Politics

[Red Leg]

You forgot the part about California, Arizona and Texas are separatists and you as the USA have been bombing your own countrymen for a couple years ahead of time.

Most aren't separatists. That is a Russian lie eagerly spread around the right wing sites and perpetuated by those who know nothing about Eastern Europe or the history of Ukraine. This map is the clearest refutation of that Russian lie. In 1991, Ukraine held a referendum with regard to independence. 86% of the population voted and even the Dombas and Crimea supported independence from Russia - 92% overall voted for independence.

With Putin coming to power, that tiny pro Russian minority in the Donbas and larger one in Crimea were exploited to generate an insurgency to try and destabilize Ukraine. Russia then used that destabilization to send in troops to "protect" the oppressed pro-Russian population in the Dombas, and invaded Crimea. You'll note this is a similar pattern Russia and China used with Marxist revolutionaries throughout the Cold War.

The only aggressor from day one of Ukrainian independence has been Vladimir Putin and the Russian state.

 

[TTundra]

" A russian is a russian..even if you fry him in butter " Finnish colonel

My grandfather was a US Marine POW in WWII for 3.5 years. Taken in the Phillipines and freedom after VJ.
He depised the Jananese....refused any in his family ro purchase a Japanese car, buy Japanese, and refused a trip by their government in the 90s.

I say this, because Japan is a great ally of the US now after countless horrific acts.

There is hope that relationships change and can be mended and alliances formed when the ones that did evil and let it control them no longer make the decisions. Some will take much longer.

We don't forget the past, rather learn and better ourselves from it.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

So, you're one of those that believe everything white, anti-gay, anti-illegal immigration is Right Wing and racist? Sure sounds like you watch a lot of CNN down there in Australia.

Leftists are absolutely hopeless

Seems like the visceral hatred so many have for trump is clouding their judgement.

 

[Brent in Az]

All I can do is laugh at the Europeans here, that are constantly criticizing Trump in his efforts to broker a peace deal.

What have your wussy nations done in the last 3 years to broker any peace?

The U.k, France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands????????

Bueller?.......Bueller?.......

You are all afraid of Russia, and haven't done Jack Shit, and Jack left town.

Trump steps in to try and get a reasonable deal done and you all lose your shit over Trump.

"Orange man bad .......Orange man bad"

"Squawk"

"Polly want a cracker......Polly want a cracker"

"Squawk"

"Orange man bad.......Orange man bad"

Some of you really make my skin crawl

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Most aren't separatists. That is a Russian lie eagerly spread around the right wing sites and perpetuated by those who know nothing about Eastern Europe or the history of Ukraine. This map is the clearest refutation of that Russian lie. In 1991, Ukraine held a referendum with regard to independence. 86% of the population voted and even the Dombas and Crimea supported independence from Russia - 92% overall voted for independence.

With Putin coming to power, that tiny pro Russian minority in the Donbas and larger one in Crimea were exploited to generate an insurgency to try and destabilize Ukraine. Russia then used that destabilization to send in troops to "protect" the oppressed pro-Russian population in the Dombas, and invaded Crimea. You'll note this is a similar pattern Russia and China used with Marxist revolutionaries throughout the Cold War.

The only aggressor from day one of Ukrainian independence has been Vladimir Putin and the Russian state.

View attachment 668634

Have you changed your position on how this should end or how you think it will end? I thought the general consensus was that this would end in a settlement. Now it seems like many want Ukraine to keep fighting and completely expel Russia from all Ukrainian territory

 

[gbflyer]

Most aren't separatists. That is a Russian lie eagerly spread around the right wing sites and perpetuated by those who know nothing about Eastern Europe or the history of Ukraine. This map is the clearest refutation of that Russian lie. In 1991, Ukraine held a referendum with regard to independence. 86% of the population voted and even the Dombas and Crimea supported independence from Russia - 92% overall voted for independence.

With Putin coming to power, that tiny pro Russian minority in the Donbas and larger one in Crimea were exploited to generate an insurgency to try and destabilize Ukraine. Russia then used that destabilization to send in troops to "protect" the oppressed pro-Russian population in the Dombas, and invaded Crimea. You'll note this is a similar pattern Russia and China used with Marxist revolutionaries throughout the Cold War.

The only aggressor from day one of Ukrainian independence has been Vladimir Putin and the Russian state.

View attachment 668634

With respect, 1991 was a long, long time ago. Got anything more recent?

I am willing to listen.

 

[Pondoro]

Have you changed your position on how this should end or how you think it will end? I thought the general consensus was that this would end in a settlement. Now it seems like many want Ukraine to keep fighting and completely expel Russia from all Ukrainian territory

Ukraine is far from any reasonable settlement..that is the truth.

 

[Red Leg]

Zelensky lied. This is the second time he has said something in private and then did an about face in front of the cameras.

I follow a lot of Ukrainian chats and blogs, Z attitude and disrespect is nothing new and it pretty much their attitude.

And Trump lied to his face before the press with respect to the amount of support Ukraine had received from the US, the number of casualties in the war, that Zelensky and by extension the West, had no leverage (cards) with which to negotiate, that Zelensky was trying to cause WWIII, and Vance claimed Ukraine was "out of soldiers." Zelensky pushed back on each of those as best he could in a second language and was then lectured by Vance for disrespecting the Oval office while Trump piously claimed to represent "the world."(The Oval office is now some holy inner sanctum?)

Yes, Zelensky should have bit his lip and took it since he and his government had approved the deal. But Zelensky knows what most people who have studied a modicum of history know - "peace" if defined as an absence of war, is no objective. "Peace" must contain guarantees that it will be followed by or enforced on all parties to insure it is lasting. WWI attempted the former and WWII implemented the latter.

 

[TTundra]

Most aren't separatists. That is a Russian lie eagerly spread around the right wing sites and perpetuated by those who know nothing about Eastern Europe or the history of Ukraine. This map is the clearest refutation of that Russian lie. In 1991, Ukraine held a referendum with regard to independence. 86% of the population voted and even the Dombas and Crimea supported independence from Russia - 92% overall voted for independence.

With Putin coming to power, that tiny pro Russian minority in the Donbas and larger one in Crimea were exploited to generate an insurgency to try and destabilize Ukraine. Russia then used that destabilization to send in troops to "protect" the oppressed pro-Russian population in the Dombas, and invaded Crimea. You'll note this is a similar pattern Russia and China used with Marxist revolutionaries throughout the Cold War.

The only aggressor from day one of Ukrainian independence has been Vladimir Putin and the Russian state.

View attachment 668634

I generally agree with this with exception to your last sentence.

With going back to 1991, there have been indirect aggressions that cannot be overlooked.

Countries added to Nato
99- Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland
04- Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria,Slovakia

Missiles in Poland

I say this to fully acknowledge that there has been encroachment of Nato to Russia's borders, Missile sites added, and US involvement in the Ukraine regime change in 2014.

Being the military industrial complex is one of our biggest industries, it has not necessary been bad for the US or it's partners, but we poked the Russian bear for decades.

Russia made every poor decision possible, albeit with instigation that cannot be ignored.

 

[shootist~]

Zelensky points out that Putin is not very nice and history shows he really and truly cannot be trusted. Gets thrown under the bus and kicked out of the White House as a result.

I guess that's Trump's foreign policy. Sad. And so disappointing after all the other positive policy initiates. Not our finest moment.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Ukraine is far from any reasonable settlement..that is the truth.

I seriously doubt it’ll be the whole of Ukraine. If you think that because of yesterday’s events we’ll just have to disagree. I don’t think those events will affect much of anything.. Russia will probably just get to keep Donbas and Crimea

 

[Brent in Az]

And Trump lied to his face before the press with respect to the amount of support Ukraine had received from the US, the number of casualties in the war, that Zelensky and by extension the West, had no leverage (cards) with which to negotiate, and Vance claimed Ukraine was "out of soldiers." Zelensky pushed back on each of those and was then lectured by Vance for disrespecting the Oval office while Trump piously claimed to represent "the world."(The Oval office is now some holy inner sanctum?)

Yes, Zelensky should have bit his lip and took it since he and his government has approved it. But Zelensky knows what most people who have studied a modicum of history know - "peace" if defined as an absence of war, is no objective. "Peace" must contain guarantees that it will be followed by or enforced on all parties to insure it is lasting. WWI attempted the former and WWII implemented the latter.

How about the Whitehouse steps away from the conflict altogether?
Europe can pull its WW2 military hardware out of mothballs, dust it off, and send what's left to Zelinskky.
Then the EU can sit around and have a great big circle jerk, and decide who's going to take the lead in trying to end the war.

We'll see how long the Ukraine lasts.

 

[Red Leg]

Have you changed your position on how this should end or how you think it will end? I thought the general consensus was that this would end in a settlement. Now it seems like many want Ukraine to keep fighting and completely expel Russia from all Ukrainian territory

Not at all. Barring a Russian collapse, it will end in negotiations and I would further predict Russia will retain Crimea and likely the eastern half of the Dombas. I think it is ridiculous to deny Ukraine the right to join any international body to which it aspires. The fact that Finland, now a NATO member thanks to the strategic genius in the Kremlin, shares nearly a thousand miles of border with Russia, much of it in marching distance of St. Petersburg puts a lie to that Russian concern. Russia currently occupies portions of two other solidly European oriented oblasts that a simple ceasefire will leave in Russian hands. It is unlikely a Trump administration will force them to do so. Ukraine realizes all of this very clearly, and is determined to fight for a just settlement that can be enforced.

 

[Brent in Az]

Zelensky points out that Putin is not very nice and history shows he really and truly cannot be trusted. Gets thrown under the bus and kicked out of the White House as a result.

I guess that's Trump's foreign policy. Sad. And so disappointing after all the other positive policy initiates. Not our finest moment.

Zelinskyy is a two faced little weasel who threw Trump under the bus at one point.
I guess Zelinsky receiving a taste of his own is not acceptable, eh?

 

[Red Leg]

I generally agree with this with exception to your last sentence.

With going back to 1991, there have been indirect aggressions that cannot be overlooked.

Countries added to Nato
99- Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland
04- Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria,Slovakia

Missiles in Poland

I say this to fully acknowledge that there has been encroachment of Nato to Russia's borders, Missile sites added, and US involvement in the Ukraine regime change in 2014.

Being the military industrial complex is one of our biggest industries, it has not necessary been bad for the US or it's partners, but we poked the Russian bear for decades.

Russia made every poor decision possible, albeit with instigation that cannot be ignored.

So? Serious question. There is no treaty between either the USSR, which no longer exists, or Russia that forbids new member states joining NATO or the positioning of NATO forces however the alliance chooses to do so. The little Russian Tsar can claim a buffer zone to his slowly crumbling empire as much as he wishes, but unlike the Soviet Union, he doesn't have 5 million troops with a stranglehold on Eastern Europe to enforce it.

 

[KJE81]

How about the Whitehouse steps away from the conflict altogether?
Europe can pull its WW2 military hardware out of mothballs, dust it off, and send what's left to Zelinskky.
Then the EU can sit around and have a great big circle jerk, and decide who's going to take the lead in trying to end the war.

We'll see how long the Ukraine lasts.

I would say that it would be okay as long as Trump does not side completly with Russia, lifts the sanctions and starts to support Russia directly.

I assume he has to get the house and the senate onboard if he were to ally US and Russia?

 

[rigbymauser]

Diplomacy is a nice thing...but futile when one hardly is able to make Russia to give in on anything..

The russians have shot God knows how many ukrainian cities to rubble and there is not even talk about Russia paying for this.. I say NO to a peace solely on russian terms..as it more or less stands now..

Diplomacy my ass..

The only russians one can trust are the dead ones. Finland knows this, but apparently the rest of europe haven’t learned or won’t learn.

 

[TTundra]

So? Serious question. There is no treaty between either the USSR, which no longer exists, or Russia that forbids new member states joining NATO or the positioning of NATO forces however the alliance chooses to do so. The little Russian Tsar can claim a buffer zone to his slowly crumbling empire as much as he wishes, but unlike the Soviet Union, he doesn't have 5 million troops with a stranglehold on Eastern Europe to enforce it.

Not sure if there was an actual question there.
That said, if one cannot look at both sides and understand the opposition, no positive outcome is possible.
Putin doesn't want Nato encroachment. The US wouldn't want Russian, Chinese, or Iran encroachment in Mexico.

Can you imagine a Cuban missile crisis today? The Cheneys would be picking their chops however. This coming from a Bush/Cheney voter, albeit more informed 20 years later.

 

[Pondoro]

The real difficulty is not the mineral deal.. If Ukraine wants it that is up to them..

But making a lasting peace will be very hard. I agree that Crimea and Donbas/Luhansk is lost...sad.

What kind of military security can Ukraine accept..? Russia will not accept foreign troops as a buffer between the countries.. Russia will veto NATO membership for Ukraine..

How far is Trump willing to go to please Putin..? We dont know.

Russia is also talking of a push-back for NATO in eastern Europe...whats that..? Removal of US troops..? Rejection of NATO membership for some of the states close to Russia..? Removal of nuclear weapons from western Europe..?

Who shall pay for rebuilding Ukraine..? Russia is not to be hold accountable for their insane war..??

 

[rigbymauser]

Diplomacy is a nice thing...but futile when one hardly is able to make Russia to give in on anything..

The russians have shot God knows how many ukrainian cities to rubble and there is not even talk about Russia paying for this.. I say NO to a peace solely on russian terms..as it more or less stands now..

Diplomacy my ass..

The only russians one can trust are the dead ones. Finland knows this, but apparently the rest of europe haven’t learned or won’t learn

In Europe, you could literally hear the champagne corks popping in the Kremlin
Since yesterday there is no more Crimean sparkling wine in Moscow, sold out.
Cheers. Sa Sdorówje.Saluti.Prost.
All consumed by the political bureau..
Trump is right where they want him.
Putin has the cunning of an old leopard
It was certainly the best day for him in three years.

Donevski Trumpski is a good kammerat to Putin.