Rigby Double Rifle

[AZDAVE]

With the contrast it now seem more to be a NE gun. I would send it to JJ and have him do an inspection and confirm first that it is a Nitro Express, then is it on face and safe to shoot. Is the stock sound and safe to shoot. Then you can start working on a load that will shoot to regulation of the rifle.

 

[rookhawk]

With the contrast it now seem more to be a NE gun. I would send it to JJ and have him do an inspection and confirm first that it is a Nitro Express, then is it on face and safe to shoot. Is the stock sound and safe to shoot. Then you can start working on a load that will shoot to regulation of the rifle.

I got to look at the Rigby ledger sheet from the OP. It is a Nitro Express gun made by W&C Scott for Rigby. It calls for cordite and a 480gr load, so its likely that it is 450 Nitro Express 3.25".

I asked the OP to measure length of pull (to see if the sights are going to line-up to original) and to verify the tubes are still 28" (so that it can regulate with a cordite-copy load using cup and core bullets).

If all that checks out, I recommended he do a $3k resto on it, then get Ken Owen to build him some loads provided he can find Woodleigh softs and solids that are cup and core.

 

[VertigoBE]

I got to look at the Rigby ledger sheet from the OP. It is a Nitro Express gun made by W&C Scott for Rigby. It calls for cordite and a 480gr load, so its likely that it is 450 Nitro Express 3.25".

I asked the OP to measure length of pull (to see if the sights are going to line-up to original) and to verify the tubes are still 28" (so that it can regulate with a cordite-copy load using cup and core bullets).

If all that checks out, I recommended he do a $3k resto on it, then get Ken Owen to build him some loads provided he can find Woodleigh softs and solids that are cup and core.

Looks like this was a great find. An original 450NE from Rigby, if in good working order, will be a rifle to be jealous off.

 

[baxterb]

I got to look at the Rigby ledger sheet from the OP. It is a Nitro Express gun made by W&C Scott for Rigby. It calls for cordite and a 480gr load, so its likely that it is 450 Nitro Express 3.25".

I asked the OP to measure length of pull (to see if the sights are going to line-up to original) and to verify the tubes are still 28" (so that it can regulate with a cordite-copy load using cup and core bullets).

If all that checks out, I recommended he do a $3k resto on it, then get Ken Owen to build him some loads provided he can find Woodleigh softs and solids that are cup and core.

That’s very cool. I know a guy who has a 1904 Army Navy 450 NE that was made by W&C Scott.

 

[pilar]

Uhgg! This post is very educational, yet embarrassing because I have never given shooting one of my friends double a second thought when I am offered the chance
Lots of good stuff to think about here , on safety and proofing, ect

 

[Franco]

Wow, interesting and informative - would any of you entertain the idea of expounding on cordite/blackpowder vs modern rifles?
I have a First Model Colt Dragoon, a Navy Colt, and a couple Sharps, but have never considered shooting them.

 

[rookhawk]

Wow, interesting and informative - would any of you entertain the idea of expounding on cordite/blackpowder vs modern rifles?
I have a First Model Colt Dragoon, a Navy Colt, and a couple Sharps, but have never considered shooting them.

Sure. Curtiss & Harvey was the major maker of black powder. If a gun was made for black powder, it will have BP proof marks only and will call for that. It’s smelly and dirty, so occasionally you’ll find black-powder equivelant pressure loads that use nitro powders. These require great expertise to make within stress levels of the original gun.

Cordite, special cordite, and stranded cordite were the first Nitro Cellulous powders. They are no longer made, but there are powders that have formulas to get you to equivelant pressures and burn rates. The most famous alternative is IMR3031.

No idea what is meant by modern rifles though. If in good condition, I have just as much confidence in the older guns calling for black or nitro powders than I do in something made in the past 20 years.

 

[grand veneur]

Muzzleloaders, be it handguns or rifles must be loaded with Black Powder or BP substitute like Pyrodex. No Nitrocellulose can be used there.

So-called Nitro for Black loads were developed for loading old black powder cartridges with NC powder. There are also loads available for this, loads that must be strictly followed because BP rifles are not always intended for the high pressures developed by using NC powder.

Cordite is a triple-base NC propellant so that all weapons that are regulated with it can also tolerate our modern NC powders. The question is with which loads. The safest way is to follow the current loading data, which are available for almost all old nitro cartridges. Almost all authors prefer to use slow-burning powders. You can use fast burning powder like the IMR 3031 in the same load as the original Cordite load, but in most cases you need a filler because cartridges that were intended for the Cordite strands have a lot of case volume. However, the use of fast burning powder is controversial discussed and rejected by many because it is considered dangerous. Nevertheless, I did it and it works better than some people think. I also fired Cordite loaded cartridges in my old double rifle caliber 577 Nitro Express, but I don't recommend anyone to use anything in particular, especially and for a lot of reasons not Cordite loaded cartridges. Everything has to be done at their own responsibility as no one knows in advance in what condition all of these old rifles are, in in particular Cordite loaded ammunition.

It is recommended to read the book SHOOTING the BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE by Graeme Wright as it is one of the best book when it comes to loading and shooting Nitro Express cartridges with double rifles. I load the cartridges 577 Nitro Express and 600 Nitro Express. Initially I had a lot of problems by reloading, but thanks to this book I was able to solve some of them. Unfortunately the books are extremely difficult to find.

 

[KJE81]

Muzzleloaders, be it handguns or rifles must be loaded with Black Powder or BP substitute like Pyrodex. No Nitrocellulose can be used there.

So-called Nitro for Black loads were developed for loading old black powder cartridges with NC powder. There are also loads available for this, loads that must be strictly followed because BP rifles are not always intended for the high pressures developed by using NC powder.

Cordite is a triple-base NC propellant so that all weapons that are regulated with it can also tolerate our modern NC powders. The question is with which loads. The safest way is to follow the current loading data, which are available for almost all old nitro cartridges. Almost all authors prefer to use slow-burning powders. You can use fast burning powder like the IMR 3031 in the same load as the original Cordite load, but in most cases you need a filler because cartridges that were intended for the Cordite strands have a lot of case volume. However, the use of fast burning powder is controversial discussed and rejected by many because it is considered dangerous. Nevertheless, I did it and it works better than some people think. I also fired Cordite loaded cartridges in my old double rifle caliber 577 Nitro Express, but I don't recommend anyone to use anything in particular, especially and for a lot of reasons not Cordite loaded cartridges. Everything has to be done at their own responsibility as no one knows in advance in what condition all of these old rifles are, in in particular Cordite loaded ammunition.

It is recommended to read the book SHOOTING the BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE by Graeme Wright as it is one of the best book when it comes to loading and shooting Nitro Express cartridges with double rifles. I load the cartridges 577 Nitro Express and 600 Nitro Express. Initially I had a lot of problems by reloading, but thanks to this book I was able to solve some of them. Unfortunately the books are extremely difficult to find.

Regarding the book in question I read here on the forum yesterday that a 4th edition would soon be available.

 

[grand veneur]

But you have to hurry to get one. I own the 2rd. and 3rd. Edition, is enough for me.

 

[Franco]

Sure. Curtiss & Harvey was the major maker of black powder. If a gun was made for black powder, it will have BP proof marks only and will call for that. It’s smelly and dirty, so occasionally you’ll find black-powder equivelant pressure loads that use nitro powders. These require great expertise to make within stress levels of the original gun.

Cordite, special cordite, and stranded cordite were the first Nitro Cellulous powders. They are no longer made, but there are powders that have formulas to get you to equivelant pressures and burn rates. The most famous alternative is IMR3031.

No idea what is meant by modern rifles though. If in good condition, I have just as much confidence in the older guns calling for black or nitro powders than I do in something made in the past 20 years.

Thank you

 

[rookhawk]

Muzzleloaders, be it handguns or rifles must be loaded with Black Powder or BP substitute like Pyrodex. No Nitrocellulose can be used there.

So-called Nitro for Black loads were developed for loading old black powder cartridges with NC powder. There are also loads available for this, loads that must be strictly followed because BP rifles are not always intended for the high pressures developed by using NC powder.

Cordite is a triple-base NC propellant so that all weapons that are regulated with it can also tolerate our modern NC powders. The question is with which loads. The safest way is to follow the current loading data, which are available for almost all old nitro cartridges. Almost all authors prefer to use slow-burning powders. You can use fast burning powder like the IMR 3031 in the same load as the original Cordite load, but in most cases you need a filler because cartridges that were intended for the Cordite strands have a lot of case volume. However, the use of fast burning powder is controversial discussed and rejected by many because it is considered dangerous. Nevertheless, I did it and it works better than some people think. I also fired Cordite loaded cartridges in my old double rifle caliber 577 Nitro Express, but I don't recommend anyone to use anything in particular, especially and for a lot of reasons not Cordite loaded cartridges. Everything has to be done at their own responsibility as no one knows in advance in what condition all of these old rifles are, in in particular Cordite loaded ammunition.

It is recommended to read the book SHOOTING the BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE by Graeme Wright as it is one of the best book when it comes to loading and shooting Nitro Express cartridges with double rifles. I load the cartridges 577 Nitro Express and 600 Nitro Express. Initially I had a lot of problems by reloading, but thanks to this book I was able to solve some of them. Unfortunately the books are extremely difficult to find.

What I'll say to the anti-3031 crowd is this. A fellow disregarded our advice on this forum <6 months ago with a sidelock 470NE made in the UK. The custom loader thought he knew better too, and made him up SAAMI spec loads using 105gr-108gr of IMR4831. Naturally it blew the barrels off the gun and the fellow is lucky to be alive. All for obsession about filling the case rather than using case filler. 3031 has properties similar to cordite, meaning that the pressure spikes are in the same areas of the throat and barrel. Going to a different powder EVEN when in specifications per SAAMI is not providing any assurance, those areas of the barrels were never stress tested in that manner when new. Add to that, its doubtful you'll get regulation with 4831 but you will enjoy over 100 foot pounds of recoil compared to 58-68lbs with 3031. The wood was never engineered for a 150% stress when it was made a century earlier.

The order of operations seeking regulation with low pressures goes like this: IMR3031, then RL15, Then H4350, then IMR4350, and dead last is IMR4831. If you can't get regulation with mild loads with the first powder, you go to the next powder trying to get regulation with moderate loads, and so on. The goal is to get real-world velocities of 2025fps-2075fps, NOT 2150fps which is likely unsafe in any load from a vintage double. We're trying to reproduce real-world cordite performance which was A.) a published lie at 2150fps a century ago, and B.) was using a 28" barrel rather than a 24"-26" that should have had 30fps less velocity per inch of barrel less than proof test barrels.

The goal is moderate regulating loads, people miss that plot completely and start pushing these powders up in velocity. If you're 3"-6" apart at 78gr of IMR3031 in a 470NE for example, you stop and reevaluate. That reevaluation may be changing filler type, or swapping bullet type (restarting at starting loads once more), OR it can be changing powder but going to a starting load once more.

The final result is supposed to be a load that regulates perfectly with low pressure and strikes the animal at least at 1900FPS upon impact. That's it, that will kill any dangerous game animal on the planet.

 

[KJE81]

But you have to hurry to get one. I own the 2rd. and 3rd. Edition, is enough for me.

I sold my 3rd edition a few months ago, I am done with double rifles

 

[grand veneur]

The book is primarily a manual for reloaders and shooters of old double rifles, Britisch made but not only. This shooters are in many cases dependent on reloading in order to find an accurate load for their rifle. The factory loads do try to copy the old original loads, but this is very theoretical. The burning process in the chamber and the barrels is no longer the same. Cordite was a very fast burning powder. Hunting is only mentioned in passing. If you use a current built double rifle and shoot factory loads in it, you also don't need the book.