Ranch Lion Hunting in South Africa

[johnnyblues]

What a shit storm of emotion and regulations have occurred since Cecil. And this is what we get when we have no real and immediate voice to combat the social outrage that was allowed to perpetrate the non hunting public. IF we had as I have suggested a powerful PR firm to respond immediately to theses situations maybe just maybe the impact would not be as severe. We all know this will not stop here, IMO leopard hunting is next. What then buffalo? Advark??? Ostrich??? You all get my point. We have sat back on our laurels assuming organizations like SCI and maybe DSC will take charge and bring the fight, but they have not. At least not in a way that will reach the general public. And that is exactly where we have to reach. Remember it's public opinion that drives politicians , and others like the airlines, shipping companies, and other venues that would host hunting related shows etc.

No one in this country really cares anymore about wildlife where hunting is involved, at least not in the Gov't. Our system seems to respond to public sentiment now a days. Science when it comes to wildlife has taken a back seat. No one listens to CITIES anymore unless it's to STOP hunting a species. Our core values have gone down the shitter. Our heritage is being attacked and slowly we are losing our past greatness on all levels. Gone it seems are the day's when America meant something. IMO we can thank the Democrats for fundamentally changing our country for votes. My god.......where the hell are we headed?

 

[wesheltonj]

I can tell you where we are headed, if a Democrat or liberal Republican get elected as the next President, he will have at least 1 and maybe up to 4 appointments to the Supreme Court. Heller was a 5 to 4 vote, it takes just 1 vote to say you don't have an individual right to own firearms and that's just not the black guns.

 

[CAustin]

Mr Potgieter made good points. I do hope the SA government will take up the challenge on informing USFW. If you ask me the fact that there are 100,000 lions captive in South Africa, and some of them being hunted is a means of preserving the species. They are there and could be released into the wild to replenish numbers in the wild......sort of what USFW does with fish from hatcheries.
My two cents worth !

 

[johnnyblues]

Mr Potgieter made good points. I do hope the SA government will take up the challenge on informing USFW. If you ask me the fact that there are 100,000 lions captive in South Africa, and some of them being hunted is a means of preserving the species. They are there and could be released into the wild to replenish numbers in the wild......sort of what USFW does with fish from hatcheries.
My two cents worth !

I also thought that same thing Charlie, I just wonder if they could survive in the wild. I mean if that's possible then why not raise them and reintroduce them into the wild. I guess the argument then becomes human encroachment...

 

[BRICKBURN]

.............. I mean if that's possible then why not raise them and reintroduce them into the wild. I guess the argument then becomes human encroachment...

Heard of many Montana Ranchers loving the reintroduction of Wolves into the local parks?

 

[BRICKBURN]

..................... They are there and could be released into the wild to replenish numbers in the wild......sort of what USFW does with fish from hatcheries.

Hatchery releases are all done within the boundaries of one country. There is no place in South Africa to "reintroduce" Lions into the wild (skip the parks, they have their own)
That leaves other countries. Moz, Zim, Tanz, Zambia, ??...
You would need a concerted program, with some science driving it. Which is exactly what the FWS is demanding in the directive: Prove the conservation value.

With SAPA's tone do you get a sense they are about to dance to the USFWS drum?

 

[wesheltonj]

Mr Potgieter made good points. I do hope the SA government will take up the challenge on informing USFW. If you ask me the fact that there are 100,000 lions captive in South Africa, and some of them being hunted is a means of preserving the species. They are there and could be released into the wild to replenish numbers in the wild......sort of what USFW does with fish from hatcheries.
My two cents worth !

"Captive Lions


In analyzing threats to a species, we focus our analysis on threats acting upon wild specimens within the native range of the species, because the goal of the Act is survival and recovery of the species within its native ecosystem. We do not separately analyze ‘‘threats’’ to captive-held specimens because the statutory five factors under section 4 (16 U.S.C. 1533) are not well-suited to consideration of specimens in captivity, and captive-held specimens are not eligible for separate consideration for listing. However, we do consider the extent to which specimens held in captivity create, contribute to, reduce, or remove threats to the species.

In 2009, approximately 3,600 captiveheld lions were managed for trophy hunting across 174 breeding facilities in South Africa ((Lindsey et al. 2012, p. 18, citing Taijaard 2009; Barnett et al. 2006a, p. 513). The captive-breeding industry often publicizes captive breeding and reintroduction of captiveborn species into the wild as a potential solution to the decrease in wild lion populations. However, lions raised in captivity often develop a variety of issues that make them unsuitable for reintroduction. Captive lions in general are not suitable for reintroduction due to their uncertain genetic origins (Barnett et al. 2006a, p. 513; Hunter et al. 2012, p. 3), potential maladaptive behaviors, and higher failure risk compared to translocated individuals (Hunter et al. 2012, pp. 2–3). Research has indicated that restoration efforts using wild-caught individuals have a much higher rate of success than those using captive-raised individuals for a large variety of species (Hunter et al. 2012, p. 21). Currently, reintroduction efforts of captive-raised lions have not been shown to address the underlying causes of populations’ declines throughout the species range.

We note that while the captive-lion industry may not be contributing to the conservation of the species in the wild via reintroduction, the captive-lion industry in South Africa may reduce the pressures of trophy hunting on the wild populations in South Africa (Hargreaves 2010b in Lindsey et al. 2012, p. 12; Lindsey et al. 2012, p. 19), which is evidenced by the fact that 99 percent of lion trophies from South Africa are of captive origin. Lindsey et al. (2012, p. 21) warn that future efforts to control hunting of captive-bred lions could potentially increase the demand for wild lion trophies and result in excessive harvests. However, we also note that trade in bones of captive lions could stimulate harvest of wild lions to supply a growing bone trade (Lindsey et al. 2012, p. 20). Hunting of captive lions could also potentially undermine the price of wild hunts and reduce incentives for conservation of wild lions in other African Countries (Lindsey et al. 2012, p. 12).

Limited research has been conducted on the use of captive-raised lions for reintroduction purposes. Existing research has generally found that captive-raised lions are not as able to successfully adapt to conditions out of captivity and therefore, the success rate is much reduced compared to the use of wild-caught lions. Although some potential exists that the captive-lion industry in South Africa may benefit some local wild populations, additional research would be needed to verify this claim. As a result, we do not believe that the captive-lion industry currently contributes to, reduces, or removes threats to the species."

But the short answer is it will be years before you get a lion into the USA.

 

[BRICKBURN]

What is the source? @wesheltonj

 

[wesheltonj]

What is the source? @wesheltonj

Department of the Interior
Fish and Wildlife Service
50 CFR Part 17
Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants; Listing Two Lion Subspecies; Final Rule

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

Department of the Interior
Fish and Wildlife Service
50 CFR Part 17
Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants; Listing Two Lion Subspecies; Final Rule

Here is the document: Listing Two Lion Subspecies: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/listing-two-lion-subspecies.25313/.

 

[johnnyblues]

Heard of many Montana Ranchers loving the reintroduction of Wolves into the local parks?

Definitely not.. Seems to be no solution to satisfy all concerned.

 

[johnnyblues]

Guess my dream of harvesting a lion may be done...

 

[Wheels]

Guess my dream of harvesting a lion may be done...

You might want to do that leopard soon. Leopard hunts seemed to be selling well at DSC. Will they be around in 2018? My guess is that is the next target animal.

 

[johnnyblues]

Completely agree. Hope to do it possibly next year

 

[wesheltonj]

You might want to do that leopard soon. Leopard hunts seemed to be selling well at DSC. Will they be around in 2018? My guess is that is the next target animal.

That would be a fair guess, they are even harder to catalog then lions, so way to know there true numbers, making them an easy target (so to speak) for listing.

On the other hand, you just can't import the lion remains. And I would be careful with the photos too.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Definitely not.. Seems to be no solution to satisfy all concerned.

There is. Just pay the rancher for the cattle that are killed by the Wolves. Crop Damage.
Pay's it stays works in our back yard just as well.

 

[BRICKBURN]

......
On the other hand, you just can't import the lion remains. And I would be careful with the photos too.

Import all the Photos you want. They can't stop that.
Go hunting, you just can't take the trophy home.

 

[Hank2211]

What a shit storm of emotion and regulations have occurred since Cecil. And this is what we get when we have no real and immediate voice to combat the social outrage that was allowed to perpetrate the non hunting public. IF we had as I have suggested a powerful PR firm to respond immediately to theses situations maybe just maybe the impact would not be as severe. We all know this will not stop here, IMO leopard hunting is next. What then buffalo? Advark??? Ostrich??? You all get my point. We have sat back on our laurels assuming organizations like SCI and maybe DSC will take charge and bring the fight, but they have not. At least not in a way that will reach the general public. And that is exactly where we have to reach. Remember it's public opinion that drives politicians , and others like the airlines, shipping companies, and other venues that would host hunting related shows etc.

No one in this country really cares anymore about wildlife where hunting is involved, at least not in the Gov't. Our system seems to respond to public sentiment now a days. Science when it comes to wildlife has taken a back seat. No one listens to CITIES anymore unless it's to STOP hunting a species. Our core values have gone down the shitter. Our heritage is being attacked and slowly we are losing our past greatness on all levels. Gone it seems are the day's when America meant something. IMO we can thank the Democrats for fundamentally changing our country for votes. My god.......where the hell are we headed?

Is it lost on anyone that Cecil was a wild lion, hunted in a wild setting? Cecil had nothing whatsoever to do with captive bred lions or animals.

Yet - and this is the important point - a wild hunt is generally considered to be the impetus for a ban on hunting (by way of an import ban) of the animal concerned.

Do we need more or better evidence that this movement isn't about captive animal hunting but about hunting generally?

Remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!

 

[BRICKBURN]

...............
Remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!

True .

 

[LivingTheDream]

You might want to do that leopard soon. Leopard hunts seemed to be selling well at DSC. Will they be around in 2018? My guess is that is the next target animal.

No no no no no!! This is my nightmare!! I guess I could still hunt one and have it mounted and donated to a lodge in Namibia so I could visit it someday with my kids but walking away from a Leopard would be brutally hard to do.