SAFETY WARNING!

[Kano]

Spoonie, you were lucky...

How did the Carcano bolt fly away? Did the receiver ring split?

I have seen Mauser actions jammed solid due to firing the wrong caliber, and magazine wells/stocks blown due to case rupture, as well as cocking piece/bolt shroud and various bits blown to pieces at the back of the action on various rifles with front locking lugs, but have never seen or heard about a bolt actually flying backwards straight in the face of the shooter in these actions.

 

[Velo Dog]

Spoonie, you were lucky...

How did the Carcano bolt fly away? Did the receiver ring split?

I have seen Mauser actions jammed solid due to firing the wrong caliber, and magazine wells/stocks blown due to case rupture, as well as cocking piece/bolt shroud and various bits blown to pieces at the back of the action on various rifles with front locking lugs, but have never seen or heard about a bolt actually flying backwards straight in the face of the shooter in these actions.

+1.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Spoonie, you were lucky...

How did the Carcano bolt fly away? Did the receiver ring split?

I have seen Mauser actions jammed solid due to firing the wrong caliber, and magazine wells/stocks blown due to case rupture, as well as cocking piece/bolt shroud and various bits blown to pieces at the back of the action on various rifles with front locking lugs, but have never seen or heard about a bolt actually flying backwards straight in the face of the shooter in these actions.

+2.

 

[spoonieduck]

Velo, The bolt didn't leave the rifle. At the moment it went off, my vision was zero and all I saw was yellow. I thought the bolt had shot through into my head. It didn't, at least not in the sense that it actually left the rifle. I remember putting my hand to my head, afraid the bolt would be sticking in it. It wasn't there, just blood. I was by myself and don't remember exactly what I did next. Blind, I stumbled into my house, got a towel and must have washed the blood off my face and bound up my face and head. My vision returned and I reckoned I needed to get to an emergency room. I wrapped the towel around my head and drove my pickup to the nearest ER where they x-rayed me and then attempted to unsuccessfully dissect out metal. I signed out "against medical advice." My son told me later that when they returned I wasn't back yet but they found blood in the yard and all through the house.

Anyway, I have the rifle in my lap as I write. The bolt was thrown back against the receiver ring, where it "jammed". I have no doubt that the receiver ring is the only reason I'm here today. If I can recall rightly, the rear of the bolt was protruded backward in such a way that it may have touched, or even banged, my face but most of the damage was done by frags from the shell case and the primer, itself. The rifle stock is split just behind the receiver and the split is completely through the stock and the split in the wood extends to within 5 inches of the metal butt plate. There is a large split in the fore end that extends from the cartridge plate to the ring for the rifle sling--12-13 inches. I no longer have the bolt [as a matter of fact I threw the bolts of all five of my Carcanos away, fearing that there might have been a bolt mix up]. The bolt, however, was jammed back in such a way as to expose about 3/4s inch of the breech chamber. The bolt was totally frozen.

Later, I wanted to get a look at the cartridge case still in the rifle, so I put the rifle down muzzle first and pounded the bolt with a hammer. It took some doing but I finally got it to move. The rear half of the cartridge case was missing. If I can recall rightly--and it's been awhile--much of the front portion of the cartridge case was still jammed [expanded outwards and fused] to the chamber. I fished out as much as possible to get a look at it. I also wanted to know what made my head x-ray look so interesting. Right now, maybe for the first time, I'm looking down the muzzle. It looks like the chamber isn't completely clean. I may not have got everything out.

Medically, something interesting. Initially, the primer--or a piece of metal big enough to be the primer--was embedded in the rear of my right maxillary sinus. For unrelated reasons, I had a skull x-ray a couple of years ago. As usual the radiologist freaked out....but....the right maxillary metal was no longer present. I very much doubt it dissolved. More likely it worked itself through to the nasal cavity where it was sneezed out. I never realized that I sneezed it out, though.

So Jack Kennedy and I have something in common. We were both shot in the head with a cheap Italian rifle.

 

[Kano]

Spoonie,

Thanks for the details! Again, you were lucky...

Even though the Carcano is not really a stellar rifle, the bolt still did not turn into a rear-facing RPG like it does on more "modern" contraptions...

Now, an interesting thing: flaws and shortcomings of Mausers, Remingtons, Sako, Sabatti, and whatever other rifle and/or rifle design can be discussed ad nauseam on any forum. But if one dares questioning the design of the R93, in many forums he gets immediate retribution in the guise of posts blocked or deleted (happened to me), or even account canceled (seen this happening to others).

Yet, as far as I'm aware, it is the only currently produced rifle design that consistently maims the shooter's face in case of accident, with injuries so severe that they result in permanent disability. If this is not ground for questioning the design itself, I don't know what is.

 

[Velo Dog]

Spoonie,

Thanks for the details! Again, you were lucky...

Even though the Carcano is not really a stellar rifle, the bolt still did not turn into a rear-facing RPG like it does on more "modern" contraptions...

Now, an interesting thing: flaws and shortcomings of Mausers, Remingtons, Sako, Sabatti, and whatever other rifle and/or rifle design can be discussed ad nauseam on any forum. But if one dares questioning the design of the R93, in many forums he gets immediate retribution in the guise of posts blocked or deleted (happened to me), or even account canceled (seen this happening to others).

Yet, as far as I'm aware, it is the only currently produced rifle design that consistently maims the shooter's face in case of accident, with injuries so severe that they result in permanent disability. If this is not ground for questioning the design itself, I don't know what is.

+1 with Kano here, in that I cannot imagine why anyone would risk their face/eyesight, presumably just so they can fire repeat shots maybe a fraction of a second faster than they could with a turn bolt design.
Re: your experiences with people who block or delete another person's opinion, not to mention cancel another person's forum account over a difference of opinion: I'd say they need to step back and take a deep breath, or perhaps a long vacation to some quite place, with plenty of shade trees and people playing badminton on a beautiful green lawn, etc.
I too was blocked from a forum, by its founder, about 6 years ago (for quoting a PH who has seen several Barnes bullets fail to expand, only inflicting a military FMJ type wound), how childish is that?.

Re: The R93 rifle mechanism design; Sometimes people become overly defensive, in regards to various topics, including the Remington Model 700 vs Mauser 98 types and mono-metal bullets vs the dreaded cup & core bullets, BUT none of those have been known to slam a steel bar into the owner's face.
Anything with that many small moving parts is mathematically more likely to fail than something like the Model 98 Mauser, with its fewer, larger, and more robust parts (there is quite a huge difference in the esthetics as well, IMO).

 

[Velo Dog]

Velo, The bolt didn't leave the rifle. At the moment it went off, my vision was zero and all I saw was yellow. I thought the bolt had shot through into my head. It didn't, at least not in the sense that it actually left the rifle. I remember putting my hand to my head, afraid the bolt would be sticking in it. It wasn't there, just blood. I was by myself and don't remember exactly what I did next. Blind, I stumbled into my house, got a towel and must have washed the blood off my face and bound up my face and head. My vision returned and I reckoned I needed to get to an emergency room. I wrapped the towel around my head and drove my pickup to the nearest ER where they x-rayed me and then attempted to unsuccessfully dissect out metal. I signed out "against medical advice." My son told me later that when they returned I wasn't back yet but they found blood in the yard and all through the house.

Anyway, I have the rifle in my lap as I write. The bolt was thrown back against the receiver ring, where it "jammed". I have no doubt that the receiver ring is the only reason I'm here today. If I can recall rightly, the rear of the bolt was protruded backward in such a way that it may have touched, or even banged, my face but most of the damage was done by frags from the shell case and the primer, itself. The rifle stock is split just behind the receiver and the split is completely through the stock and the split in the wood extends to within 5 inches of the metal butt plate. There is a large split in the fore end that extends from the cartridge plate to the ring for the rifle sling--12-13 inches. I no longer have the bolt [as a matter of fact I threw the bolts of all five of my Carcanos away, fearing that there might have been a bolt mix up]. The bolt, however, was jammed back in such a way as to expose about 3/4s inch of the breech chamber. The bolt was totally frozen.

Later, I wanted to get a look at the cartridge case still in the rifle, so I put the rifle down muzzle first and pounded the bolt with a hammer. It took some doing but I finally got it to move. The rear half of the cartridge case was missing. If I can recall rightly--and it's been awhile--much of the front portion of the cartridge case was still jammed [expanded outwards and fused] to the chamber. I fished out as much as possible to get a look at it. I also wanted to know what made my head x-ray look so interesting. Right now, maybe for the first time, I'm looking down the muzzle. It looks like the chamber isn't completely clean. I may not have got everything out.

Medically, something interesting. Initially, the primer--or a piece of metal big enough to be the primer--was embedded in the rear of my right maxillary sinus. For unrelated reasons, I had a skull x-ray a couple of years ago. As usual the radiologist freaked out....but....the right maxillary metal was no longer present. I very much doubt it dissolved. More likely it worked itself through to the nasal cavity where it was sneezed out. I never realized that I sneezed it out, though.

So Jack Kennedy and I have something in common. We were both shot in the head with a cheap Italian rifle.

Some Gunsmiths will say that Carcanos are best left unfired, in collections and displays.
And I will say that you're fortunate to not have been injured any worse than you were.

 

[spoonieduck]

+1 with Kano here, in that I cannot imagine why anyone would risk their face/eyesight, presumably just so they can fire repeat shots maybe a fraction of a second faster than they could with a turn bolt design.
Re: your experiences with people who block or delete another person's opinion, not to mention cancel another person's forum account over a difference of opinion: I'd say they need to step back and take a deep breath, or perhaps a long vacation to some quite place, with plenty of shade trees and people playing badminton on a beautiful green lawn, etc.
I too was blocked from a forum, by its founder, about 6 years ago (for quoting a PH who has seen several Barnes bullets fail to expand, only inflicting a military FMJ type wound), how childish is that?.

Re: The R93 rifle mechanism design; Sometimes people become overly defensive, in regards to various topics, including the Remington Model 700 vs Mauser 98 types and mono-metal bullets vs the dreaded cup & core bullets, BUT none of those have been known to slam a steel bar into the owner's face.
Anything with that many small moving parts is mathematically more likely to fail than something like the Model 98 Mauser, with its fewer, larger, and more robust parts (there is quite a huge difference in the esthetics as well, IMO).

You mentioned the Barnes bullet. I've successfully hunted for many years using the excellent Nosler Partition [180 grain] in my 300 Winchester. My only complaint is that the Partition doesn't usually exit medium-sized like kudu and elk and is usually mushroomed up under the far side skin. Anyway, my son has kept bugging me about using Barnes triple shock bullets. He shoots a .270 with a 130 grain Barnes TSX. Twice I've recovered his bullet under the far side skin of big bucks. No weight loss. Then again, this is basically the same performance as the Nosler Partition.

My son and I went to South Africa back in September. I loaded Barnes TSX in .338 [225 grain] and Weatherby .416 [400 grain]. We recovered no bullets shot with the .338--through and through shots--so I can't testify whether or not they expanded although the exits were all about double the entrances. A giraffe, however, was hit by the .416 400 grain bullet. The bullet broke bones and, after traveling obliquely through an estimated 4 feet of muscle, bone, lung, liver and rumenal contents, was mushroomed up under the far side skin. The animal stood for 30 seconds and dropped. Virtually 100% bullet weight retention.

Well, I've been working up loads for a used 300 Savage. I bought the thing and discovered to my dismay that store-bought ammo [shooting 150 grain something-or-others advertised at 2,650 fps] were popping the primers.....oh, just a little bit. No good. I decided to load new Savage cartridges with 130 grain Barnes TSX but kept the powder on the low side [41 grains of IMR 4064] to see if the combination of a lighter bullet and a low load might keep the primer where it belongs. I also wore heavy-duty protection glasses and a heavy face mask when I fired the new load. No problem. No over pressure and no popped primers. But, a lower powder load means a lower velocity maybe 2,550 fps. I read somewhere that low velocities with the 300 Savage rifle, especially with a light bullet, might pose a problem with killing deer. I also read that low velocities with the Barnes TSX might be inadequate to cause expansion.

Last night, I was sitting with the Savage rifle in one of my deer blinds hoping I could test the smaller, low velocity Barns bullet on a big hog. I was lucky. A bunch of 20-30 lb pigs came out first but then a couple of big sows showed up. The shot was at 125 yards on a trotting pig of 200 lbs. The hog went down with the shot behind a Nopal cactus. Plenty of squealing and kicking around in a circle. I thought I could see a flapping ear through the cactus and took a second shot. The noise stopped. I've now had an opportunity to examine the carcass and skin. The first bullet took it behind the shoulders, breaking ribs on both sides, but zipped clean through leaving an exit hole twice the size of the entrance. My second bullet hit the pig in the middle of the upper back, completely smashing the thoracic spine. I just found the bullet just under the skin of the underpart of the neck. The bullet is perfectly mushroomed--four petals folded back. I just weighed it and it lost no weight whatsoever. I don't think I need to worry about shooting one of my big bucks with it.

 

[Velo Dog]

You mentioned the Barnes bullet. I've successfully hunted for many years using the excellent Nosler Partition [180 grain] in my 300 Winchester. My only complaint is that the Partition doesn't usually exit medium-sized like kudu and elk and is usually mushroomed up under the far side skin. Anyway, my son has kept bugging me about using Barnes triple shock bullets. He shoots a .270 with a 130 grain Barnes TSX. Twice I've recovered his bullet under the far side skin of big bucks. No weight loss. Then again, this is basically the same performance as the Nosler Partition.

My son and I went to South Africa back in September. I loaded Barnes TSX in .338 [225 grain] and Weatherby .416 [400 grain]. We recovered no bullets shot with the .338--through and through shots--so I can't testify whether or not they expanded although the exits were all about double the entrances. A giraffe, however, was hit by the .416 400 grain bullet. The bullet broke bones and, after traveling obliquely through an estimated 4 feet of muscle, bone, lung, liver and rumenal contents, was mushroomed up under the far side skin. The animal stood for 30 seconds and dropped. Virtually 100% bullet weight retention.

Well, I've been working up loads for a used 300 Savage. I bought the thing and discovered to my dismay that store-bought ammo [shooting 150 grain something-or-others advertised at 2,650 fps] were popping the primers.....oh, just a little bit. No good. I decided to load new Savage cartridges with 130 grain Barnes TSX but kept the powder on the low side [41 grains of IMR 4064] to see if the combination of a lighter bullet and a low load might keep the primer where it belongs. I also wore heavy-duty protection glasses and a heavy face mask when I fired the new load. No problem. No over pressure and no popped primers. But, a lower powder load means a lower velocity maybe 2,550 fps. I read somewhere that low velocities with the 300 Savage rifle, especially with a light bullet, might pose a problem with killing deer. I also read that low velocities with the Barnes TSX might be inadequate to cause expansion.

Last night, I was sitting with the Savage rifle in one of my deer blinds hoping I could test the smaller, low velocity Barns bullet on a big hog. I was lucky. A bunch of 20-30 lb pigs came out first but then a couple of big sows showed up. The shot was at 125 yards on a trotting pig of 200 lbs. The hog went down with the shot behind a Nopal cactus. Plenty of squealing and kicking around in a circle. I thought I could see a flapping ear through the cactus and took a second shot. The noise stopped. I've now had an opportunity to examine the carcass and skin. The first bullet took it behind the shoulders, breaking ribs on both sides, but zipped clean through leaving an exit hole twice the size of the entrance. My second bullet hit the pig in the middle of the upper back, completely smashing the thoracic spine. I just found the bullet just under the skin of the underpart of the neck. The bullet is perfectly mushroomed--four petals folded back. I just weighed it and it lost no weight whatsoever. I don't think I need to worry about shooting one of my big bucks with it.

Hi Spoonieduck,

I will guess that the .416 is a good giraffe cartridge.

I wonder if some moron has gouged out your .300 Savage chamber to one of these silly "improved" chamber versions and now needs to be checked for headspace by a Proper Gunsmith.

Regarding the .338 Winchester, I like it very much but sold mine to get a .375 because of the .300 gr bullet capability.

Also, I used to like the .270 Winchester / 130 gr bullet and have shot many deer and caribou with it but sold my last one many years ago when I figured out that anything I could hit with a 130 gr .270, I also could hit with my .30-06, 150 gr.

Regarding Barnes mono-metal bullets, I have only seen one animal shot with same and I am reluctant to conclude too much from that (not even sure if that's a bullet available / made today(?) - the original X-Bullet).

Let us just say that I have yet to experience any failure to expand with heavy/round nose bullets (heck, they're already half expanded before they leave the rifle).

I can see that you're are a high velocity / Barnes bullet fan and far be it from me to put much effort into to converting you over to my old fashioned ways so, I will clam up about it.

Likewise, nobody will likely convert me to your way either, unless I lost faith in the bullets I have used well all my life (I'm 61 and have hand loaded / hunted since age 16).

But the key to their/my success (besides putting them in the right place of course) is that I always "use enough gun" and I use high sectional / heavy for caliber / blunt shaped ones (220 gr .30 and 300 gr .375, etc., etc).

I recon that if I ever decided to shoot an elk with a .243 or something like that, then a TTSX or similar bullet would be in order.

However, I just cannot imagine what sort of mushrooms I could have ingested, that would inspire me to hunt elk with a .243 instead of say, the .300 H&H for one example.

Kind regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[Wheels]

So Jack Kennedy and I have something in common. We were both shot in the head with a cheap Italian rifle.

A strange thing to have in common.....glad things turned out better for you than for JFK.

 

[Kano]

Here is another example of rifle blown up. It's a .338 Lapua, in Australia. The shooter forgot the cleaning rod in the barrel and everything went Booom!

Now, look at the images: the rifle completely blew apart, the chamber blew up, barrel and action separated, stock was blown out. Yet, the shooter only sustained minor injuries.

The bolt did not fly back in his face. The accident is definitely not imputable to the rifle, and evidently all pressure parameters went through the roof, but I repeat: the bolt did not fly back in the shooter's face.

Blaser rifles maim shooters, but the company always blames the shooter, not the design.

If you can think, think.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

I never liked Blaser rifles.
Witold

 

[JimP]

How in the world could you forget a cleaning rod in a rifles barrel?

On the Barnes bullets, I have see where hunters presume after seeing the exit holes in game that it didn't mushroom very much. But even on a perfect mushroom with one of their bullets it doesn't double in size and a lot of the time the hide on the off side will stretch a little since there is no resistance on the off side....so a smaller exit hole.

While all of my hunting has been limited to North America I have taken numerious deer, elk, antelope, and a bear with the Barnes bullets out of either a .340 Weatherby or 7mm Rem Mag and have never recovered a bullet and all except for a deer and one elk have been one shot kills. The one elk took two bullets before he dropped, either shot would of killed him but if they are still standing you keep shooting, the same with the mule deer.

 

[pmwojtek]

Any info about accidents with R8. I bought R8 with recoil transverse cross - bar not attached properly. I lost it - got new one. Yesterday I broke pin, found many people with the same problems. First time got scared about rumors regarding facial trauma due to hit from bolt.
Anyone knows about bolt failure with R8?? Not R93!

 

[Kano]

What pin did you break?

The R8 design does not have the same inherent flaw as the R93: once the "fingers" are locked, there is a steel sleeve below them that prevents them from retracting.

The only way I can see for the R8 bolt to blow back, besides a catastrophic failure of the locking recess in the barrel, would be for the firing pin to strike the primer before the bolt is locked.

I'm not aware of any "bolt in the face" accident with the R8. However, I've read about instances of premature and unintentional firing, i.e. upon closing the bolt. I've not investigated this issue, which seems to affect the R93 as well.

 

[pmwojtek]

Firing pin. I shoot ca. 60 rounds 3006 and suddenly no discharge - pin break.

I know about changing the fingers profile and steel sleeve aroud bolt. Looks much better.

I was hunting many years in Greenland - dire conditions. Had Mosberg, few Brno's, Tikka.
Never ever problems with Brno. Blaser is simply too complicated and delicate. Unfortunately I got 3 barrels! also one in reasonable caliber ( 375), therefore I am a bit scare.

 

[sierraone]

Dear PaulT,

What an important notice to the hunting world!
Thank you for it.

Fortunately for me specifically, (and evidently sestoppleman as well), I've always thought the whole line of straight-pull rifles (from the WW-1 Canadian Ross, Swiss K-31, Steyer 8x56, etc., through today's selection of Blazers, Merkels and similar straight pullers) are uglier than a pack of pit bulls with herpes.

On that alone, I have never been tempted to even pick one up to examine, much less buy one.

Furthermore, I stand with Norwegianwoods on the notion that there's no real point in being able to jack another round into the chamber, a fraction of a second faster than with a Mauser type turnbolt.

I submit that with so many small/tedious moving parts, your mathematical odds of failure go up accordingly.
(Just ask the men who've been nearly killed by such contraptions.)

Plenty of manufacturer's marketing gimmicks on the market these days.

Don't be fooled by their glowing claims that: If you buy our new product, you will enjoy success.

Truth of the matter is: If we buy their newest inventions before the bugs are worked out, THEY will enjoy success for sure.

By 1898, all Mauser bugs were thoroughly worked out, get yerself a 98 Mauser or, a reasonable variation of same (Pre-64 type Model 70, CZ 550 magnum, etc).

Regards,
Velo Dog.

Agreed, ugly as sin!!!

 

[sierraone]

Assuming a Blaser rifle is operating correctly, what is the advantage of a straight pull bolt over a Mauser type bolt action?

 

[pmwojtek]

Assuming a Blaser rifle is operating correctly, what is the advantage of a straight pull bolt over a Mauser type bolt action?

I am not engeener.

For me hunter - Mauser is simpler. In low temp., humid conditions operates more reliable - opinions also from professional hunters from Greenland.
Claw extractor - sometimes very important.
Bolt with small grooves looks vulnerable for sand and ice.
Locking system looks more reliable in Mauser - solid like a rock.
More than 100 y. tradition and some improvments. I and II War primary weapon.
German says - Mauser er idioten sicher - idiots proof.
In Blaser I see so many small parts.

I bought Blase because travel a lot and need something portable, popular.
Now I am sure that I will buy backup rifle from Brno, Ruger, Winchester.
Top quality Mauser actions are too expensive for traveling.

You see my foto - I shoot that musox after falling to salt water with my Brno 375 HH. Of course I check barrel. Next I hunt several days without any cleaning - superb, reliable stuff.

 

[Velo Dog]

Assuming a Blaser rifle is operating correctly, what is the advantage of a straight pull bolt over a Mauser type bolt action?

Don't hold your breath waiting for any reality based reason why a straight pull action is more advantageous than a Model 98 Mauser action, or reasonable copy of same (Brno ZKK / 602, CZ 550, Mod-70, etc.)