Politics

[SaintPanzer]

Care to give a cliffs note version on the US public education system? And why people want to see it abolished?

Cliff's Notes:

Every State has a public school system. All attend (no tuition, but there are always costs like paper, pencils/pens, things like that). All are supposed to teach to a standard. Public school is available from Kindergarten (approx age 5) to Grade 12 (approx age 18).

Alternatively/additionally, there are private schools. They teach to similar standards, but have more flexibility in curriculum or entrance requirements. In both cases, you have to meet "the minimum" to graduate.

There are also "magnet schools". These are publicly funded, but have entrance requirements and higher standards for curriculum, advancement and graduation.

There are also "charter schools" which are private, but funded with some public money.

Once you have that 12th grade ("High School") degree, you can apply to college or university. Each college or university has their own admission standards.

That's a précis. As with all précis, I've left out a lot of details, and there are other "what if's". And of course "quality" varies by State and by geographic areas within the state. But you asked for the Cliff's Notes.

I don't think anyone wants to see the system itself abolished. What they do want to see are improvements.

If the local school system is under performing, some believe that parents should have the option to choose a private school, and be reimbursed for the tuition via public funding. Because some (but not all) private schools are run by religious organizations and have religious teachings as part of their curriculum, others believe that this represents a conflict with a state sponsor of religion.

Some believe more charter schools should exist. Because these are more "private" than the public system (i.e. are individually run and not controlled by local school boards), they typically employ teachers who are not unionized. Needless to say, the Unions are very much opposed to this.

School Boards can be very well run, or can be havens for corruption or union influence. Many want to change this influence.

Finally, there is the Federal Department of Education. This was created in 1980, and was designed to both improve education standards and level the minimum requirements across the States: equalize outcomes at a higher level.

Some want to see Department abolished, because it has NOT achieved these goals, and because Union influence over this Department has become excessive. Additionally, to some it seems that it is no longer focusing on academic achievement but on non-academic topics.

That's about as non-partisan as I can summarize things. I'm trying to keep my personal opinion out of it.

 

[Aaron N]

The department education being formed was the epitome of.......

"The cure for bureaucracy is more bureaucracy!"

As a non-American, im still confused. Do you guys want the states too look after education themselves, or for all schools become privatized?

You can ignore that after @SaintPanzer ’s post

 

[Wheels]

The main stream media using John Bolton as the voice of reason to go after Trump never gets old.

 

[Red Leg]

Feel free to provide one's own commentary, rationalization, whatever.

 

[deewayne2003]

Teaching is already an attractive position. Teaching the next generation and the satisfaction it brings. Ample time off. Relatively low demand, comfortable work environment. Etc.

Multiple problems though. A growing trend of perceived insufficient pay. The influencer influence. Bureaucracy in the system. The current generations kids and their baggage, eg, parents, outside influence, cell phones, loss of respect all around, victimhood status, etc.

Then again, I can think of plenty of teachers who got into teaching primarily because of the schedule and the security. That is its own problem that shorts the students.

Well said, my sister is an elementary education teacher in Texas; I remember when she was in high school she literally said she wanted to teach elementary education because it's the easiest degree to get and grading 3rd grade homework would be easy.

Now she endlessly complains about how bad of a deal teaching is.....
Makes $55K per year
Gets 10 weeks of paid vacation annually
Exempt from Social Security taxes and Texas teachers retirement always out performs SS.
State employee healthcare
Teachers union

When I asked her why she doesn't get a job during the summer instead of sitting on her ass the answer is classic public employee.....

"Well I've never paid into social security taxes and I can't collect both SS & teachers retirement so there is no point in working a 2nd job because I don't won't get SS."

This from a woman that has matching designer purses and has had two brand new cars in the last two years...... despite being on her 2nd divorce - Both of which were complete LOSERS.

If you work it right and are motivated you can do LOTS with a teachers salary.

There is a couple in my town that are both retired public teachers and they own 25 rent houses and are some of the hardest working people I know; neither one of them ever had a full time job outside of teaching.... they just managed their money and worked HARD during the summer.

 

[Wheels]

I'm just curious how we are defining "successful". If the thesis is you need to be from a successful family to be successful, how are you defining that? If there is no longer any opportunity to "move up socially", again, how do you know?

From my perspective, here's the thing: In general, anyone has the opportunity to learn basic skills. If you apply yourself, you can learn more skills. Or you can accept the status quo. But does everyone have to go from "nothing" to being a multi-millionaire to be considered successful? Or just hit the median income level?

Must everyone have a brand new car every year?

For those "unsuccessful", what choices have they made?

Some are dealt a poor hand. Others are born on third base, and think they hit a triple. Some just get ahead, because they wanted to get ahead, and applied themselves.

Where else in the world can you be born in one of the poorest parts of the country, look around and see what's happening to others, make choices for yourself and end up going to one of the best universities in the country, be elected to office, and then become Vice President? And who knows what the future holds beyond that?

I'm biased, because I spent too much time with a very meritocratic organization. I know former enlisted people wearing two stars, I was commissioned with a congressman's son, I know those who have had every opportunity who were never promoted past Captain. There are no promises.

So how exactly are you judging "success"?

The only way I judge my success is my relationship to my God, my family and my friends. On my deathbed those are the only things I will care about from this life. Why not prioritize them now. I have been blessed financially but also worked very hard to achieve it. Any monetary success I have falls way down the list and is hardly worth mentioning.

 

[VertigoBE]

The only way I judge my success is my relationship to my God, my family and my friends. On my deathbed those are the only things I will care about from this life. Why not prioritize them now. I have been blessed financially but also worked very hard to achieve it. Any monetary success I have falls way down the list and is hardly worth mentioning.

I would make it a slightly more nuanced. Monetary success for the sake of monetary success is indeed not high on the priority list. But being able to provide a comfortable life to my family, sending my kids to the best schools later on (if they merit it), and of course indulging myself from time to time in a good hunt or fine rifle, those I do count as priorities.

 

[Tanks]

So wouldn’t the answer be making teaching a more attractive profession as opposed to lowering the bar?

Same people that complain about quality of education also do not wish to pay the people doing the teaching.

 

[Tanks]

Feel free to provide one's own commentary, rationalization, whatever.

View attachment 671496

Short baby, short.

 

[CJW]

Germans want half a million more migrants per year and essentially no deportations right???

Germany is heading towards an immigration catastrophe

The German Social Democratic party (SPD) has published its working paper on immigration. It calls for half a million more migrants every year, no deportation of illegal immigrants unless they are extremely violent, voting rights for foreigners, automatic citizenship after 25 years, and a new...

www.spectator.co.uk

 

[skydiver386]

I know people from this region who have become overwhelmingly successful, and other's that lived life like it was one big party. California seems to produce families of a similar stripe. If you want to know why I despise Democrat Welfare culture, this is the reason.

Notice in the film the film the brother that moved to Ohio specifically to escape the influence of his family members. He became a success in comparison to his siblings, while the others continue to wallow in drug abuse, alcohol abuse, prescription drug abuse, etc. These are very clear choices every human being is free to make for themselves.

Work hard and make good choices, you have the best chance at success and happiness. Choose to not work and make bad choices, your chance of success is nearly zero.

No offense to member @steve white.

 

[Scott CWO]

As a non-American, im still confused. Do you guys want the states too look after education themselves, or for all schools become privatized?

You can ignore that after @SaintPanzer ’s post

The states and local school districts already provide most of the funding. We pay county property taxes and school district taxes to fund schools. The federal Department of Education wasn’t created until 1980 and has become mostly a bureaucratic mess and controlled by the teacher unions. We could do without it.

 

[steve white]

I suspect that is a universal trait World wide
...

Yep, even the Japanese have what they call "grass eaters"...young people living in parents home playing video games with no education, no job, no skills. A safety net will do that to some people--even bears will skip hunting and live off trash cans if they can get away with it. It breaks my heart to see young people missing the proper seasons of life through neglect and lack of discipline. Even worse are those who, still dependent, have children they don't supervise, regularly letting them stay up until 3 or 4 in the morning and sleeping during the day. What do you expect? And these are kids in Dallas, not out in some rural wilderness.
It is not just that we cannot afford entitlements at current levels--we cannot afford to let generations of potential go to waste! Sooner or later a child has to get weaned.

 

[steve white]

Yea, so what? I recall having such conversations at the feed store. Hell still do! I do not have a high school diploma and the only time I've ever stepped foot into a college classroom was to teach a class on marketing.

Maybe that's why I'm unemployable? Although I did have a job for 2 months one summer when I was about 20. It was interesting for a couple weeks but I really didn't really care for it. It impeded me from getting more important things done so swore that off for life

Your take is akin to the pathway chosen by the only two millionaires of my close acquaintance. One dropped out of college (he thought it was largely BS), started by sweeping floors at Binswanger Glass, and as soon as he was an estimator for that firm, started his own glass company, which has absolutely dwarfed the competition in revenue. Someone saw him hanging out of a window (while installing it) in the Roberts bldg. at Baylor Hospital, and told his mother he was about to get killed. Ha.
The other dropped out of Tyler Jr. College (horrors) in order to become a pallet grass magnate.
I have seen lots of useless degrees owned by useless people. It's only a piece of paper until you put it to work. Got nothing against education--you'll need lots of it in medical, engineering, etc. etc. But at the end of the day, the plan only works if you do.
What was that on "On a Lighter Note?" If you gave some people a job sleeping, they would just wake up and quit.

 

[CJW]

Lots of things wrong with our modern education system. The developers and pushers of "common core" should be locked up.

After 10 Years of Hopes and Setbacks, What Happened to the Common Core? (Published 2019)

It was one of the most ambitious education efforts in United States history. Did it fail? Or does it just need more time to succeed?

www.nytimes.com

 

[Altitude sickness]

Same people that complain about quality of education also do not wish to pay the people doing the teaching.

I am 100% for defunding the DOE, Randi and the democrats cabal. Poor performing teachers should be sent down the road.

But we should start to pay quality teachers far more money. It’s should be a highly desirable profession. Attracting the best.

The rest of our society pivots on quality education. Reading early being most important.
Poor education is a pipeline to poverty and crime. The money we save on welfare and prison could be used to pay the best people to spend hours a day with our kids.

Now we actually allow people I wouldn’t let in my house to watch and teach our Kids.

 

[CJW]

What does a proper pay scale look like for a public school teacher? Haven't heard too many people throw out any numbers. Geographical location plays a role of course.

My neighbor has taught shop for 16ish years. He makes $68k. Seem fair?

 

[mdwest]

Feel free to provide one's own commentary, rationalization, whatever.

View attachment 671496

The chart is correct... but.. I think its important to add a little context here..

On Nov 1st (prior to the election).. the S&P was at 5728... today it closed at 5638...

all things considered we're not exactly in a bad place right now.. we're 90 points from where we were prior to the election..

the markets soared post Trump getting elected.. now they're a little uncertain because of all the trade war nonsense going on.. but all of the markets rocketed today (Dow went up 650 points today)..

Im not all that concerned just yet.. I'd say give it 3-4 months.. see what happens in Ukraine.. see what happens in Mexico (MX negotiations appear to be going very well).. see what happens in CA.. see what happens in Europe.. See what happens in the bond market.. see what happens with the Fed and interest rates.. 10 yr.. etc..etc..etc..

If things continue to trend down for the next 90, I'll get a little worried... for now, all Im seeing is a reason to more deeply invest while stocks in particular industries are deflated..

 

[rigbymauser]

Some make it.
An awful lot of hard working people, probably numbering in the majority, do not.

Heaven forbid. And it's hardly controversial.

Little to do with individual risk taking. But that makes for a feel-good story, for sure.

One of the american selfperceptions has often tied up to the individuel achievement and in the fresh of this a self-glorification. Its a different kind of poverty that doesn`t leave room for much.

 

[deewayne2003]

Same people that complain about quality of education also do not wish to pay the people doing the teaching.

Well I complain about education and I don’t have a problem with paying teachers that perform; however as someone that attended public schools I can tell you that 50% of my teachers were simply not motivated and a few of them were flat out horrible people.

One of the principles of my highschool was arrested and convicted of shoplifting twice and not only did she keep her job but continued to rise in her employment within the school district.

I don’t believe in rewarding poor performance with higher pay, put the power back in the teachers hands to teach something other than standardized tests and you will see who your true educators are, and then along with higher performance should come higher pay.

The next time you hear a teacher complain about student loans; remind them that if they teach at an underperforming school for 5 years they can have $50K of their student debt wiped clean, I didn’t know that until two girls I went to highschool with told me about it at the 10 year reunion after I asked them why they taught in small towns.