Remington 700 BDL Questions

[Hoss Delgado]

Hoss

Actially , every round that has ever been fired out of a rifle is a stopper of something........... just maybe not what might be being shot at, but something none the less.

I genuinely like the 375 H&H, just not for stuff THAT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM WANTS TO HURT ME.....from any country.

I had a conversation with with a ph long ago about the hunters who bring big bore magnums to hunt with. He said that he's all for it as long as they can hit with it.

The most common of the monster mashers would be the 460 Weatherby. Yes! The recoil is brutal and yes! It is too brutal for most people to shoot accurately or even shoot at all. Having spent the majority of my life buying and selling firearms I believe that at one time I might have ad 7 or 8 used ones for sale at one time at a fair price. Of course the original owners did not like what I offered them for a gun with 2 rounds through it, but the gun if not sold correctly might sit there for a decade or two before one tire kicker finally spits out enough nickles after looking at it for the umteenth time.

Other one that are somewhat difficult to control are the 577 tr, the 600ok and who doesn't want a 505 or the numerous a&m or other torture sticks?

There is another fellow here who is a gentleman like yourself amd is a representative for Huntershill and just came bach from a murder spree of 17 one shot humane kill shots and has written a wonderful report and I believe you teo will get along well together.

Let us know how the shooting progresses with your new iron.

Thanks, Von S ! I return to the states in 14 days. I am currently in the UK . It's the Glorious 12th and Driven grouse shooting is a passion of mine. Unfortunately , l just realized that my Full choke 12 gauge BRNO over under is a really poor choice for this kind of shooting I am either missing them birds clean , or if l am hitting them , they are getting mangled so much , they don't make good eating . Oh , well. Looks like l have a new excuse to buy a new shotgun. Looking for a Cylinder Choke Winchester Model 21 with 3 inch Chambers which will give me open patterns with #6 and which l can also use as a double slug gun with Brenekke slugs

 

[Forrest Halley]

Oh how I love the wandering threads here! I truly learn so much.
Since I haven't seen it mentioned, what about checking the sear engagement on these malfunctioning 700's? I'd pay a dozen donuts that things had been either monkeyed with in that department or were not correct from the factory. I have a Pre and Post '72 700 and neither have ever gone boom when unbidden.
With regard to the the glorious diversion of .375 vs. .458:
1. I would get to the bottom of my seven shot rifle promptly. Sounds like something magical is occuring in the magazine. Best to be sure it's not voodoo that wears off/out unexpectedly. I have seen this with competition pistols where people try to stuff extra rounds into the magazines.
2. Who on Earth really wants a .458WM? There's a Lott of other cartridges to love besides that one. I'd go for a .416 Rigby for better penetration or a .450 3¼..for elegance, extraction, and better penetration. There, now I feel better about my .375 rifles again.

 

[sestoppelman]

The .375 is a perfectly adequate buffalo rifle for the visiting sportsman and many PH's carry same for backup, some big names too. My second buffalo taken in Botswana in 1990 quickly succumbed to one well placed 300 gr solid from a 140 paces. DRT! Never moved one foot. My PH, an old hand named Willy Englebrecht, now unfortunately deceased, said he had not seen such a quick kill on a buff in years, this was coupled with some typically colorful language for which he was justly famous!

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks, Von S ! I return to the states in 14 days. I am currently in the UK . It's the Glorious 12th and Driven grouse shooting is a passion of mine. Unfortunately , l just realized that my Full choke 12 gauge BRNO over under is a really poor choice for this kind of shooting I am either missing them birds clean , or if l am hitting them , they are getting mangled so much , they don't make good eating . Oh , well. Looks like l have a new excuse to buy a new shotgun. Looking for a Cylinder Choke Winchester Model 21 with 3 inch Chambers which will give me open patterns with #6 and which l can also use as a double slug gun with Brenekke slugs

Could be a very long search indeed for a 3” Model 21 with cylinder bores. One may have been built that way special order, and some shade tree gunsmith may have destroyed one’s collector value by reaming it out, but the vast majority of magnums were built as waterfowl guns with appropriately tight chokes. The majority of those so configured are marked “Duck”.

Since you apparently aren’t interested in guns tailored to the sport, such as traditional British game gun for driven grouse, and you have apparently moved on from a Greener 10 bore, why not simply get a modern quality 3-inch gun with choke tubes? Browning or Beretta produces such guns and you can configure it however the shooting or your latest interest demands.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Could be a very long search indeed for a 3” Model 21 with cylinder bores. One may have been built that way special order, and some shade tree gunsmith may have destroyed one’s collector value by reaming it out, but the vast majority of magnums were built as waterfowl guns with appropriately tight chokes. The majority of those so configured are marked “Duck”.

Since you apparently aren’t interested in guns tailored to the sport, such as traditional British game gun for driven grouse, and you have apparently moved on from a Greener 10 bore, why not simply get a modern quality 3-inch gun with choke tubes? Browning or Beretta produces such guns and you can configure it however the shooting or your latest interest demands.

Oh , l've been thinking of adding a side by side to my collection lately . But given my ( admittedly rather unsophisticated ) fondness for utilitarian guns , l want one which can shoot slugs . Preferably , 3 inch Chambers . Maybe , l could just get a Full choke Model 21 and shorten the barrels. I am concerned if the gun is regulated for slugs though.
About Greener , it appears they aren't making guns at the moment .
P.S : Was shooting with another hunter yesterday. He had this beautiful side by Side called a " Lang " which fired 2 1/2 inch 12 gauge shells through improved cylinder chokes. Beautiful piece of art. Given your taste for tailored guns , you'd like it . I'll try to take a picture of it tomorrow and inbox you

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Oh how I love the wandering threads here! I truly learn so much.
Since I haven't seen it mentioned, what about checking the sear engagement on these malfunctioning 700's? I'd pay a dozen donuts that things had been either monkeyed with in that department or were not correct from the factory. I have a Pre and Post '72 700 and neither have ever gone boom when unbidden.
With regard to the the glorious diversion of .375 vs. .458:
1. I would get to the bottom of my seven shot rifle promptly. Sounds like something magical is occuring in the magazine. Best to be sure it's not voodoo that wears off/out unexpectedly. I have seen this with competition pistols where people try to stuff extra rounds into the magazines.
2. Who on Earth really wants a .458WM? There's a Lott of other cartridges to love besides that one. I'd go for a .416 Rigby for better penetration or a .450 3¼..for elegance, extraction, and better penetration. There, now I feel better about my .375 rifles again.

Good points , but
1. I am not the only one with this 7 shot BRNO ZKK 602 phenomenon. Some other guy on You tube has a .375 HH Magnum BRNO ZKK - 602 with a 7 round capacity as well . Hardly voodoo. Whether someone modified the magazine or whether the gun left the factory like that is a good question. I will send a picture to IvW when l return to the states.
2) Even though , l share your sentiments about the .458 Winchester Magnum , l have to admit that on some circumstances , it is good gun. I have a letter from a retired Professional Hunter called Terry Irwin who shot around a thousand Elephant for the Game Department back in the 1960s and 1970s . His personal large caliber rifle was a .458 Winchester Magnum Mannlicher Shoenauer ( which was only produced from 1958 to 1960 ) . He reported that If the rifle has a 26 inch Barrel , then one could achieve the correct Velocity from the .458 Winchester Magnum. This was said to him by the Steyr Mannlicher company themselves when he built him that gun.

 

[Red Leg]

Oh , l've been thinking of adding a side by side to my collection lately . But given my ( admittedly rather unsophisticated ) fondness for utilitarian guns , l want one which can shoot slugs . Preferably , 3 inch Chambers . Maybe , l could just get a Full choke Model 21 and shorten the barrels. I am concerned if the gun is regulated for slugs though.
About Greener , it appears they aren't making guns at the moment .
P.S : Was shooting with another hunter yesterday. He had this beautiful side by Side called a " Lang " which fired 2 1/2 inch 12 gauge shells through improved cylinder chokes. Beautiful piece of art. Given your taste for tailored guns , you'd like it . I'll try to take a picture of it tomorrow and inbox you

I owned a Lang & Hussey sidelock for a number of years. They are wonderful guns from Britain's Golden Age of gunmaking. As I assume you are aware, standard chambers for a British game gun, is 2.5 inches and proofed for a 1 1/8 ounce load. They are perfectly balanced to deliver that load or lighter with great precision. My current favorite 12 bore game guns are a Steven Grant sidelock, Galand Sidelock, Grulla sidelock, and James MacNaughton round body. All have taken literally thousands of driven and wild pheasants and grouse with 2.5" 1 and 1 1/8 ounce loads of No. 6. Fortunately, 2.5 inch shells are easily obtained and can be delivered by the flat to one's front door. Their stable mates are 20 and 28 bore guns that I use for quail.

I should note that a sxs cylinder bore is about as bad a choice for driven birds as one could find. Moreover, most commercial quail hunting plantations will not allow you to even use such a 12 bore at all. And you would only use it once on any private reserves/ properties where I am invited to hunt "birds" (quail).

Finally, it would be just short of criminal to destroy a Model 21 by shortening its barrels. They are valuable, irreplaceable collector pieces. One in good shape will run you 6- 8 thousand dollars - often quite a bit more. With the barrels trimmed it is worthless to a collector.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I owned a Lang & Hussey sidelock for a number of years. They are wonderful guns from Britain's Golden Age of gunmaking. As I assume you are aware, standard chambers for a British game gun, is 2.5 inches and proofed for a 1 1/8 ounce load. They are perfectly balanced to deliver that load or lighter with great precision. My current favorite 12 bore game guns are a Steven Grant sidelock, Galand Sidelock, Grulla sidelock, and James MacNaughton round body. All have taken literally thousands of driven and wild pheasants and grouse with 2.5" 1 and 1 1/8 ounce loads of No. 6. Fortunately, 2.5 inch shells are easily obtained and can be delivered by the flat to one's front door. Their stable mates are 20 and 28 bore guns that I use for quail.

I should note that a sxs cylinder bore is about as bad a choice for driven birds as one could find. Moreover, most commercial quail hunting plantations will not allow you to even use such a 12 bore at all. And you would only use it once on any private reserves/ properties where I am invited to hunt "birds" (quail).

Finally, it would be just short of criminal to destroy a Model 21 by shortening its barrels. They are valuable, irreplaceable collector pieces. One in good shape will run you 6- 8 thousand dollars - often quite a bit more. With the barrels trimmed it is worthless to a collector.

Red Leg , l can't talk about Quail , but in the Grouse Moor , l am at Now , 12 and 20 gauge seem the standard. Mostly side by side English game guns. A couple of Berreta Over Unders and the odd Miroku are there. I have my BRNO over under . One guy has a 16 gauge Holland and Holland. BTW , why are cylinder choke side by sides bad for grouse ?

 

[Forrest Halley]

Good points , but
1. I am not the only one with this 7 shot BRNO ZKK 602 phenomenon. Some other guy on You tube has a .375 HH Magnum BRNO ZKK - 602 with a 7 round capacity as well . Hardly voodoo. Whether someone modified the magazine or whether the gun left the factory like that is a good question. I will send a picture to IvW when l return to the states.
2) Even though , l share your sentiments about the .458 Winchester Magnum , l have to admit that on some circumstances , it is good gun. I have a letter from a retired Professional Hunter called Terry Irwin who shot around a thousand Elephant for the Game Department back in the 1960s and 1970s . His personal large caliber rifle was a .458 Winchester Magnum Mannlicher Shoenauer ( which was only produced from 1958 to 1960 ) . He reported that If the rifle has a 26 inch Barrel , then one could achieve the correct Velocity from the .458 Winchester Magnum. This was said to him by the Steyr Mannlicher company themselves when he built him that gun.

I thought for a second you had a CZ and later realized I had misread your post.
I'd definitely be interested in a long barreled .458, but I favor the versatility of the .375. I'd be happier to shoot the larger caliber in something like a #1 with some weight to it and a long barrel, but since the advent of the Lott, why worry with the WM? You could have a 28" Lott and be ahead with the option to use the WM. However if I were going that route, I might as well make ejection simpler and go for the .450 3¼.

 

[Red Leg]

Red Leg , l can't talk about Quail , but in the Grouse Moor , l am at Now , 12 and 20 gauge seem the standard. Mostly side by side English game guns. A couple of Berreta Over Unders and the odd Miroku are there. I have my BRNO over under . One guy has a 16 gauge Holland and Holland. BTW , why are cylinder choke side by sides bad for grouse ?

The purpose of a SxS is to offer two choices of pattern depending upon the presentation of the shot. On driven birds one often has a first shot at fairly close range inbound and a second at a target starting to widen range. The vast majority of game guns were built with relatively little constriction in the right barrel and tighter in the left - typically what we would call something like Sk#1 or IC in the right and Mod or Imp Mod in the left. It is also why quality game guns are still built with two triggers rather than one, in order to allow an instant selection rather than fumbling with a button. In any given shoot, I have many times taken a high and then a low with the left barrel first. The high and departing birds become very difficult with no choke due to pattern spread and resulting holes - or the bird is merely wounded.

I would note the literature on the use and shooting of English and Continental game guns is at least as rich as that of Africa.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

The purpose of a SxS is to offer two choices of pattern depending upon the presentation of the shot. On driven birds one often has a first shot at fairly close range inbound and a second at a target starting to widen range. The vast majority of game guns were built with relatively little constriction in the right barrel and tighter in the left - typically what we would call something like Sk#1 or IC in the right and Mod or Imp Mod in the left. It is also why quality game guns are still built with two triggers rather than one, in order to allow an instant selection rather than fumbling with a button. In any given shoot, I have many times taken a high and then a low with the left barrel first. The high and departing birds become very difficult with no choke due to pattern spread and resulting holes - or the bird is merely wounded.

I would note the literature on the use and shooting of English and Continental game guns is at least as rich as that of Africa.

Thanks Red Leg. Can l accurately and safely shoot slugs through A Winchester Model 21 Duck model ? Then l will just buy the full choke gun as it is .

 

[Forrest Halley]

Respectfully, why not select an SKB for this task? Several of them have been butchered by cowboy action shooters...they would be perfect for your experiment. The chambers would likely be honed and beveled so reloads would be very fast.

 

[Red Leg]

Safely - yes. Accurately - who knows. - but probably not. It is not why it was built.

 

[Desert Dog]

Lest we forget the Army and Marines both used this platform for their sniper rifles since Viet Nam and still do.

The 700 has been the basis of the Army and USMC primary sniper systems for decades. The military uses it because it is accurate and dependable in the worst possible conditions.

OK, lets keep it real here. The Model 700 WAS NOT dependable, and the USMC started building their own. What the military uses is absolutely nothing like a factory R700 in any way. The military buys BARE receivers from Remington. The armorers bead blast the bare receiver, add a Slilen/Hart/Schneider barrel, add a custom machined recoil lug (that the USMC makes), True the action to their specs, add a Winchester model 70-style trigger guard and floor plate (then later Badger Ordinance DBM is used), A very light custom trigger, and bed the whole custom rifle into a McMillan stock. The new Mk13Mod7 rifles replacing the M40A6 use an M16-style extractor on a Stiller action because of extractor issues with the 300 magnums on the Rem platform.

The Rem700 platform is an exceedingly easy system for armorers to repair and maintain in comparison to other designs (have you ever tried to rebarrel a pre-64 M70?), but comparing an M40A6 to the crap that comes out of the Remington factory is a bad comparison at best.

Just because the US military uses something does not make it great or the best. I would rather wear my Kenetrek boots and Kuiu pants for a week of hunting, than a pair of combat boots and ACUs. Matter of fact, many of my rifles are better than what military snipers use.

Rant over.

 

[Red Leg]

OK, lets keep it real here. The Model 700 WAS NOT dependable, and the USMC started building their own. What the military uses is absolutely nothing like a factory R700 in any way. The military buys BARE receivers from Remington. The armorers bead blast the bare receiver, add a Slilen/Hart/Schneider barrel, add a custom machined recoil lug (that the USMC makes), True the action to their specs, add a Winchester model 70-style trigger guard and floor plate (then later Badger Ordinance DBM is used), A very light custom trigger, and bed the whole custom rifle into a McMillan stock. The new Mk13Mod7 rifles replacing the M40A6 use an M16-style extractor on a Stiller action because of extractor issues with the 300 magnums on the Rem platform.

The Rem700 platform is an exceedingly easy system for armorers to repair and maintain in comparison to other designs (have you ever tried to rebarrel a pre-64 M70?), but comparing an M40A6 to the crap that comes out of the Remington factory is a bad comparison at best.

Just because the US military uses something does not make it great or the best. I would rather wear my Kenetrek boots and Kuiu pants for a week of hunting, than a pair of combat boots and ACUs. Matter of fact, many of my rifles are better than what military snipers use.

Rant over.

But they still started with a 700 - not a Winchester, Springfield, Mauser, or Savage. Just saying.

 

[sestoppelman]

Well someone doesn't like Remingtons!

 

[Forrest Halley]

OK, lets keep it real here.
...
The new Mk13Mod7 rifles replacing the M40A6 use an M16-style extractor on a Stiller action because of extractor issues with the 300 magnums on the Rem platform.
...
Rant over.

Okay, so in keeping it real, let's tell the truth as to why the extraction issues are occuring. The reason the extraction issues are occuring is because the load they are using is very hot as they are trying to stay supersonic beyond 1500 yards. Mk248Mod0/1/?. They all look at SAAMI and giggle.
I don't mind if someone doesn't prefer an action for one reason or another, but let's fully disclose the situation.
Besides, we were all talking about shotguns anyways...

 

[CBH Australia]

My only Rem 700 is a HB .223

Larry Potterfield of Midway USA built what he considered the “near perfect safari rifle” on a Rem 700 action, because that’s the way it is.
YouTube it!

 

[IvW]

Shame...No need for, gold, triggers, Nitrate, blueprinting, push feed .....blah blah blah on a DG rifle for Africa.

You need reliability each and every time.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

My only Rem 700 is a HB .223

Larry Potterfield of Midway USA built what he considered the “near perfect safari rifle” on a Rem 700 action, because that’s the way it is.
YouTube it!

https://www.midwayusa.com/larrys-short-stories/the-nearly-perfect-safari-rifle/28