So Bye-Bye Miss American Pie

[uplander01]

The younger generation for the most part has no interest in traditional type rifles and equipment. They are tech material based buyers, and they don't have near the volume of guns that most of us do, they buy more what they need. Scopes have changed simply due to what this young generation wants, more military type stuff than anything.

In Alaska it is a supply and demand issue, I'm guessing there aren't a lot of up and comer guides, so fewer guides yet more people with money wanting to do it, why wouldn't they charge the absolute maximum that they can. The ultimate backlash for this and what is happening out west which is similar, the end of hunting. Once this 40-70 year old generation is gone, broke, or unwilling to pay the prices any longer, all of these guides are going to be out of a job. My guess is there is always going to be a slug of super wealthy international types to keep Africa going to some degree, unless Africa cuts its own throat and the same thing happens, which quite honestly is happening already to some degree. My recent experience has taught me that it cost 40-50k to do a 10 day, 2-buff hunt in a wild area in east Africa, modest airline seats, tips, fees, permits, etc. Seriously, this younger generation isn't even going to be able to afford to buy their own home much less spend 50k on a vacation.

 

[375Fox]

My first big North American hunt was a dall sheep and caribou in 2005 for $11,500 in Yukon that same hunt now would be minimum 3x the cost.
My first African safari was a plains game hunt in Namibia in 2002. Today’s cost is only maybe 30% more with that same outfitter.
I don’t like how costs have gone up in North America, but at the same time I prefer international hunting. There are some very good values for your dollar in Europe and Africa. I also think you get a better overall experience. It’s unfortunate how high North American prices are, but there are no shortage of hunting opportunities around the world.

 

[375Fox]

I can live with the black rifle craze because there are still alternatives, but the ballistic turrets on scopes I find very frustrating. Some scopes I understand, but I can’t understand on every scope. If I buy a 1-5 Leupold scope for DG I have absolutely no need for a CDS dial. It’s just an item to fail. It’s getting more difficult to find scopes without ballistic dials. I see Swarovski’s new line states with and without dials so hopefully that’s a positive step.

 

[C.W. Richter]

So bye, bye, Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry
And them good ol boys were drinking whiskey 'n rye
Singin' this'll be the day that I die
This'll be the day that I die

The last 15 years or so were spent on my career and then on my health. Somewhere in that span everything changed! No more wood stocked rifles, no more scopes with normal turret caps as they all have adjustable turrets now, and most of all the hunting prospects are upside down!
Fifteen years ago an Elephant hunt was way out of reach but a Brown Bear hunt was attainable. A Buffalo hunt was a serious endeavor but a trophy Elk hunt was an easy get. Plains game was still an expensive deal and maybe a once in a lifetime hunt for someone where as a Mule Deer in a trophy unit could be had!
Now Elephant hunts are less expensive than Brown Bear hunts are! Elk hunts are as expensive as Elephant hunts in trophy units! Mule deer tags in trophy units are so scarce one can go a lifetime and not draw!
Brown Bear up to $50k! New Mexico Elk hunts up to $35k! Lottery Mule Deer $500,000+!!! And I won’t even go into what a Sheep hunt can cost SMH
One can hunt trophy Elephant, Buff, and most plains game for less?!?! Sometimes much much less

When was it the music died for North American hunts and firearms and accessories? It all happened so fast and not only did I see it pass me but I never thought it would happen!
I have to wonder what caused it all? Did the wars push all the black rifle craziness and silly turrets? Did the anti-hunters push the prices on trophy hunts to the point of being unattainable for most?
It’s now less expensive to hunt Africa than it is for trophy hunts in North America…

And them good ol boys were drinking whiskey ‘n rye
Singin’ this’ll be the day that I die…

Greed. Miss much of the above. And, should they have shot 2 caribou every trip back then, or 1? Same answer. Not global warming or wolves. Tribal "Own-Use" hunts are a great alternative to avoid the steep trophy fees! Thank God we can still grow big whitetail deer on our own lands in America! It's quite possible the current adminstration may free up some ducats for use by the rightful owners once again...I just laugh at all the black plastic POS (it's coca-cola sold en masse in yet another form.) I avoid it like the plague. Some of the scopes I can live with as they're top-notch (and many feature "mini-turrets" that telescope or collapse within the span of a normalish cap. Semi- or fully custom is the way to go with rifles these days, or the perfectly fine "antique" of your choosing! I'm still sad that I sold my teenage 300 WM...It served me so well and of course should've NEVER traded it in (on a nice, ultralight, weatherproof, super accurate Wby that I still have.)

 

[Milo]

The younger generation for the most part has no interest in traditional type rifles and equipment. They are tech material based buyers, and they don't have near the volume of guns that most of us do, they buy more what they need. Scopes have changed simply due to what this young generation wants, more military type stuff than anything.

In Alaska it is a supply and demand issue, I'm guessing there aren't a lot of up and comer guides, so fewer guides yet more people with money wanting to do it, why wouldn't they charge the absolute maximum that they can. The ultimate backlash for this and what is happening out west which is similar, the end of hunting. Once this 40-70 year old generation is gone, broke, or unwilling to pay the prices any longer, all of these guides are going to be out of a job. My guess is there is always going to be a slug of super wealthy international types to keep Africa going to some degree, unless Africa cuts its own throat and the same thing happens, which quite honestly is happening already to some degree. My recent experience has taught me that it cost 40-50k to do a 10 day, 2-buff hunt in a wild area in east Africa, modest airline seats, tips, fees, permits, etc. Seriously, this younger generation isn't even going to be able to afford to buy their own home much less spend 50k on a vacation.

The Alaska guide licensing system is a ponzi scheme that keeps the good old boys in business and the competition out. There's a ton of young guys that want to follow the Alaskan dream till they find out it's all bullshit.

 

[towserthemouser]

I can live with the black rifle craze because there are still alternatives, but the ballistic turrets on scopes I find very frustrating. Some scopes I understand, but I can’t understand on every scope. If I buy a 1-5 Leupold scope for DG I have absolutely no need for a CDS dial. It’s just an item to fail. It’s getting more difficult to find scopes without ballistic dials. I see Swarovski’s new line states with and without dials so hopefully that’s a positive step.

Black rifles and ballistic turrets everywhere, nor any drop of big bore brass to drink in sight.....

- apologies to Coleridge and the Ancient Mariner

 

[BGGMKLR]

So bye, bye, Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry
And them good ol boys were drinking whiskey 'n rye
Singin' this'll be the day that I die
This'll be the day that I die

The last 15 years or so were spent on my career and then on my health. Somewhere in that span everything changed! No more wood stocked rifles, no more scopes with normal turret caps as they all have adjustable turrets now, and most of all the hunting prospects are upside down!
Fifteen years ago an Elephant hunt was way out of reach but a Brown Bear hunt was attainable. A Buffalo hunt was a serious endeavor but a trophy Elk hunt was an easy get. Plains game was still an expensive deal and maybe a once in a lifetime hunt for someone where as a Mule Deer in a trophy unit could be had!
Now Elephant hunts are less expensive than Brown Bear hunts are! Elk hunts are as expensive as Elephant hunts in trophy units! Mule deer tags in trophy units are so scarce one can go a lifetime and not draw!
Brown Bear up to $50k! New Mexico Elk hunts up to $35k! Lottery Mule Deer $500,000+!!! And I won’t even go into what a Sheep hunt can cost SMH
One can hunt trophy Elephant, Buff, and most plains game for less?!?! Sometimes much much less

When was it the music died for North American hunts and firearms and accessories? It all happened so fast and not only did I see it pass me but I never thought it would happen!
I have to wonder what caused it all? Did the wars push all the black rifle craziness and silly turrets? Did the anti-hunters push the prices on trophy hunts to the point of being unattainable for most?
It’s now less expensive to hunt Africa than it is for trophy hunts in North America…

And them good ol boys were drinking whiskey ‘n rye
Singin’ this’ll be the day that I die…

AND...for those curious about Sheep. A Bighorn tag was auctioned at the Sheep Show a couple of weeks ago...
1.3 million dollars.
Spike

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I posted a pretty long response on a similar thread a while back, so I won't regurgitate that.

I was a school teacher in KS a long time ago, and access to private ground was rapidly evaporating... so I moved to Alaska. Best decision of my adult life. For those of you who can afford and have leases in other states, more power to you. But you're forcing out a lot of folks. I have friends who have quit hunting because they can't get or afford access, and grounds with public access have too many hunters already. I won't say you're a part of the problem, with leasing property, but you are a part of the change that has happened.

Even here (in Alaska) things are changing. The local native corporation where I live owns the land along the best parts of the Nushagak River. Over the past decade or so they have started to restrict access so that only shareholders are able to hunt moose. A few years back they made it much, much harder for non-watershed hunters to hunt fall moose. And then it went away entirely. This year, the first week of season is now off limits completely to local non-native residents. It doesn't really affect me - I typically hunt the last week of season anyhow. But there are groups of people that will now be SOL. School teachers usually have a few days built into the beginning of the calendar to moose hunt before school starts. This effectively gives them no place to hunt, unless they want to fly out somewhere.

It's happening everywhere, in some fashion. I still feel like my best place to be, for hunting here at home, is where I am. But it's depressing, IMHO.

American Pie came out in 1971. I was five. In many ways it was a much better world back then; I did not lack for hunting, fishing, or trapping access during the days of my youth. Please, thank you, and close the gate were largely all that was required.

 

[Hunt anything]

AND...for those curious about Sheep. A Bighorn tag was auctioned at the Sheep Show a couple of weeks ago...
1.3 million dollars.
Spike

Damn, I was only out bid by 1.299 million. That’s crazy I can’t even begin to fathom that kinda money for anything!

 

[bakerb]

20ish years ago when I was in law school I had the chance to do a caribou drop hunt in Alaska for $1500. I was broke and didn’t want to borrow money to do it. Now I understand that hiring a transporter for a drop camp is $5,000 and a 2-3 year waiting list. . . . Just one example. I should’ve borrowed the money to do it 20 years ago. I’m sure 20 years from now I’ll wonder why I didn’t spend $5,000 to do it

It’s all going up.

The black rifle craze doesn’t bother me. I was into them and had one before they were cool. I bought one on my 18th birthday in 1999. No one carried them. I had to order one and it took 6 months. No one had one at that time. There were all sorts of “ban” requirements on them at that time, as the assault weapons ban had not sunsetted yet. People thought I was crazy for wanting one.

I still have that Bushmaster and it’s still accurate and I’ve killed quite a few coyotes and other predators with it.

 

[Bighorn191]

I've been hunting CO and a few other nearby states for a long time and I think one of the big things that changed everything was the advent of publications/scouting publication services like the Huntin Fool. When that thing came along, it was as if anyone and everyone could hunt other states and know exactly where to go and what to expect for trophy size, etc. This changed all the bonus point and preference point systems and point creep started. Then it became increasingly difficult to draw tags that used to come around every once in a while without any point systems in place for tags. People started paying to play and now it's completely out of hand.

A month ago, I booked a caribou hunt in the NWT for myself and my son. We couldn't get anything sooner than 2028 and the price wasn't even locked in because they don't know how much the hunts will be worth by then. But, it'll be somewhere north of $26k each. I did a moose and caribou hunt in 1989 for $5500 in the Rogue River country of the Yukon. Combo hunts there now are $50k+

Times change and prices do too but I'd have a hard time as a parent now introducing my kids to hunting. It's simply out of control for most people now. Sure, you can go whack does or cow elk for less money but who wants to do that for very long? Good antelope hunts in NM are now $8k. Elk hunts if you draw a good tag are $10k+. Who can afford things like this for themselves, much less a passel of kids. It's sad to see it going this way.

 

[markm]

So bye, bye, Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry
And them good ol boys were drinking whiskey 'n rye
Singin' this'll be the day that I die
This'll be the day that I die

The last 15 years or so were spent on my career and then on my health. Somewhere in that span everything changed! No more wood stocked rifles, no more scopes with normal turret caps as they all have adjustable turrets now, and most of all the hunting prospects are upside down!
Fifteen years ago an Elephant hunt was way out of reach but a Brown Bear hunt was attainable. A Buffalo hunt was a serious endeavor but a trophy Elk hunt was an easy get. Plains game was still an expensive deal and maybe a once in a lifetime hunt for someone where as a Mule Deer in a trophy unit could be had!
Now Elephant hunts are less expensive than Brown Bear hunts are! Elk hunts are as expensive as Elephant hunts in trophy units! Mule deer tags in trophy units are so scarce one can go a lifetime and not draw!
Brown Bear up to $50k! New Mexico Elk hunts up to $35k! Lottery Mule Deer $500,000+!!! And I won’t even go into what a Sheep hunt can cost SMH
One can hunt trophy Elephant, Buff, and most plains game for less?!?! Sometimes much much less

When was it the music died for North American hunts and firearms and accessories? It all happened so fast and not only did I see it pass me but I never thought it would happen!
I have to wonder what caused it all? Did the wars push all the black rifle craziness and silly turrets? Did the anti-hunters push the prices on trophy hunts to the point of being unattainable for most?
It’s now less expensive to hunt Africa than it is for trophy hunts in North America…

And them good ol boys were drinking whiskey ‘n rye
Singin’ this’ll be the day that I die…

That’s why I hunt exclusively in Africa won’t hunt in states prices are just not worth it

 

[375Fox]

I've been hunting CO and a few other nearby states for a long time and I think one of the big things that changed everything was the advent of publications/scouting publication services like the Huntin Fool. When that thing came along, it was as if anyone and everyone could hunt other states and know exactly where to go and what to expect for trophy size, etc. This changed all the bonus point and preference point systems and point creep started. Then it became increasingly difficult to draw tags that used to come around every once in a while without any point systems in place for tags. People started paying to play and now it's completely out of hand.

A month ago, I booked a caribou hunt in the NWT for myself and my son. We couldn't get anything sooner than 2028 and the price wasn't even locked in because they don't know how much the hunts will be worth by then. But, it'll be somewhere north of $26k each. I did a moose and caribou hunt in 1989 for $5500 in the Rogue River country of the Yukon. Combo hunts there now are $50k+

Times change and prices do too but I'd have a hard time as a parent now introducing my kids to hunting. It's simply out of control for most people now. Sure, you can go whack does or cow elk for less money but who wants to do that for very long? Good antelope hunts in NM are now $8k. Elk hunts if you draw a good tag are $10k+. Who can afford things like this for themselves, much less a passel of kids. It's sad to see it going this way.

We may not have western quality hunting in the east, but it is nice in places like Pennsylvania and New York land is easily accessible for hunting for free, especially small game and trapping. Deer is a little more competitive be still very accessible to anyone.

 

[towserthemouser]

Damn, I was only out bid by 1.299 million. That’s crazy I can’t even begin to fathom that kinda money for anything!

I heard a rumor that a probable World Record sheep has been sighted and whereabouts known, which might help explain why someone was willing to pay that amount. They weren't necessarily just bidding on a sheep tag, but a potential World Record sheep tag...... we shall see in time.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

I’ve often thought that we as a community should set up some sort of a reciprocal hunt system where we take turns hosting and guiding our fellow forum members similar to the pay it forward thread.

 

[375Fox]

That’s why I hunt exclusively in Africa won’t hunt in states prices are just not worth it

I generally agree with you, but there are still a few very good values in North America. Inland black bear in British Columbia or Sitka blacktail deer in Alaska are two very good values both for the money spent and experience. I find drawing tags and applying very off putting but guided hunts for those tags are still pretty reasonable. I think outfitters deserve to make all they can and I’m glad the demand is there, but I do think Africa and Europe better suit what I’m looking for at the moment.

 

[skydiver386]

I've been hunting CO and a few other nearby states for a long time and I think one of the big things that changed everything was the advent of publications/scouting publication services like the Huntin Fool. When that thing came along, it was as if anyone and everyone could hunt other states and know exactly where to go and what to expect for trophy size, etc. This changed all the bonus point and preference point systems and point creep started. Then it became increasingly difficult to draw tags that used to come around every once in a while without any point systems in place for tags. People started paying to play and now it's completely out of hand.

A month ago, I booked a caribou hunt in the NWT for myself and my son. We couldn't get anything sooner than 2028 and the price wasn't even locked in because they don't know how much the hunts will be worth by then. But, it'll be somewhere north of $26k each. I did a moose and caribou hunt in 1989 for $5500 in the Rogue River country of the Yukon. Combo hunts there now are $50k+

Times change and prices do too but I'd have a hard time as a parent now introducing my kids to hunting. It's simply out of control for most people now. Sure, you can go whack does or cow elk for less money but who wants to do that for very long? Good antelope hunts in NM are now $8k. Elk hunts if you draw a good tag are $10k+. Who can afford things like this for themselves, much less a passel of kids. It's sad to see it going this way.

Precisely.
I went to one of the original lectures about scouting and tag application services and I told them this was going to become a problem right then and there. You didn't have to be a mathematician to figure out that if people that used to only apply for tags in their own state were now applying in 4 other states, the total number of applications all over the Western states would double, possibly quadruple.

At this initial lecture, people were being encouraged to apply for as many tag types (Pronghorn, Mule Deer, Elk, Sheep, etc.) as they could afford in as many States as they could afford.

What person with an I Q. more than three points above an oyster didn't this was going to happen?

In Arizona where I served in the Army, there were just over 100 desert bighorn tags available every year. Latest numbers are almost 170,000 applications for those tags! That puts you odds of drawing a tag at 17,000 to 1.

The Kaibab and other areas were very much in demand, but still possible. Not now!

I may look dumb, but that's just a disguise. I predicted this exact scenario, and now it's come to pass.

In my home State of Ohio, I pay around $35 for a deer tag, they are over the counter and in some years you could get as many as 8, but not all in the same zone or county. Western Hunting is a joke to me, with a few exceptions.