Politics

And what would that look like when a bunch of people who didn't get the message or perhaps didn't care, died from the poison that the gov't put in the drugs? How does that work, you seize the drugs, poison them, then hand them back to the criminal suppliers to sell on the streets? Or does the gov't get involved in doing the actual selling of the poison?

That's not the end of the problem, that's the beginning of many more I'd argue.
I admit it is a pretty terrible way to deal with the problem. But as long as there is demand for a product there will be a supplier. We caused our own drug problem not some guy in a foreign country.
 
American's are tired of being the worlds policeman.
Wheels,
I can understand that completely, I would be fed up with it too as an American, but that was your policy, or did someone from the majority of countries call you out, please correct me if I'm wrong, I like to learn.
Your motto since the end of the war(wwII) has been “kick out the communists and bring them the way of American life, so we can open up the markets there.
I am grateful for this policy in my life, but nobody called you out in the countries that followed, where you invaded everywhere, and, by the way, you haven't won much militarily since 45, I would be grateful for your corrections in retrospect.
Direct invasions and major ground operations:

Korea (1950-1953) - Korean War against North Korea and later China.
Dominican Republic (1965) - intervention to support a pro-US government.
Vietnam (1955-1975) - Vietnam War against the communist forces in North Vietnam.
Cambodia (1970-1973) - Bombing and ground operations against Vietcong positions.
Laos (1964-1973) - Secret bombings and military operations.
Grenada (1983) - Invasion to overthrow a Marxist government.
Panama (1989) - Overthrow of Manuel Noriega.
Iraq (1991) - First Gulf War to liberate Kuwait.
Libya (2011) - Air strikes in support of the overthrow of Muammar al-Gaddafi.
Syria (2014-present) - Air and ground operations against ISIS.
 
I admit it is a pretty terrible way to deal with the problem. But as long as there is demand for a product there will be a supplier. We caused our own drug problem not some guy in a foreign country.

I won't argue with that. I will say we have had plenty of drug addicts die from there addiction. Many more that are still living could be seen as the "living dead." Still the demand remains.
 
Why don't the government just put poison in the street drugs then Tell the public. You buy from a drug dealer you may die. End of problem.
Look how well that worked out with alcohol during prohibition….
The government poisoning its citizens… What could go wrong???
 
Wheels,
I can understand that completely, I would be fed up with it too as an American, but that was your policy, or did someone from the majority of countries call you out, please correct me if I'm wrong, I like to learn.
Your motto since the end of the war(wwII) has been “kick out the communists and bring them the way of American life, so we can open up the markets there.
I am grateful for this policy in my life, but nobody called you out in the countries that followed, where you invaded everywhere, and, by the way, you haven't won much militarily since 45, I would be grateful for your corrections in retrospect.
Direct invasions and major ground operations:

Korea (1950-1953) - Korean War against North Korea and later China.
Dominican Republic (1965) - intervention to support a pro-US government.
Vietnam (1955-1975) - Vietnam War against the communist forces in North Vietnam.
Cambodia (1970-1973) - Bombing and ground operations against Vietcong positions.
Laos (1964-1973) - Secret bombings and military operations.
Grenada (1983) - Invasion to overthrow a Marxist government.
Panama (1989) - Overthrow of Manuel Noriega.
Iraq (1991) - First Gulf War to liberate Kuwait.
Libya (2011) - Air strikes in support of the overthrow of Muammar al-Gaddafi.
Syria (2014-present) - Air and ground operations against ISIS.

A path we chose to be sure. But it was done greatly in light of the criticism from WW2 that we did not get involved soon enough. Half of my family is from and most still do from that side live in the UK. I listened all of my childhood of the criticism from those family members how we should've been involved sooner, never once do I recall an expression of thanks for the effort.

I have a friend that I used to work with whose father served in WW2. The father was a very intelligent person, having become fluent in French I think when he was still in high school. He served in the army helping in communication with the French resistance. After the liberation of Paris, he was assigned there.

One day he and his buddies were eating lunch at one of those outdoor cafes sitting at a table next to some newly liberate Parisians. The woman at the table could do nothing but bitch and moan about all of the American soldiers, oblivious it seems to thinking someone nearby may be fluent in her language.

After so much of this, the man asked her exactly why she was complaining so much about the people who were willing to die for her liberation? Her answer was, "Well it's all the rage."

My point is yes it was our decision, the idea was to prevent a repeat war of that magnitude that Europe was certain all in support of, that is at least as the Americans were paying for it. That seems to be changing now, and I only know one POTUS that has had the balls to make it happen, love him or hate him. And the Europeans at least for the time being are on board with that, some of them anyhow.
 
The Nazi Party was indeed Socialist left.

Socialism, Marxism, Communism, Fascism, etc., are all Collectivist systems. All power in the hands of the State is the common denominator in leftist ideology.

Conservative right ideology is centered around Free Markets and individual responsibility.

It is well known that Hitler and most of his early companions were not only Socialist, but frequently Communist.

Hitler often spelled out his hatred of Capitalism and Free Market economic systems in favor of State controlled and centrally planned economic systems.

"State control of the means of production" and other tenants of Marxism were central to National Socialist ideology, and the modern Socialist left. The Nazi State controlled the Financial System, the Education System, the Transportation System, the Information System and every facet of German life, even Sports and leisure activities were controlled by the State. Sound like Free Market Capitalism to you?

Nearly every point that Marx outlined in the Communist Manifesto, the Nazi Party actually put into practice.

Fascism is a term often used by those that try to confuse political terminology. The old Roman Fasces symbolizes unity, government power and physical force. View attachment 671000

Total power in the hands of the State is aligned with Socialist left ideology.
By this basic fact alone, Fascism cannot be Conservative Right.

All Socialist left ideology is centered around Collectivism and increasing State power. On the opposite side of the political spectrum, Conservative right political ideology is centered around individual responsibility and minimal State power.
But they called themselves National Socialists.

And didn't Hitler gain that power using some significant Socislist programs?
The term "socialist" has been thrown around by just about everyone in Europe of every political persuasion even before Karl Marx wrote his book. The tens of thousands of murdered and imprisoned German Marxists and Communists would be the first to raise an objection that the NAZI state was socialist.

The German system was all about control. Traditional socialism, as seen in Marxist or democratic socialist frameworks, emphasizes equality, worker control, and the abolition of class distinctions. Nazi Germany, by contrast, glorified hierarchy, racial supremacy, and the Führer principle, which centralized power in an authoritarian leader. Its social programs such as Strength Through Joy were designed to bolster regime loyalty, not to empower the working class.

Private property and businesses were preserved, and major industrialists—like those at Krupp, IG Farben, and Siemens—thrived under the regime, often profiting from state contracts and forced labor. The government did exert heavy control over the economy through policies like price controls, production quotas, and the suppression of labor unions, but it did not nationalize industries on a large scale as socialist states like the Soviet Union did. The Nazis dismantled independent trade unions and replaced them with the German Labour Front (DAF), which served to control workers rather than empower them.

The Nazis were vehemently anti-communist and anti-Marxist, viewing socialist movements like Bolshevism as existential threats. They persecuted and murdered communists, socialists, and other leftists, notably during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934, when Hitler purged the SA’s "left-leaning" elements (most famously Ernst Röhm), who had advocated for a "second revolution" with socialist-sounding reforms.

The inclusion of "socialist" in the party’s name was largely a propaganda tool to appeal to the working class and siphon support from leftist parties in the Weimar Republic. Early Nazi rhetoric, like the 1920 25-Point Program which @SaintPanzer quotes, included vague promises of wealth redistribution and nationalization, but these were abandoned or reinterpreted once Hitler gained power.

As @SaintPanzer also suggests, Goldberg's book, "Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning," is worth reading if only because so many historians disagree with many of his conclusions (some of which I think have merit). I think there is much to be said for his notion that the extreme left uses very similar methods to what is traditionally considered those of the extreme right. That represents the circular nature of radicalism as it moves away from the center that I have noted elsewhere here. I would also agree that his position of viewing socialism and fascism through the lens of traditional American values, offers little to choose between the two systems if socialism is represented in its extreme forms. I, and quite a few historians far more schooled in the subject than I, believe his thesis falls apart when he tries to compare socialism to the Nazi fascists and essentially ignores what are crucial differences like those above.

And yes I know what the Etruscan, later Roman, "Fasces" was and its symbolism of a king's, or later, Caesar's centralized power and its role in the etymology of Fascism.
 
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The term "socialist" has been thrown around by just about everyone in Europe of every political persuasion even before Karl Marx wrote his book. The tens of thousands of murdered and imprisoned German Marxists and Communists would be the first to raise an objection that the NAZI state was socialist.

The German system was all about control. Traditional socialism, as seen in Marxist or democratic socialist frameworks, emphasizes equality, worker control, and the abolition of class distinctions. Nazi Germany, by contrast, glorified hierarchy, racial supremacy, and the Führer principle, which centralized power in an authoritarian leader. Its social programs such as Strength Through Joy were designed to bolster regime loyalty, not to empower the working class.

Private property and businesses were preserved, and major industrialists—like those at Krupp, IG Farben, and Siemens—thrived under the regime, often profiting from state contracts and forced labor. The government did exert heavy control over the economy through policies like price controls, production quotas, and the suppression of labor unions, but it did not nationalize industries on a large scale as socialist states like the Soviet Union did. The Nazis dismantled independent trade unions and replaced them with the German Labour Front (DAF), which served to control workers rather than empower them.

The Nazis were vehemently anti-communist and anti-Marxist, viewing socialist movements like Bolshevism as existential threats. They persecuted and murdered communists, socialists, and other leftists, notably during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934, when Hitler purged the SA’s "left-leaning" elements (most famously Ernst Röhm), who had advocated for a "second revolution" with socialist-sounding reforms.

The inclusion of "socialist" in the party’s name was largely a propaganda tool to appeal to the working class and siphon support from leftist parties in the Weimar Republic. Early Nazi rhetoric, like the 1920 25-Point Program which @SaintPanzer quotes, included vague promises of wealth redistribution and nationalization, but these were abandoned or reinterpreted once Hitler gained power.

As @SaintPanzer also suggests, Goldberg's book, "Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning," is worth reading if only because so many historians disagree with many of his conclusions (some of which I think have merit). I think there is much to be said for his notion that the extreme left uses very similar methods to what is traditionally considered those of the extreme right. That represents the circular nature of radicalism as it moves away from the center that I have noted elsewhere here. I would also agree that his position of viewing socialism and fascism through the lens of traditional American values, offers little to choose between the two systems if socialism is represented in its extreme forms. I, and quite a few historians far more schooled in the subject than I, believe his thesis falls apart when he tries to compare socialism to the Nazi fascists and essentially ignores what are crucial differences like those above.

And yes I know what the Etruscan, later Roman, "Fasces" was and its symbolism of a king's, or later, Caesar's centralized power and its role in the etymology of Fascism.

Fascism, Communism, maybe slightly different philosophies, but almost identical results and methods:
- death camps
- secret police, neighbour betraying neighbour
- total control of the state over the individual
- one leader worshipped almost as a god
- abolishment of religion, only state religion
- full control over state media, no free speech
- everything is done for glorification of the motherland/the state
- a small select group of insiders that have all wealth and power
- aggressive expansionism, out of need for resources (both natural and people) or to preemptively protect against perceived aggression from neighbours
- and the list goes on

I find both equally reprehensible

Edit: I find perhaps communism slightly more reprehensible, mainly because the death figures are much higher, but also because the line “for the common good” is used more often to convince well meaning but weak willed people to perform atrocities. From the fascist side it is more a direct line of superiority over others. Which is more recognisable as evil.
 
I really hate what's going on with the gamesmanship with Canada, totally unecessary. Deewayne2003 hit the nail on the head, but the presumptive incoming PM is no different than Trudeau. The childishness could have been avoided.......maybe.

Mark Carney couldn't be more different than Trudeau.
And if he's elected, he'll be the only actual Conservative leader in North America.

Trumps far-right populism isn't Conservative by any stretch of the imagination, at least unless you completely redefine the definition.

That said, given the apparent inability of what seems like most of the US (and, a significant number of posters in this thread) to be able to accurately define "socialism", "communism", and "fascism" in an manner accurate enough to pass a high-school level exam; I'm sure that categorization is going to meet with some opposition.
 
Fascism, Communism, maybe slightly different philosophies, but almost identical results and methods:
- death camps
- secret police, neighbour betraying neighbour
- total control of the state over the individual
- one leader worshipped almost as a god
- abolishment of religion, only state religion
- full control over state media, no free speech
- everything is done for glorification of the motherland/the state
- a small select group of insiders that have all wealth and power
- aggressive expansionism, out of need for resources (both natural and people) or to preemptively protect against perceived aggression from neighbours
- and the list goes on

I find both equally reprehensible

Edit: I find perhaps communism slightly more reprehensible, mainly because the death figures are much higher, but also because the line “for the common good” is used more often to convince well meaning but weak willed people to perform atrocities. From the fascist side it is more a direct line of superiority over others. Which is more recognisable as evil.
I am not defending either. Merely pointing out Nazism and radical socialism are not the same thing, however similar their methodologies might seem to a victim of either regime - though those victims would generally be different.
 
This is so important someone should write a book about it, with footnotes and everything. Oh, wait: Jonah Goldberg did.

He's definitely given an honest attempt at understanding a lot of this stuff, many people just have a hard time questioning their priors and admitting there's a lot more "grey area" in 20th century political movements than most want to concede.

You can also still find the works of Giovanni Gentile, Oswald Mosley, Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera, and many others from the era in print, if people are interested in reading what the actual thought leaders of the era had to say.

But it's probably more fun to just use terms like Fascism, Communism, "Far Right MAGA", "Socialist Dems", "Communist AOC" when what you actually mean is "thing I don't like" HAHA!

For example, you'll find little to no mention of race in Gentile's "Origins and Doctrine of Fascism" aside from speaking about the Italians as a people.

Also...... What are these on the House Floor??? GUYS!!! Are we all a bunch of racist, anti-semitic, radical ultra-mega-far right turbo nazis????

House.JPG


And what about this????? Was the Mercury Dime a Socialist, tyrannical, Communist, totalitarian symbol of oppression?????

Dime.JPG


Or is the Fasces just a symbol that's been around a really long time and sort of a plays into the whole E Pluribus Unum philosophy?

NOPE!!!!!!! GEORGE WASHINGTON THE FAR RIGHT (but also FAR LEFT) SOCIALIST/FASCIST RIGHT HERE WITH FASCES IN HAND IN THIS 1792 MONUMENT TO TYRANNY!!!!!!!

Washington.jpg
 
The term "socialist" has been thrown around by just about everyone in Europe of every political persuasion even before Karl Marx wrote his book. The tens of thousands of murdered and imprisoned German Marxists and Communists would be the first to raise an objection that the NAZI state was socialist.
The Socialist left always eats it's own. Communists have always murdered other Communists, Marxists have always murdered other Marxists, and Socialists have always murdered other Socialists. Lenin and then Stalin murdered Leon Trotsky, and purged millions in the 1920's, including loyal Party members. Hitler had dozens of close friends murdered, including Ernst Rohm. Mao starved an estimated 40 million in China, and was directly responsible for the deaths of other Party members, including former lovers. Again, Socialists have always murdered other Socialists, even within their own Political Party. To say that one Socialist murdered another Socialist because their Political beliefs differed is false. Quite to the contrary, they often killed their Political rivals in turf wars and internal power struggles within the Party.
The German system was all about control.
State Control, as I stated above, is the central hallmark of all brands of Socialism.
Traditional socialism, as seen in Marxist or democratic socialist frameworks, emphasizes equality, worker control, and the abolition of class distinctions.
Not so. Socialism has always been a 2 class system, composed of Party members in one class, all others in a lower class. This is exactly what George Orwell meant by "Some are more equal than others."
Nazi Germany, by contrast, glorified hierarchy, racial supremacy, and the Führer principle, which centralized power in an authoritarian leader. Its social programs such as Strength Through Joy were designed to bolster regime loyalty, not to empower the working class.

Private property and businesses were preserved, and major industrialists—like those at Krupp, IG Farben, and Siemens—thrived under the regime, often profiting from state contracts and forced labor. The government did exert heavy control over the economy through policies like price controls, production quotas, and the suppression of labor unions, but it did not nationalize industries on a large scale as socialist states like the Soviet Union did.
When businesses didn't cooperate with the Nazi Party, their businesses were taken from their owners and placed under the control of the State. Hugo Junkers was thrown out of his own factory. Many industries were expropriated from their owners, sold to loyal members of the Nazi Party, then operated for the benefit of the State. So whether by physical force (Brown Shirts/SA), by legal coercion (Taxes, labor laws), or volutarily, the end result was the same, State Control of the means of Production.
The Nazis dismantled independent trade unions and replaced them with the German Labour Front (DAF), which served to control workers rather than empower them.
Exactly. Karl Marx often stated that Socialism would be spread through the Trade Unions. The German Labor Front was instrumental in the implementation of State policy in every industry in Germany.
The Nazis were vehemently anti-communist and anti-Marxist, viewing socialist movements like Bolshevism as existential threats. They persecuted and murdered communists, socialists, and other leftists, notably during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934, when Hitler purged the SA’s "left-leaning" elements (most famously Ernst Röhm), who had advocated for a "second revolution" with socialist-sounding reforms.
You've simply proven my point. Socialists have always murdered any other Socialist they considered a threat.
The inclusion of "socialist" in the party’s name was largely a propaganda tool to appeal to the working class and siphon support from leftist parties in the Weimar Republic. Early Nazi rhetoric, like the 1920 25-Point Program which @SaintPanzer quotes, included vague promises of wealth redistribution and nationalization, but these were abandoned or reinterpreted once Hitler gained power.
This is because they were largely free bread and circuses to gain support of the masses. Every Megalomaniac that became a Socialist Dictator never intended to implement the things they initially promised. Once a Socialist Dictator consolidates total power, popular support is unnecessary.
As @SaintPanzer also suggests, Goldberg's book, "Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning," is worth reading if only because so many historians disagree with many of his conclusions (some of which I think have merit). I think there is much to be said for his notion that the extreme left uses very similar methods to what is traditionally considered those of the extreme right. That represents the circular nature of radicalism as it moves away from the center that I have noted elsewhere here. I would also agree that his position of viewing socialism and fascism through the lens of traditional American values, offers little to choose between the two systems if socialism is represented in its extreme forms. I, and quite a few historians far more schooled in the subject than I, believe his thesis falls apart when he tries to compare socialism to the Nazi fascists and essentially ignores what are crucial differences like those above.

And yes I know what the Etruscan, later Roman, "Fasces" was and its symbolism of a king's, or later, Caesar's centralized power and its role in the etymology of Fascism.
Precisely what I've described, centralized power and near total control in the hands of the State. Methods may differ, but the ultimate goal is the same.

Where you, many Historians and Political Science authors differ with my conclusions is this. You concentrate mostly on the things that separate different Socialist movements. My concern is how they are the same.

Socialism and Communism are simply two dogs of the same breed.
 
The Socialist left always eats it's own. Communists have always murdered other Communists, Marxists have always murdered other Marxists, and Socialists have always murdered other Socialists. Lenin and then Stalin murdered Leon Trotsky, and purged millions in the 1920's, including loyal Party members. Hitler had dozens of close friends murdered, including Ernst Rohm. Mao starved an estimated 40 million in China, and was directly responsible for the deaths of other Party members, including former lovers. Again, Socialists have always murdered other Socialists, even within their own Political Party. To say that one Socialist murdered another Socialist because their Political beliefs differed is false. Quite to the contrary, they often killed their Political rivals in turf wars and internal power struggles within the Party.

State Control, as I stated above, is the central hallmark of all brands of Socialism.

Not so. Socialism has always been a 2 class system, composed of Party members in one class, all others in a lower class. This is exactly what George Orwell meant by "Some are more equal than others."

When businesses didn't cooperate with the Nazi Party, their businesses were taken from their owners and placed under the control of the State. Hugo Junkers was thrown out of his own factory. Many industries were expropriated from their owners, sold to loyal members of the Nazi Party, then operated for the benefit of the State. So whether by physical force (Brown Shirts/SA), by legal coercion (Taxes, labor laws), or volutarily, the end result was the same, State Control of the means of Production.

Exactly. Karl Marx often stated that Socialism would be spread through the Trade Unions. The German Labor Front was instrumental in the implementation of State policy in every industry in Germany.

You've simply proven my point. Socialists have always murdered any other Socialist they considered a threat.

This is because they were largely free bread and circuses to gain support of the masses. Every Megalomaniac that became a Socialist Dictator never intended to implement the things they initially promised. Once a Socialist Dictator consolidates total power, popular support is unnecessary.

Precisely what I've described, centralized power and near total control in the hands of the State. Methods may differ, but the ultimate goal is the same.

Where you, many Historians and Political Science authors differ with my conclusions is this. You concentrate mostly on the things that separate different Socialist movements. My concern is how they are the same.

Socialism and Communism are simply two dogs of the same breed.
An excellent example how the same set of information can lead to different conclusions. I am comfortable with mine.
 

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