Reloading can be dangerous and scary if you don't do it right

[457121]

Why would QL give such differing powder weights for the Hornady (37gr) and the Woodleigh (34.5gr) when they are the same weight and almost the same ogive/nose profile?

Bullet construction and material composition. For example: with regular cup/core bullets Speer's give higher pressure than Sierra's and Hornady in the same caliber and weight. Not every manufacturer uses the same jacket alloy/lead core alloy.

 

[457121]

Forgot to say,
Lee will make custom FCDies for cartridges not normally
stocked, at a reasonable price.

I modified a Lee 6.5x55 Swede Factory Crimp die for my M-S 6.5x54

 

[Jefferry404]

went thru the VIH manual for cartridges with similar PSI rating and data for n160.
cartridge bullet min chg min psi load density
5.6x52R 71gn RWS SP 27.2 28692 93.2%
6.5x57R 156gn Norma SP 38.8 31523 75.0%
7x57R 160gn Sierra SPBT 42.9 32753 85.7%
and then OP info:

6.5x54MS 160gn WDL RN 34.2 29261 78.9%
6.5x54MS 160gn HYD RN3 37.0 36178 87.1%

The OP load is about the lowest load density and lowest pressure for N160 loads.
Just wondering. N160 is a slow powder and loaded with a low peak pressure (burn rate is nearly proportional to PSI) and low load density. Does the bullet get started, stop, reducing gas volume,
and the gunpowder goes from deflagration into detonation, i.e. "Secondary Explosion Effect ".
Steve

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Back in 2017 I had a similar thing happen to me. I own a 19" Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5 x54 MS that I wanted to take to the range for the first time. I took the rifle out for load development.

I used the Woodleigh reloading manual as a primary reference as I was shooting the 160g RN Woodleigh bullets. Brand new RWS brass was used.

My aim was to reach a velocity of around 2250fps or to sight regulation.

My first round was loaded with H4831SC powder.
The load range Woodleigh gives for this powder is 36.0 gr Min with a Max of 40gr.

I started at 35gr's. 1 gr below minimum.

The first shot gave me a velocity of 2208fps. Great !

2nd round was loaded to 36 g which gave 2184fps, the third round was loaded with 37gr. and then..... boom.

Without warning I got a face full of debris, luckily I was wearing shooting glasses. I had to pound the bolt open with a rubber mallet to extract the case.

Case head separation as well as a destroyed case-head. Velocity of this round was 2255fps. The pressure spike was actually so high that it cracked the extractor in the process.

I sent the rifle to David Millar with my reloads to review.
He confirmed that the loads were correctly loaded after pulling them and weighing them. His initial thoughts were that it might have been a case of we loading the wrong powder. I only open one bottle at a time. He later felt it might have been powder detonation.

He however found that when even loading the cartridge with H4350 and a filler he would also get case head separation. He then made a die to expand the necks to 7mm and then he partially sized the neck to 6.5 to set the headspace back.

He then shot 30 rounds of 100 gr Spirepoints after this modification in the resizing practice without any incident.

He said he felt it was probably safe to shoot at moderate velocities and with lighter bullets.

I have not fired the rifle once since then......

View attachment 676983

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Interestingly we both use Woodleigh's 160 gr bullets and powders with very similar burn rates.
According to my burn rate chart they are exactly next to one another in burn rate.....

 

[SaintPanzer]

Back in 2017 I had a similar thing happen to me. I own a 19" Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5 x54 MS that I wanted to take to the range for the first time. I took the rifle out for load development.

I used the Woodleigh reloading manual as a primary reference as I was shooting the 160g RN Woodleigh bullets. Brand new RWS brass was used.

My aim was to reach a velocity of around 2250fps or to sight regulation.

My first round was loaded with H4831SC powder.
The load range Woodleigh gives for this powder is 36.0 gr Min with a Max of 40gr.

I started at 35gr's. 1 gr below minimum.

The first shot gave me a velocity of 2208fps. Great !

2nd round was loaded to 36 g which gave 2184fps, the third round was loaded with 37gr. and then..... boom.

Without warning I got a face full of debris, luckily I was wearing shooting glasses. I had to pound the bolt open with a rubber mallet to extract the case.

Case head separation as well as a destroyed case-head. Velocity of this round was 2255fps. The pressure spike was actually so high that it cracked the extractor in the process.

I sent the rifle to David Millar with my reloads to review.
He confirmed that the loads were correctly loaded after pulling them and weighing them. His initial thoughts were that it might have been a case of we loading the wrong powder. I only open one bottle at a time. He later felt it might have been powder detonation.

He however found that when even loading the cartridge with H4350 and a filler he would also get case head separation. He then made a die to expand the necks to 7mm and then he partially sized the neck to 6.5 to set the headspace back.

He then shot 30 rounds of 100 gr Spirepoints after this modification in the resizing practice without any incident.

He said he felt it was probably safe to shoot at moderate velocities and with lighter bullets.

I have not fired the rifle once since then......

View attachment 676986View attachment 676987

View attachment 676988
View attachment 676983

Now that is very interesting. My issue was not quite that bad, but it seems there's something up with the Woodleighs. The 156 grain Oryx and 160 grain Hornadys did not have this problem, so I think it is not so much bullet weight as it is bullet construction. One other thing I just thought of: I've been carrying these bullets around since 2016 and just got to use them (long story) , which is near your 2017 timeline. We should check lot numbers.

I am really starting to think it has something to do with the bullet being fairly tight in the rifling.

 

[SaintPanzer]

wondering if the charge was to low? I fit QL to Vih. data for the 6.5x57r as similar psi rating and case capacity and then used that for the 6.5x54 and shows the pressure is really low, around 30kpsi and vel. only 2073fps. Is the powder burning?, detonating? Did the bullet leave the case and stop, lowering the gas volume and pressure even further and then explosive? Maybe...
@SaintPanzer did everything reloaders do, and was quite thorough and looked at many elements that could be the issue. Perhaps the principle of Occam's razor applies to the low pressure?
Steve
View attachment 676905

Yes, my first concern was going too low. But 34.5 grains gave me over 2200 fps velocity. It was the next step above that which had the problem, and that gave 2259 fps. That's far higher than the QL calculation. I should have stopped the first time I saw higher than expected velocities. Normally, my QL calculations give about 50fps less than what the Labradar measures.

My QL graph does look similar, though case length should be 2.010, and COAL was 3.057. Barrel length is 17.7. That's not a big difference, it just means the bullet would be seated farther, and would give a little more pressure. I did see similar % filled. 92% burn is near what I saw (I'd have to go back to my notes).

I think it's a good reminder that QL is a simulation/guide, and not the final answer.

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Now that is very interesting. My issue was not quite that bad, but it seems there's something up with the Woodleighs. The 156 grain Oryx and 160 grain Hornadys did not have this problem, so I think it is not so much bullet weight as it is bullet construction. One other thing I just thought of: I've been carrying these bullets around since 2016 and just got to use them (long story) , which is near your 2017 timeline. We should check lot numbers.

I am really starting to think it has something to do with the bullet being fairly tight in the rifling.

I do shoot that same Woodleighs in my 6.5 x55 Swede Cooper with no issues whatsoever.

 

[SaintPanzer]

It's a conundrum.

 

[Jefferry404]

i updated my QL to your input. My procedure with QL is to find published data (hopefully with psi info) of a cartridge with similar case volume, PSI rating and match velocity and pressure by adjusting the Burning Rate Factor, Ba and Weighing Factor, We (per Herr Broemel) until I match vel. and psi. In this case, just matched Vel using N160. In this way, a known data point calibrated in QL. Then apply those factors to the new similar cartridge. Obviously, the further the case capacity and psi deviate from the fitted data, the simulation deviates.
Below is update QL with your numbers. Shows expected velocity 1864fps! This suggest that even with the first WDL load, the pressure was quite high to get your measured velocity, so something already going wrong as you pointed out earlier.

There is not much neck grabbing on the bullet shank.
modelled the wdl with the CIP chamber specs, show below.

and expanded view

blue is the chamber, black is the wdl.
even with the long, shallow throat of the MS, there is bullet engagement
as you mentioned, the wdl nose compared to the hyd was fatter. Also, the hyd is 7/1000 shorted.

hyd length is 1.243"

Sorry for beading a dead horse but planning to use the 160gn WDL in my 6.5x55 and will definitely pay attention to the observations in this thread. thanks
Steve

 

[SaintPanzer]

There's the conundrum. Nothing there made me think I was anywhere near unsafe, the rifle checks out, headspace is correct, etc. Everything else (other bullets, NOS ammo) worked perfectly. It should have worked, and if someone else didn't say he had the same problem with the rifle/bullet combo, I'd think I was losing my mind! I'm starting to wonder if Woodleighs and Mannlichers are simply not compatible. It should work, shouldn't it? And yet there are issues.

 

[MS 9x56]

It's a conundrum.

Tis a puzzlement.

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

There's the conundrum. Nothing there made me think I was anywhere near unsafe, the rifle checks out, headspace is correct, etc. Everything else (other bullets, NOS ammo) worked perfectly. It should have worked, and if someone else didn't say he had the same problem with the rifle/bullet combo, I'd think I was losing my mind! I'm starting to wonder if Woodleighs and Mannlichers are simply not compatible. It should work, shouldn't it? And yet there are issues.

Felt exactly the same way.
I reload for more than 30 different cartridges since the age of 16 and nothing like this has ever happened to me.
Definitely jades your self confidence in regards too reloading when something like this happens.