Poor Man's Double Rifle

[VertigoBE]

I believe that is a 10ga..

it does look quite meaty for a 12ga indeed, unless the PH has really small hands

 

[Ike85123]

Could be idk? Does look meaty. The only 10 gauge Ive been around was my grandfathers. My dad used is as a wall decoration/dust collector.

 

[crs]

LVW,
I just read this post of yours and it is excellent.
Well Done.

 

[John Wasmuth]

I was just thinking about this post while looking at SxS shotguns on GB today. Gotta be a sign from the gods…..

 

[freefall]

In the early 90s I had a Savage 311 12vs that I cut to 22", filed the barrels square, plugged the gap between them by stuffing some steel wool in about 1/2" fluxing the gap and pouring it full of 50/50 solder.
Without remounting the bead it would easily keep both slugs on a paper plate at about 30 yards, the two barrels shot about 3/4" apart at that range. Kept it above the cabin door for several years. Never had to use it with serious intent, but took it along to run a few bears out of the yard.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

What about the same idea but in 20 gauge? Has anyone tried that on game?

 

[BeeMaa]

What about the same idea but in 20 gauge? Has anyone tried that on game?

I know 20 bore slugs are popular in the US for hunting deer. Even to the point of Savage making a bolt action rifled barrel 20 bore with a 2 + 1 capacity. We all know that Whitetail are not DG and a bolt action isn't a double rifle. Not sure if a 20 bore packs enough punch to get the job done. I would think that availability of projectiles and greater mass of the 12 bore would give it a huge advantage over the 20. Besides, it's not like a 12 bore has a crazy amount of recoil.

 

[Ridgewalker]

Seems I recall the guy on “Under Wild Skys”, Macrus?, used a 20 bore paradox on a Cape buffalo. It worked apparently.
Possibly because of the frontal are of 20 bore vs 12 bore you might get deeper penetration. Just speculating.

 

[Pavel U]

I have to add that I am planning on hunting a buffalo with my 12ga/9.3x74R combination. I will be using a Brenneke slug loaded into a solid brass hull and in process of regulating 320 gr Rhino bullet for the 9.3 x 74R.

I have been on one attempt but seeing that I was hunting a specific animal on a huge area, I did not get the opportunity. Yet...

Hi @IvW, Thank You for sharing experience in this very interesting thread. I am new to the world of hunting, so would be happy for Your experience: You put shotgun slugs through a very extensive practical field testing. I'd like to ask two questions:
1) did You managed to hunt the buffalo as You planned (3 years ago)?
2) have You ever tried frontal headshot with a slug on bushpigs or warthogs?
I happen to be happy owner of a 12ga/9.3x74R combination gun too and I am curious whether it could be of any use for European wild boar.
I hope that I would never have to rely on that (slug) second shot. Either it be crawling to the thicket to pull out wounded boar. Or use it when the boar during driven hunt decides that his only path to life leads right through my frail body.
Just like to know whether it is not pure madness to take stand and rely on the slug, or rather try to get the hell out of his way

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hi @IvW, Thank You for sharing experience in this very interesting thread. I am new to the world of hunting, so would be happy for Your experience: You put shotgun slugs through a very extensive practical field testing. I'd like to ask two questions:
1) did You managed to hunt the buffalo as You planned (3 years ago)?
2) have You ever tried frontal headshot with a slug on bushpigs or warthogs?
I happen to be happy owner of a 12ga/9.3x74R combination gun too and I am curious whether it could be of any use for European wild boar.
I hope that I would never have to rely on that (slug) second shot. Either it be crawling to the thicket to pull out wounded boar. Or use it when the boar during driven hunt decides that his only path to life leads right through my frail body.
Just like to know whether it is not pure madness to take stand and rely on the slug, or rather try to get the hell out of his way

@Pavel U
I have shot quite a few pigs upto 100 plus kilo and assire you none have argued with a 12 gauge 1 ounce or 1 and a quarter ounce slug in the body, side of the head or front on in the head. It takes the wind out of them in a very emphatic style especially at close range.
Bob

 

[Red Leg]

RBL - Professional, Sabot Slug Gun, 20ga. 24" Barrels. #51756

We make and sell the best shotguns in the world!

connecticutshotgun.co

CSMC has made this dedicated slug gun for a few years. It doesn't exactly qualify as a "poor man's" double, but the two I have seen, performed as advertised. They are designed for scope use if so desired. I have no clue what the regulation load might be.

I have a RBL in 12 with 3" chambers that is my primary waterfowl gun - it has 32" barrels, and no, I am not considering taking a hacksaw to it.

An interesting project would be to find a BRNO like @IvW 's or something similar in 20, shorten the barrels to 26 inches and have rifled choke tubes installed. It would likely have to go to JJ Perodeau or someone equally skilled to be regulated and have at least express sights installed if not bases, but it might be worth the expense if the gun was already wasting away in the back of a gunsafe.

Seems I recall the guy on “Under Wild Skys”, Macrus?, used a 20 bore paradox on a Cape buffalo. It worked apparently.
Possibly because of the frontal are of 20 bore vs 12 bore you might get deeper penetration. Just speculating.

Yes, Tony has killed buffalo with both his 20 and 12 bore paradox guns. However, the bullets and loads were specifically worked up for the hunts by Ross Seyfried. And it is Makris. He has been a friend for nearly 20 years.

 

[CraigV]

IvW,

Fantastic read and great discussion that follows.

In fact, I enjoyed your post so much, that's why I joined AH. I have been watching the board for a while and this legitimately made me join.

The fact you have done so much work (hunting) with this set-up proves that there are many different tools to accomplish the job.

So, now I want to build something similar, in 20GA, so if anyone has one in their safe, hiding from the light of day, let me know. Please nothing rare or expensive - in the event it doesn't work, and well...

Thanks.

 

[Ruraldoc]

IvW,

Thanks for this thread,I just discovered it.
I have a Krieghoff Drilling in 16 Gauge over 6.5x57R.

The Two 16 gauge barrels will put two Breneke slugs into one raged hole at 25 meters.

Planning on using it for deer and hogs this year. I tested the slugs on some trapped hogs and they were quick killers that exited on broadside shots.

 

[Altitude sickness]

A CZ sharptail coach in 12 or 20 ga. 20” barrels with choke tubes.

I have an O/U and SxS with 20” barrels.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

A CZ sharptail coach in 12 or 20 ga. 20” barrels with choke tubes.

I have an O/U and SxS with 20” barrels.

@Altitude sickness
I used to use a,Rossi brand coach gun with external hammers on pigs. It was loaded with buckshot in one barrel and slug in the other. I made the mistake of firing both barrels at once one time at a pissed off big boar. It was something that I only ever did once. Holy snappin duck shit batman that hurt. Result one very dead pig and one very bruised shoulder. Those hard plastic but plates aren't user friendly in that situation.
Bob

 

[USN]

HSDSB! Is one of the best quotes ever. I do believe we all felt that kick from your write up. I plan on stealing that when appropriate to do so. Thanks in advance

 

[Daniel Cary]

THE POOR MAN’S DOUBLE RIFLE
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When I started my PH career, I just wanted to hunt DG. I jumped at any opportunity that arose and ended up hunting a lot of DG including PAC animals.

My first two years included taking care of problem leopards and Lion’s that wreaked havoc under the foals and calves on a 35000-acre area south west of Lion’s Den. I had no rifle at the time and had to make do with what I got from the outfitter and ranch owner. These where a 308 Win and a 7x57mm. I shot 7 leopard, 5 lionesses, more buffalo than I can remember and 1 Lion. For the buffalo I was permitted to use a spare 375 H&H and on very rare occasions the outfitters 500 Jeff, but not for the rest. I ended up shooting some of the buffalo with the 7x57mm as we bumped into them while out hunting other game for the pot. I always had a tracker with me and we used horses on most of the hunts to get to where we were going. I know these are not recommended for the purpose and even back then probably illegal, but it was the way it was.

During my first two years in between hunts where I was mostly in charge of looking after the camp while on safari, I spent many hrs checking and replenishing baits. Every now and then I would be invited to go along hunting elephant and buffalo. This was the life.

It was a very “wild” ranch and the cattle where just as wild as the game. If the owner ran short on cash we use to go out and shoot a “mombe” bullock and take it to the Lion’s den butchery for some well needed cash.

When we got sick of eating beef, I was sent out to shoot Impala or Sable (yes Sable!!) for a change in diet.

All the leopard and lion I shot during this time where shot over bait. I always made my blinds inside a tree as I often had to spend the night there on my own. These cat’s where also streetwise as they were livestock killers and I was very careful with regards to shot placement and never had to follow up any wounded leopard or lion.

After starting as a Freelance PH, I bought a 375 H&H believing I had the perfect back-up rifle. It served me well. I also bought a 500 Jeff which became my primary DG back up rifle.

Then on one hunt, a fellow PH’s client had wounded a leopard and they needed help on the back-up. As things developed on the follow up, we ended up being very lucky. The speed and ferocity of the attack was just mind boggling, the cat launching from an ant bear hole, the other PH used a buckshot loaded shotgun. First shot had no effect and as the cat launched, he fired the second barrel hitting the neck and shoulder, the cat bounced off him after grounding him and then took off after the tracker, who had decided distance between him and the enraged leopard was the best course of action. I could not shoot as the cat was between me and the tracker. As the tracker swerved, I fired and luckily dropped the cat. It took the tracker 45 minutes to return!!

At the skinning shed we found some pellets just under the skin, very dismal performance.

What stuck with me though was the fact that he had been able to get off 2 shots in the split seconds of the attack.

Having studied and read as much as I could about DG hunting and in particular following up on leopard it is mentioned that a shotgun loaded with buckshot is the way to go. You have 2 instant shots etc. etc.

I needed a double rifle but on my meager earnings could only dream as I could not afford one.

It needed to be light enough and short enough that if I have fired the first shot and I still had to be able to use the firearm with only my right hand to fire the second barrel if needed.

I read about somebody who had made a “Poor man’s double” from a shotgun.

I bought a Brno SxS shotgun with two triggers. I started experimenting with this on game mostly bush pig and warthogs. It very quickly became evident that buckshot of any size lacked penetration and was no good. I changed over to slugs in particular Brenneke slugs, wow what a difference!!!

Then I decided to shorten the barrels to make it more user friendly in the thick stuff and also to get rid of the chokes (3/4 and full). The gunsmith chopped off 4 inches and refitted the bead.

I continued my experiments and shot warthogs, bush pigs, impala, kudu, gemsbuck and blue wildebeest with it.

Being very satisfied with the results, I took it back to the gunsmith and had a proper front sight fitted and also a ghost ring sight on the back.

I now had my leopard medicine and an affordable and very effective “Poor man’s double”

I have used it extensively ever since.

The 4 inch section that was cut off and the front sight after it was fitted over the original bead. In the beginning I just used the bead.

View attachment 266508

The action and the ghost ring sight fitted on the back.

View attachment 266507

Top view of the front sight.

View attachment 266505

Top view of the ghost ring sight.

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Brenneke slugs, original on the left, the other local fitted with Brenneke slugs, Armour brass solid brass case, that I use now for reloading and an original Brenneke slugs, good medicine for the “Poor man’s double”

View attachment 266504
Excuse the pictures as they are pictures of pictures…some animals I hunted with the “Poor man’s double” during testing.

A warthog takes his last dip.

View attachment 266509

Poor man’s buffalo, the perfect platform for testing..

View attachment 266502

Kudu

View attachment 266501

Warthog.

View attachment 266500

Impala
View attachment 266510


This was the longest shot before the Ghost ring and sight was fitted, just with the bead. 87 Long walking paces. I shot the ram from the treeline in the back ground at almost last light, he dropped on the spot.

View attachment 266511
Blue wildebeest wounded by client and followed up and shot with the “Poor man’s double” and Brenneke slug.

View attachment 266512

And another..

View attachment 266513

Another one horned Impala.




View attachment 266532

Using the “Poor man’s double” as back up on a Gemsbuck hunt. And no, the barrels are not pointed at his head I am sitting behind him.

View attachment 266534

I hope this has given some insight into a cheap alternative to anybody who has ever thought about doing the same. Used within its limitations it is a wonderfully effective tool and I have had a lot of success and fun with this combination.

Curious the "Benefit of Solid Brass Case"?
Excellent hx and writing.

 

[Bert01]

Just got a Brno like @IvW, I was thinking of keeping the shotgun barrels as is and making a set of 45-70 barrels for it.

 

[Excessexpress]

Just got a Brno like @IvW, I was thinking of keeping the shotgun barrels as is and making a set of 45-70 barrels for it.

That or a set of 12Ga barrels either smooth or rifled and set up for slugs would be sweet!

 

[IvW]

Curious the "Benefit of Solid Brass Case"?
Excellent hx and writing.

Easy extraction
Reloadable
Realy cool look factor