Rigby Double Rifle

[grand veneur]

I have a story about failure of old primers.

25 years ago, while I was on an elephant hunt, the PH tell me that a client, an older British hunter with his old double rifle and the old ammunition for it, also hunt elephants with him. When the time came, only the fourth cartridge ignited and killed the elephant. Unfortunately, you don't always have the time for something like that.

 

[brian.perlis]

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with me and im still excited to read every post. What a great find and a fun thread. I'm genuinely excited for Nick and what he has.

 

[Pondoro]

I have a story about failure of old primers.

25 years ago, while I was on an elephant hunt, the PH tell me that a client, an older British hunter with his old double rifle and the old ammunition for it, also hunt elephants with him. When the time came, only the fourth cartridge ignited and killed the elephant. Unfortunately, you don't always have the time for something like that.

Yes..I read a story of two hunters, father and son, who hunted elephant in Zimbabwe.. Both had vintage .475 no.2 double rifles and they used 50 year old Kynoch ammo...such folly.. But boy had they luck..the son took a 90 pounder..!

I would never hunt with that old Kynoch I mentioned....nice on the shooting range though..

You may be right..perhaps Kynoch loaded with Neonite..it is a fast burning ballistite..on par with cordite. Even faster neonite was used in british handguns.. That would ensure Pmax right after the chambers just like cordite.. Some double rifles had to be regulated for the new propellant, others not. I do not think mine was re-regulated though but cant be sure..

If you look at this table you see that Neonite 12 - Nobel is close to Vihtavuori N140/150. I use 90 grains of N150 with 500 grainers in my .470 Krieghoff with good results..no filler. N150 is very close to Reloader 15, a powder Federal used in its .470 ammunition earlier..

https://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading/components/powderburnrate.html

 

[PARA45]

@rookhawk, you are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for sharing with us some of your knowledge of doubles. Not that I will ever own a double, but I am enjoying learning from posts like this one. Thank you!

 

[yhc]

Regarding the book in question I read here on the forum yesterday that a 4th edition would soon be available.

Yes, Buffalo Arms anticipates the 4th edition will become available in about 3 months. You can call them and place it on a backorder now for $65.

 

[Nick1982]

Thanks for the reply's.

Enclosed some more foto's.

Does anyone have an idea about the number stamps on the stock?

 

[rookhawk]

The book is primarily a manual for reloaders and shooters of old double rifles, Britisch made but not only. This shooters are in many cases dependent on reloading in order to find an accurate load for their rifle. The factory loads do try to copy the old original loads, but this is very theoretical. The burning process in the chamber and the barrels is no longer the same. Cordite was a very fast burning powder. Hunting is only mentioned in passing. If you use a current built double rifle and shoot factory loads in it, you also don't need the book.

I’ve had a few modern double rifles. If it’s ten years old, you need to hand load too. If you can use faster powders, you can reduce the recoil dramatically.

Other than brand new and with a lifetime supply of new ammo made to shoot in the gun, you’re going to have to build hand loads.

 

[grand veneur]

I’ve had a few modern double rifles. If it’s ten years old, you need to hand load too. If you can use faster powders, you can reduce the recoil dramatically.

Other than brand new and with a lifetime supply of new ammo made to shoot in the gun, you’re going to have to build hand loads.

I think that the majority of double rifle owners do not reload their cartridges, but I don't know how that work in practice, especially for the owners of used rifles. The best solution is certainly to have a lifetime supply of the ammunition with which the weapon was regulated, but a problem remain by old rifles.

As far as recoil is concerned, I did not notice on my two big bore double rifles too much of a difference between the cartridges loaded with fast burning and those loaded with slow burning powder. I also tend to use fast burning powders, despite the need for fillers, but the controversial discussions have always given me cause to think about.

 

[Sideshow]

Stock marks….might have been property of a national parks. But usually you would have had a parks stamp emblem. A double let alone a Rigby would be very swish for a parks ranger though.
Unless it was used for the arctic by a navy.

 

[rookhawk]

I think that the majority of double rifle owners do not reload their cartridges, but I don't know how that work in practice, especially for the owners of used rifles. The best solution is certainly to have a lifetime supply of the ammunition with which the weapon was regulated, but a problem remain by old rifles.

As far as recoil is concerned, I did not notice on my two big bore double rifles too much of a difference between the cartridges loaded with fast burning and those loaded with slow burning powder. I also tend to use fast burning powders, despite the need for fillers, but the controversial discussions have always given me cause to think about.

The problem we have with factory loads is twofold:

-For the vintage gun, the original load is extinct. You have to concoct a load using modern powders and reasonable pressures that duplicates it.

-For the modern gun that is say ten years old, the gun could have been built and regulated for the buyer's pet load, for wolfgang romey, for no less than 3 powders and 8 bullets from Federal, for Hirtenberger, for RWS, for Norma, for Hornady, or for Kynoch. It's a complete pig-in-a-poke if anything will work, and then its a double luck if the current lot of the correct ammo shoots at all like the prior formulation when the gun was new.

If you bought a brand new gun today and it was loaded for Hornady DGX and DGS, you stand a good chance that the ammo at the gun shop is going to shot relatively well, but you'd be a fool not to drop $5000 on several cases of it before they "improve" their formulations like Federal did several times.

When handloading for a modern gun, same powder, primer, wad stuffing, and bullet grain weight, and even bullet type (monometal, traditional solid, or soft), you can get wildly different results. These vary from totally unshootable to mediocre to near perfection. If your goal is an elephant at 40 paces, perhaps 20% of the bullet/powder combinations will work and perhaps one of the 5-7 factory loads would suffice, but the accuracy is rather poor.

All roads eventually lead to a handload, especially if you want 100 yard or even 200 yard accuracy. You just can't buy enough of the correct ammo before it becomes obsolete to have enough of your load to last you the rest of your life. At least with a handload, you can hand the recipe to a loader every 5-10 years and replenish your known-good supplies.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

I don’t know about the rest of you but this thread has been appointment reading for me every evening since it started.

 

[rookhawk]

I have a story about failure of old primers.

25 years ago, while I was on an elephant hunt, the PH tell me that a client, an older British hunter with his old double rifle and the old ammunition for it, also hunt elephants with him. When the time came, only the fourth cartridge ignited and killed the elephant. Unfortunately, you don't always have the time for something like that.

@grand veneur I once had a lovely 318wr take down that included a box or two of century old Kynoch (berdan primed) cartridges. The gun was deemed worthless because it would rupture modern cases every time. I contacted a true expert and he had sage advice. His instructions were to never throw away old Kynoch cartridges. He asked me to shoot them. They shot beautiful, 2" groups! No case head separation! He then told me "a-ha and eureka!, SAAMI and CIP are full of sh&t!". Don't rely on blueprints from the proof houses that have been bastardized and converted back and forth from imperial to metric, always shoot an old kynoch and see what you get for results.

What it proved is that the gun was perfect, the CIP/SAAMI specs were not. I then learned how to take the firing pin out of the gun, find out when I was bumping the neck upon closure, barely resized new brass with a neck bump, and was able to load sub-moa modern loadings correctly.

I would not have been able to decipher any of this without 100 year old "Trash ammo" that served as a shootable diagnostic. The original chambers were not to CIP or SAAMI spec, but they were absolutely to Kynoch specs circa 1905! I just needed to load to those specs and headspace off the neck and shoulder to get a completely reliable, totally accurate modern load.

I was shocked 100 year old ammo worked, the expert was not at all surprised. He stated the old ammo was very well made and is a critical diagnostic for the vintage rifle.

 

[cajunchefray]

@grand veneur I once had a lovely 318wr take down that included a box or two of century old Kynoch (berdan primed) cartridges. The gun was deemed worthless because it would rupture modern cases every time. I contacted a true expert and he had sage advice. His instructions were to never throw away old Kynoch cartridges. He asked me to shoot them. They shot beautiful, 2" groups! No case head separation! He then told me "a-ha and eureka!, SAAMI and CIP are full of sh&t!". Don't rely on blueprints from the proof houses that have been bastardized and converted back and forth from imperial to metric, always shoot an old kynoch and see what you get for results.

What it proved is that the gun was perfect, the CIP/SAAMI specs were not. I then learned how to take the firing pin out of the gun, find out when I was bumping the neck upon closure, barely resized new brass with a neck bump, and was able to load sub-moa modern loadings correctly.

I would not have been able to decipher any of this without 100 year old "Trash ammo" that served as a shootable diagnostic. The original chambers were not to CIP or SAAMI spec, but they were absolutely to Kynoch specs circa 1905! I just needed to load to those specs and headspace off the neck and shoulder to get a completely reliable, totally accurate modern load.

I was shocked 100 year old ammo worked, the expert was not at all surprised. He stated the old ammo was very well made and is a critical diagnostic for the vintage rifle.

Bravo @rookhawk for establishing a proper baseline of data from the original designs and Kynoch Cordite loads. IMR3031 makes sense when considering the time/pressure curve. Fillers make it work. Grahame Wright explained this well.

Sir, I hope you write a book about your experience and knowledge of the great old British and European arms. I will be on the list to purchase. Such knowledge must be preserved.

 

[coreydb]

Without a doubt get it evaluated by a Rigby certified gunsmith, or a 'smith renowned for these types of guns. Rigby is a high premium rifle.