Slug hunting Plains Game and Dangerous Game?

[ChrisG]

I just sold all my shotgun stuff. It was fun to play with but, at the end of the day, even a moderate rifle cartridge outclasses it. I was shooting a 775 grain hard cast solid wadcutter at around 1,150 fps from a 19" single shot shotgun with a rifled barrel. I killed a coyote with it and punched some paper...

At the end of the day, even the best slug gun is, at its finest, a moderately accurate, short range rifle the bleeds velocity like a handgun round and penetrates like a lightweight 30 cal bullet. Even my .73", 775 grain bullets likely would have only penetrated about like a .30-06 with 180s. Maybe less so. And the '06 would drop less at 400 yards than a slug gun does at 150.

It was a fun gun and I loaded up some RMC brass shotshells with those slugs, but it went down the road because it doesn't have any attributes other than sheer bore size to recommend it.

 

[reineke]

I envy rookhawk for his cool reply-to me it is unconceivable why somebody with
this kind of mindset should use Africa Hunting at all. We have got enough guys who
know it all, but apparently have never hunted in Africa like Vinootz.

 

[Red Leg]

Maybe you should have just saved all of your money and bought a double use gun like my Browning Gold 12 ga. which puts Winchester, Remington and Federal 328-385 gr. (man slugs ) sabots into anywhere from 1" to 3" at 100 yds? The Barnes, Partition and Core Lokt slugs loaded into these offerings, or at least were, are anything but soft. I have some spent slugs if anyone wants to see them. They are definitely designed for elk and African game and even the soft lead BRI slugs pass completely through a 200 lb whitetail and leave plenty of destruction behind. It's also the nicest slug gun you'll ever shoot. No sore shoulder after, no feeding problems and plenty of eye relief with the 4x shotgun scope. Take your deer, swap barrels and go duck hunting.

The boxes claim they leave the barrel at 1900 FPS. I'm not sure what length their test barrel is but my Browning wears a 24". To your point, the downside is that they are extremely hard to come by these days. Of what I have shot in the past I believe only the BRI and Partition Gold are still available, occasionally like all ammo these days, unless you find someone with a stash.

Like I said, if given the option I would take my gun with confidence. I've never shot a bolt slug gun but honestly I wouldn't expect much as far as feeding reliability from a few hundred dollar bolt shotgun anyways, I was merely talking from a "what is legal in Africa" stand point. Years ago I did covet a nice single shot 12 ga slug gun but then I moved out of Illinois and started hunting archery more and stopped thinking about it. To me, it would make much more sense than a bolt gun since as you mentioned it's like trying to feed a brick into a pipe.

Of course if you wanted to help me out I would love to hunt Africa or anywhere with a Paradox gun. I'm much younger than you but I believe our tastes align and we could pick out a nice one for me. Or we could build that fully rifled falling block 12 ga. I once dreamed of.

Let me know.

I actually own a paradox. Mine is a William Evans built just before the First World War. Ross Seyfried worked up the loads for it, and it has been to Africa where it rolled two warthog for leopard bait and created a meaningful pile of sand grouse at a waterhole in Namibia one afternoon. It shoots a LxR/LxR under three-inches at one-hundred yards. I love it. It actually does everything you claim your Browning Gold will do and a bit more with a load of sixes from the same barrels for feathered game. But, it would be a silly thing to take as a primary firearm for a first plains game safari. Though not quite as silly as a Browning Gold.

I always find it amusing that the most certain and argumentative people on our site seem to be those with the most limited experience with the subject. You for instance admit you are young and you don't shoot your gun very much. You obviously have never seen an antelope or any other game animal in their natural environment on the African continent, and yet you just know you have it all figured out.

I would suggest you actually spend a little while pursuing African game in Africa, before concluding too confidently what would constitute the correct firearm for that sort of hunting. Otherwise, when you try to mock someone like @rookhawk, you merely appear juvenile.

 

[C.W. Richter]

'May have been mentioned above, but DG has been downed with .20 ga sabots and slugs (there are DVDs featuring same.) Although the mag 20 ga loads are ballistically the same (V and E) as the 12 ga, the smaller frontal area promotes better penetration. One guy called his double-bbl shotgun his "poor man's double (rifle)." Would I hunt DG with a shotgun? No. No, I wouldn't! (for all the aforementioned reasons. I'll take 6,000 ft-lbs of E for $500, Alex (double that of a shotgun.)

 

[revturbo9967]

Not that I can add much to this derailed mess, but the Savage 220 is a wonderful bolt slug gun. I have shot mine out to 200 yards with Remington accutips and had 4 inch groups. I haven't killed anything with those yet so we will hopefully see next deer season. I did shoot a deer in November with 275gr Federal trophy copper and they performed flawlessly. Hard forward quartering at 75 yards and the slug broke both shoulders.


All that said, Africa is the last place I would bring a slug gun, for many of the same reasons mentioned in this thread.

 

[Red Leg]

'May have been mentioned above, but DG has been downed with .20 ga sabots and slugs (there are DVDs featuring same.) Although the mag 20 ga loads are ballistically the same (V and E) as the 12 ga, the smaller frontal area promotes better penetration. One guy called his double-bbl shotgun his "poor man's double (rifle)." Would I hunt DG with a shotgun? No. No, I wouldn't! (for all the aforementioned reasons. I'll take 6,000 ft-lbs of E for $500, Alex (double that of a shotgun.)

That is true. My friend Tony Makris has taken buffalo with both his 12 and 20 bore Paradox guns. However, and I think it is a pretty big however, Ross Seyfried hand-turned the solid brass bullets used in the 20 and personally created and poured the alloy in the molds he designed for the 12. He then personally worked up the regulated loads. That is a bit different scenario than some deer hunter grabbing his trusty slug chunker, a box of ACME power tips, and embarking on his first African safari.

 

[rookhawk]

Not that I can add much to this derailed mess, but the Savage 220 is a wonderful bolt slug gun. I have shot mine out to 200 yards with Remington accutips and had 4 inch groups. I haven't killed anything with those yet so we will hopefully see next deer season. I did shoot a deer in November with 275gr Federal trophy copper and they performed flawlessly. Hard forward quartering at 75 yards and the slug broke both shoulders.


All that said, Africa is the last place I would bring a slug gun, for many of the same reasons mentioned in this thread.

@revturbo9967

indeed, the savage 220F is the very best donor for a custom slug rifle build. They are pretty awful for fit, feed, and accuracy can be hit or miss out of the box. What did anyone expect for $500?

But that’s the best action for the job. I’ve sorted them out in almost every way possible but one. I still haven’t figured out an internal magazine and follower so I can eliminate the factory bottom metal.

The next one I build I intend to get a jeweling fixture and a good piece of walnut to attempt an internal feed rather than using pillar bedding and laminate stocks to overcome the untrustworthy magazine feed and barrel channel warpage.

 

[revturbo9967]

They are pretty awful for fit, feed, and accuracy can be hit or miss out of the box. What did anyone expect for $500?

You're absolutely right with fit and feed. Mine did need some deburring on the top of the action. I have not had any feed issues, but I have read of many who do.

 

[Red Leg]

@revturbo9967

indeed, the savage 220F is the very best donor for a custom slug rifle build. They are pretty awful for fit, feed, and accuracy can be hit or miss out of the box. What did anyone expect for $500?

But that’s the best action for the job. I’ve sorted them out in almost every way possible but one. I still haven’t figured out an internal magazine and follower so I can eliminate the factory bottom metal.

The next one I build I intend to get a jeweling fixture and a good piece of walnut to attempt an internal feed rather than using pillar bedding and laminate stocks to overcome the untrustworthy magazine feed and barrel channel warpage.

One I still own and used pretty extensively when living in Maryland while at the Pentagon, was the Browning A-Bolt slug gun. Mine has a synthetic stock. It is very accurate, it is easily scoped, and I have never had any feeding issues with it. I haven't fired it in over a decade. Always wondered why it struggled to gain any traction among the slug-hunting community.

 

[rookhawk]

One I still own and used pretty extensively when living in Maryland while at the Pentagon, was the Browning A-Bolt slug gun. Mine has a synthetic stock. It is very accurate, it is easily scoped, and I have never had any feeding issues with it. I haven't fired it in over a decade. Always wondered why it struggled to gain any traction among the slug-hunting community.

It had a latent defect or product liability issue. Browning recalled them from distro. Sold off some to collectors. Stopped manufacturing.

Can’t remember what the defect was exactly, but it was a defect I vaguely remember would be catastrophic to an average imbecile and would be a hazard I would never create. I’ll do some digging.

 

[IvW]

I often see posts that tell folks how they need certain minimums for dangerous game. These are laws but it does not mean
lesser calibers and velocities are not capable. I bet the people that jump all over that one were the same kids that were faggot tattle tales. Get real-lol. Let’s put it another way. If an African PH doesn’t let me shoot what I want, he won’t be getting a tip. I could care less what those stupid laws are. And I’m not afraid to give a buffalo less of a handicap. Too many pussies in this world today that fall right in line with what they are told by others. If I’m going to be a sheep than I rather it be by a buffalo that does the slaughtering to me. I’m going to try hog hunting with a knife too. Spears were used in the past, and dangerous game was killed. I mean really. Modern day hunters have a distinct advantage,and most of the time are not going to die on a hunt.

What an ignorent fool comment......

 

[CJW]

I always find it amusing that the most certain and argumentative people on our site seem to be those with the most limited experience with the subject. You for instance admit you are young and you don't shoot your gun very much. You obviously have never seen an antelope or any other game animal in their natural environment on the African continent, and yet you just know you have it all figured out.

I would suggest you actually spend a little while pursuing African game in Africa, before concluding too confidently what would constitute the correct firearm for that sort of hunting. Otherwise, when you try to mock someone like @rookhawk, you merely appear juvenile.

I hunted Namibia in September for ten days and killed 13 animals. All except two were one shot kills with an -06 and 180 gr Accubond's and only one really needed a second shot due to my poor shooting and a stiff crosswind, I spined the first wildebeest. 3 kudu, 2 blue wildebeest, 3 gemsbock, 3 warthogs, 1 springbok and a jackal. None of them seemed particularly tough if shot correctly, certainly no tougher than a whitetail.

Who is being the argumentative, judgemental and certain one?

Sorry if you were upset by anything I wrote. It was merely in a conversational perspective based on what I was told/responding to or arguing/rebutting against and maybe a little rib jabbing and smartassery. Nothing out of the tone I didn't think. The internet of course isn't a great place for judgung the tone or attitude of what is being said.

Nice gun BTW. I hope it does everything you want it to. You certainly have alot of very nice firearms.

I may have a test target from years ago at home and some spent slugs to show they are legitimate, in the right setting of course. A kudu or oryx at 100 yds is alot different than a giant eland. Just like any antelope is different with a bow from 20-60 yds.

 

[Red Leg]

I hunted Namibia in September for ten days and killed 13 animals. All except two were one shot kills with an -06 and 180 gr Accubond's and only one really needed a second shot due to my poor shooting and a stiff crosswind, I spined the first wildebeest. 3 kudu, 2 blue wildebeest, 3 gemsbock, 3 warthogs, 1 springbok and a jackal. None of them seemed particularly tough if shot correctly, certainly no tougher than a whitetail.

Who is being the argumentative, judgemental and certain one?

Sorry if you were upset by anything I wrote. It was merely in a conversational perspective based on what I was told/responding to or arguing/rebutting against and maybe a little rib jabbing and smartassery. Nothing out of the tone I didn't think. The internet of course isn't a great place for judgung the tone or attitude of what is being said.

Nice gun BTW. I hope it does everything you want it to. You certainly have alot of very nice firearms.

I may have a test target from years ago at home and some spent slugs to show they are legitimate, in the right setting of course. A kudu or oryx at 100 yds is alot different than a giant eland. Just like any antelope is different with a bow from 20-60 yds.

I apologize for not recognizing you had hunted Africa once before in my comments.

 

[rookhawk]

For any of the readers that are interested, many of the constructive comments in this thread come from a body of assumptions that have been confirmed by experiences and then later by scientific research.

If you‘d like a great primer on “what works”, the vintage book ”African Rifles & Cartridges” by John “Pondoro” Taylor is a classic. Leatherbound editions were made several times over the past hundred years that are really, really nice. You can pick one up second hand on www.Abebooks.com for around $25-$40 in a fancy binding if you do a search.

Pondoro explained from a vast trove of experiences observed and collected, what works and what does not work for African safaris. He doesn’t get enough credit where credit was due. His basic gist was anything over 40 cal that leaves a muzzle at 2100fps and hits an animal at 1900fps is going to work fabulously.

Where Taylor went wrong was he was relying on experience (correlation) rather than science (causation). His TKE formula is not perfect science. His understanding of penetration was excellent but his understanding of hydrostatic shock was not a known science back then.

It’s a great read every gentleman should have in his library and it would shed understanding on many of the 100-year plus proven cartridges that work so well on Safari.

 

[Sarg]

@rookhawk if you could remember the problem with the A Bolt please, I have a few other A Bolts & like them & have always been on the look out for a A Bolt Slugger, not cheap down here the Savage 220 is more affordable ?

I have used Shotguns all over in places where you couldn't bring or find a normal rifle of any type & it has done the job with crude sights fitted & RB added to the cartridge, I even use a Bow & I find the Shotgun & slugs/ball a LOT better to use lol !

But as every one has said why make it harder on your self & maybe the animal when a more suitable fire arm is available ?

I was hunting Brown Bear on my own in 7 feet tall thick Bamboo forest along a Salmon steam with a Bow, boy I would of loved a Shotgun & RB then !

 

[Red Leg]

It had a latent defect or product liability issue. Browning recalled them from distro. Sold off some to collectors. Stopped manufacturing.

Can’t remember what the defect was exactly, but it was a defect I vaguely remember would be catastrophic to an average imbecile and would be a hazard I would never create. I’ll do some digging.

Went through the Browning site. All sorts of recall notes dating back to the nineties but nothing on this one. ??

 

[revturbo9967]

For any of the readers that are interested, many of the constructive comments in this thread come from a body of assumptions that have been confirmed by experiences and then later by scientific research.

If you‘d like a great primer on “what works”, the vintage book ”African Rifles & Cartridges” by John “Pondoro” Taylor is a classic. Leatherbound editions were made several times over the past hundred years that are really, really nice. You can pick one up second hand on www.Abebooks.com for around $25-$40 in a fancy binding if you do a search.

Pondoro explained from a vast trove of experiences observed and collected, what works and what does not work for African safaris. He doesn’t get enough credit where credit was due. His basic gist was anything over 40 cal that leaves a muzzle at 2100fps and hits an animal at 1900fps is going to work fabulously.

Where Taylor went wrong was he was relying on experience (correlation) rather than science (causation). His TKE formula is not perfect science. His understanding of penetration was excellent but his understanding of hydrostatic shock was not a known science back then.

It’s a great read every gentleman should have in his library and it would shed understanding on many of the 100-year plus proven cartridges that work so well on Safari.

Thanks. Just ordered a copy

 

[CJW]

Found the first target up on a shelf. This is the only target I have around for this gun and it was the first time the slug barrel was used. Kind of a nostalgia thing to keep it. Even threw on the slug barrel. There were only two shots each just to figure out what worked as even back then they were $$$. When I moved to WI I used it one or two season's.

All three copper slugs weigh 323-324 grains and the BRI'S are 378 and 427. Obviously one Federal failed to open. The Remington's blew through the wet newspaper as did one Partition.

 

[ChrisG]

For any of the readers that are interested, many of the constructive comments in this thread come from a body of assumptions that have been confirmed by experiences and then later by scientific research.

If you‘d like a great primer on “what works”, the vintage book ”African Rifles & Cartridges” by John “Pondoro” Taylor is a classic. Leatherbound editions were made several times over the past hundred years that are really, really nice. You can pick one up second hand on www.Abebooks.com for around $25-$40 in a fancy binding if you do a search.

Pondoro explained from a vast trove of experiences observed and collected, what works and what does not work for African safaris. He doesn’t get enough credit where credit was due. His basic gist was anything over 40 cal that leaves a muzzle at 2100fps and hits an animal at 1900fps is going to work fabulously.

Where Taylor went wrong was he was relying on experience (correlation) rather than science (causation). His TKE formula is not perfect science. His understanding of penetration was excellent but his understanding of hydrostatic shock was not a known science back then.

It’s a great read every gentleman should have in his library and it would shed understanding on many of the 100-year plus proven cartridges that work so well on Safari.

+1 it also is a really fun read

 

[rookhawk]

Went through the Browning site. All sorts of recall notes dating back to the nineties but nothing on this one. ??

I read an article about them and it alleged a clandestine recall if I remember correctly. They pulled them back from distribution, angled to sell the remaining stock to collectors that wouldn’t be likely to encounter the defect. Stopped production.

When I searched today trying to find the details to link here, all I could find is complaints about some guns having a “sticky finish defect” which is definitely not what I remember reading.

With nothing to rely upon or source in an article, the “Vibe” I foggily remember was there was something wrong that could make the guns blow up in incompetent hands. E.g. 3” charge in 2.75” chamber. Whatever it was, my recollection is it was a ”lawyers liability concern” rather than a practical matter. I also believe that this topic came up regarding the Browning when I was chatting about custom “bore rifle” cartridges with the fellow that owns Tarhunt. We were talking about higher pressure shells in brass cases for improved accuracy and 90 mins into the conversation he made a passing comment about the a-bolt that went in one ear and out the other as I have built all my custom slug rifles on Savage 220f actions.

I’ll keep searching for something to reference. Whatever it was, use the weapon as intended and nothing is going to go wrong.