegal immigrants are involved in agriculture work, but 44% of farm laborers are illegal immigrants - Very Telling.

2. Mechanization is changing agriculture FAST - When is the last time you heard of a human being harvesting sugarcane in the USA? The Florida Crystals Corporation imported THOUSANDS of Haitians into south Florida to harvest sugarcane and when they got replaced by machines the workers were allowed to stay.

3. Means and methods - farming succulents(especially lettuce) is being moved to hydroponic cultivation and it truly is a superior product that is much more efficient, better for the environment, lowers transportation cost/loss and is much less labor intensive. - So in 10 years we are going to be needing much less farm labor than we do now.

4. Exploitation - Every farmer/rancher I've ever met loves to moan about how they don't make any money, but I know some that make FORTUNES; oddly enough the greater the wealth of farmers the more willing they are to turn a blind eye to exploitation and especially so when it comes to labor contractors who are generally the anchor babies of 1st generation illegals and these labor contractors are the modern slave drivers and YES physical violence is still very much used as a motivation...... I've seen these people first hand in agriculture and excavation, they make their money on human suffering and I wish the federal government would step into dealing with this human tracking.

What's the answer? A organized farm labor union just like Cesar Chavez wanted, but he could never get it because employers would rather exploit desperate illegals than deal with a legal organized workforce.

These programs already exist - Such as the program for South American sheep herders that are allowed to come and work in the USA and are the ones responsible for maintaining flocks of sheep on the vast ranches and leases in the western U.S.A.

I couldn’t possibly disagree more strongly. I won’t bore you with my resume. Suffice to say, we have seen the same information and reached very different conclusions.

 

[roverandbrew]

View attachment 660263

That may well be what the slave maste..... I mean labor contractor is charging you, but I assure you the illegal is making nowhere near that.

I can assure you that you are dead wrong. My brother has owned his own concrete company for years. I’m pretty well aware. Do you own a construction company in Virginia by chance?

 

[Corey0372]

The Executive Action to label

Illegal concrete finishers in Virginia are $300-$350 a day.

Are they hiring? How much work do they have lined up?

 

[Corey0372]

Minimum wage in Mexico is about 10-11 US dollars a day, so just over 1 US dollar an hour if we assume an 8-10 hour work day.

I don’t know how the pay structure is for H2B or any of the other work programs are administered but the H2A visas the government dictates how much they are paid. An apple picker in Washington would make more than my sod farm workers. I believe it’s done bye regions

If the minimum wage in Mexico is 1 dollar an hour, and they're making 16x that (or more) working on a sod farm, it would be like me being able to go somewhere and make $116 an hour (7.25 x 16). Without overtime that comes out to about 240k a year. You show me the place I can go and make 240k a year as a laborer on a sod farm and I'm probably packing a bag tonight.

 

[roverandbrew]

Are they hiring? How much work do they have lined up?

My brother has looked for American workers for years but all quit or get on pills. He would love to have you!