Stalking Rifle Project Wunderings...

[EDELWEISS]

I just bought a nice Mauser action from a member here. I had planned to let it sit for a bit, while I got some other things settled; but its nagging me to get started, so Im looking for suggestions....

Its a Erfurt small ring / large (barrel) shank. I think its from a KAR98. The bolt was nicely replaced with a proper sporter style and swept back for scope use. If the bolt still needed work I would have opted for a butterknife style; but this one is so nice it just doesnt merit the effort. Right now it has a lightweight triggerguard from Brownell's that has a pronghorn relief on the hinged base, again its not my first choice but its not baaaaad, (given the choice I would have picked something with oak leaves and acorns...). It DOES need a trigger. I sorta want a set trigger actually a double set; but I dont think the double set will fit inside this triggerguard (a single set will probably be OK). In fairness I RARELY use the set triggers that I have on other guns; but its cool factor.

I have TWO concepts in mind: FIRST is a slim full length stock with say a 18inch barrel. I think Ive found a guy that can help me with that; unfortunately hes not close so I have only internet pics to judge by. Right now hes doing a conventional stock for a Rem 700, once I get it in my hand, I'll decide. I reeeeely like full length stocks when done right and hate them when done poorly. SECOND is a conventional sporter stock with a 22 or 24inch barrel. I have a couple options on the barrel. Im looking at a lightweight profile (thick enough to mount sights--a rifle needs iron sights). Ive also thought about a barrel band swivel or at least a barrel mount for a sling point-OR-a slim octagonal (maybe dodecaon-12 sided) barrel just cuz....

I like light rifles for hunting where Im gonna be doing more walking than trigger pulling.

I think I want 6.5x55; Im open to suggestions. I was told 308 and 30-06 (and similar) was not good because the pressure was too high. Ive also been told they were fine (but 30-06 wouldnt fit and I shouldnt cut the action for it). Id love 7mm08; but its a 308 case and similar pressure issues. I do have a fascination for 6.5x55, so I could live with that. Im open to others.

Right now its drilled/tapped for Leupold mounts, which are fine. If I had been doing it from the start I probably would have picked more European style mounts, maybe even something like WW2 turrets or a side mount. Ive got a couple optic options just waiting to be mounted. Theres a Hensolt 6x with a No1 post and a Meopta Optic with a No4 that I had to have and if I go modern I have a Trijicon AccuPoint 1-5x with a "lit" reticle.

Currently it has the original Mauser flag type safety. Im torn between changing to a "modern" Winchester type 3 position safety OR a Remington type trigger safety OR a WW2 style "extended" sniper style safety.

Suggestions???

 

[Clayton]

The oak leaves and acorns says something about you. With that in mind I'm gonna say go with the 6.5x55 in a light 22" round bbl in a classic traditional style rifle.

Look forward to progress reports on this project.

 

[Mekaniks]

Cool project! There is nothing wrong with a 6.5x55. A 20" barrel and a full length Bavarian style stock would be pretty sweet. Lots of barrel and stock choices out there.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Im picturing a full length stock with an exposed barrel stub for a suppressor mount. I know a suppressor isnt traditional; but I think its a cool addition and a nod to both the old and new...The other option is a short stock with say a 24 inch octagon barrel.

Im torn because BOTH sound really cool. Hmmmmm?

 

[mdwest]

I bought an action off the same guy... I picked up the CZ VZ24 / Mauser he was selling.. and have been working on a similar project, but have been going in a completely different direction... I'm going the heavier rifle route and .35 whelen for caliber..

If you need any bolt work done.. these guys do AWESOME work, at what I feel is a really good price..

http://www.fincherscorner.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html

Their website is a little lacking.. but I sent my bolt off to them to be polished, have the bolt handle bent to clear a scope, and have the bolt body engraved with my wifes name (the rifle I'm building is for her).. I couldn't be more pleased with the work.. they turned my bolt around in 2 days after they received it.. the quality of the work is simply excellent.. and the price for all of the above listed work was $100 including tax/shipping/etc..

I installed a timney low profile safety on mine (Finchers polished the safety for me too).. was very easy to do myself.. no gunsmithing required.. It dropped right in with no fitting... $37 from midwayusa... I also installed a timney sportsman trigger (also easy to install yourself.. no gunsmithing required.. it dropped right in with no fitting).. paid $60 for the trigger..

You can see a pic of my wifes bolt with the polished timney installed here:

http://www.fincherscorner.com/store...OLISHING_&_YOUR_NAME_ETCHED_on_BOLT_BODY.html

 

[stug]

Have a look for some of Von Gruffs posts he builds lovely rifles on similar actions.
Here is the one to read http://www.africahunting.com/threads/a-1916-erfurt-small-ring-project.26236/

 

[mdwest]

Have a look for some of Von Gruffs posts he builds lovely rifles on similar actions.
Here is the one to read http://www.africahunting.com/threads/a-1916-erfurt-small-ring-project.26236/

that thread is exactly the one that inspired me to take on a mauser build of my own (although I have 1/100th of the skills of Von Gruff and will be relying on a local gunsmith and "easy" drop in parts for most of my build)...

 

[EDELWEISS]

I'm reeeeely liking the full stock (plus suppressor mount) idea. I'm picturing a stock design for a 18" barrel with a short stub sticking past the stock for the QD suppressor mount. Gemtech makes a few different mounts. They have a flash hider design as well as a muzzle break unit that might be useful when the suppressor isn't mounted BUT don't exactly look like they belong on a full stocked Stalking rifle (although the flash hider is starting to call my name---no no no must'n listen).

They also make a design they call a "Tension" device. Its slips over the barrel and threads on at the front of the unit so it adds very little to the length of the barrel. It also has the plus of not looking like a military weapon (not that its a bad thing-just that I don't want it on this gun).

So a 19.5 inch barrel in a 18 inch stock with a metal end cap.

The idea being that the rifle would be carried without the suppressor for the "stalk" and the suppressor only mounted before the shot or once in a shooting position/blind.

Heres a picture of a No4 Mk1 Enfield as a concept view

My "idea" of course wouldn't have a top handguard; but I'm thinking that I like Steyr type iron sights

I'm still drawn to double set triggers just not sure if its enough to go searching for a different triggerguard

The whole thing falls to pieces if I cant get a good stock guy, and one that understands my version of insanity......

 

[nztimb]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

When I read through this thread I was struck by the seeming anomoly where you would look at adding a muzzle devise to the end of an otherwise traditional rifle.

I cant see this mannlicher styled rifle I did recently looking anything like traditionally "right" with the barrel protruding far enough to allow for the mounting of one of the supressors or a muzzle brake.


A stalking rifle has a few characteristics (both visually and by design) that would make adding a muzzle devise change it to be something that denies the stalking rifle concept.

This is the start of a piece I wrote some years back for an article in the local gun magazine

 

[EDELWEISS]

Thank you for responding. YES it is a different concept; but I'm thinking its simply the combination of old and new. I very much DO like the look of a full length stock on a rifle with a relatively short barrel (say under or certainly no more than 20"). That being said a suppressor adds the modern touch. Perhaps some might feel its drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa, and I can appreciate their view; but I think it makes the rifle so much more versatile--especially on a Stalking Rifle at least as I would define it--being light enough for long treks through rough terrain, be that hills or thick forest, being quick handling as a virtue of its lightweight and being short, yes being able to take fast shots on startled game BUT also being able to use a suppressor to dispatch one animal without sending the rest running into the next county.

You are absolutely correct it does change the traditional look; but it also brings tradition into the 21st century. If that means "stalking" has a new definition, then I apologize to the old masters, as for me; I suggest that a ghillie would have loved the advantages of a suppressor for stalking. If that means a rifle barrel extending 1 1/2 past (less actually) past the forend, then so be it. Hunting today is different from the early 20th century. I wish it wasn't but it is--gone are the days of the 3 month safari, replaced in some cases by the 3 day hunt. Hunting today may also mean limits on game and passing on shots in the hopes of getting something better. A "silent" shot (although nothing is really silent outside Hollywood), means more hunting in that same area with in minutes not hours.

Sir you do beautiful work and I very much do respect your view; heck a year ago I might have called this folly myself and scoffed at historical abominations. Despite this technical disagreement, I am interested in your thoughts.....and as I said in the last post if I can not find someone to do the stock work and who understands my "uniqueness" then it may all be a moot point.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Here is a similar project I commissioned based on a M91/30. My musings began with the "What If" of Mosin Nagants being the subject of sporter conversions along side Mausers.

The project took on a life all its own as I added a butterknife bolt handle to the list of wants. This one was scratch made by the smith.

He also added the Steyr style iron sights and made the end cap from scratch. The sling swivels are actual Finn swivels that they produced to change captured M91/30s to Finn design standards.

The scope mount is a Swiss side mount with what seems like a proper scope for the project.

It ended up with a 21" barrel, longer than I initially intended; but I wanted to keep the original dog collar loops (which we fire blued). The laminated stock is also original but much changed its about half as thin from the way it was issued. We decided to change the barrel even though it was an acceptable shooter with the issue barrel. Using the original barrel just didn't make sense when we were doing this much work. Its a McGowen barrel.

I fretted about changing to 9.3x54R (or 53R); but finding quality ammo is hard enough for 762x54R, let alone 9.3x54R. As it is I'll put 762x54R up against anything short of Brown Bear, and wouldn't run in fear if a Brownie popped up in front of me with an attitude....

NO I didn't go the suppressor route; but that was based more on limited suppressors for .311 bullets than wanting to keep it traditional.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Oh and the "next" Mosin will have a 24" (+) barrel, perhaps an octagonal barrel with a short stock (cut off just in front of the swell). The current thought is to use a PE scope, for a bit more Russian flair.

Not a "twin" so much as a step brother.

 

[nztimb]

Up to a point, when I replied I was thinking of a rifle that was featured in the Rifle magazine some years back where a guy had been building a antelope rifle in 6mm-284 and wanted a mannlicher stock so sent all the metalwork off to be sorted and got in a precarve stock and when the metal work returned the barrel was 2 inches longer than asked for and it sort of looked strange but he left it like that as it shot very well
The some time back I was asked to do a mannlicher stocked Sako with the same butstock as his present stock but the forestock (with the donkey dick forend tip) like the Sako Bavarian and I did the stockwork before the barrel was shortened and I got the same sort of look

While there is no such thing as a defined pattern for any of the purposes that a rifle can be put to, there are generally defined styles that have traditionally defined names and I suppose it is the style name that I was (sic) defending.
In reality there is no reason at all that you shouldnt have any style changed to your own preference to accomadate the type of shooting that the present day has caused to become the excepted norn which is the exact reason the the style became traditional in the 1920's and 30's.
So having said all that I opolagise for any seeming critisizm that may have been implied in either of my replies.

 

[PaulT]

Von Gruff, even without handling or shooting this rifle the shape and proportions shown convinces me this thing would shoulder and point itself !

Congrats on a very well proportioned "full-wood" (take that compliment any way you like).

I've always wanted a nice manlicher and several years back missed out on an exceptional kilamanjaro (Sth African built) 358WSM with a nice 20" tube and exceptionally shaped "full-wood" stock. The guy that bought it still hasn't used it so I still may end up with it yet !!

It takes some skill to get the dimensions and proportions just "right" on a full-wood and not many succeed. This one pictured looks to be an exception to the rule and displays some thoughtful shaping.
When the stock is done correctly there is just something instinctive in shouldering and pointing a mannlicher, they seem to want to do most of the aiming themselves, very automatic, I love it. Very useful for fast action, instinctive shooting situations.

Thanks all for posting.

 

[EDELWEISS]

.... when the metal work returned the barrel was 2 inches longer than asked for and it sort of looked strange but he left it like that as it shot very well

While there is no such thing as a defined pattern for any of the purposes that a rifle can be put to, there are generally defined styles that have traditionally defined names and I suppose it is the style name that I was (sic) defending.
In reality there is no reason at all that you shouldnt have any style changed to your own preference to accomadate the type of shooting that the present day has caused to become the excepted norn which is the exact reason the the style became traditional in the 1920's and 30's.
So having said all that I opolagise for any seeming critisizm that may have been implied in either of my replies.

NO apologies necessary, unless my reply seemed harsh, then please accept mine, along with an electronic handshake offered in reconciliation.

Hahaha looking at the above picture, I cant help but think how cool that would be if it was a muzzle break sticking out.....

IF its a "name" thing, then Id happily consider name options, perhaps Tracking or Pursuit Rifle???

 

[nztimb]

Now that is an interesting concept - tracking / persuit makes for a very descriptive modernisation of the of the stalking rifle nomenclature with a touch of urgency addded. I like it.
Handshake reciprocated

 

[BobT]

I have been working on a similar project for the last few years, my action is a 1908 Brazilian and it was so smooth I decided to leave it in the original 7x57. I went with a 21" barrel and an early Mauser sporter style precarve which I will alter to suit. I decided to go with a Dakota M70 style 3 position safety and Timney trigger. I am planning on a butter knife bolt handle.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Thats a sweet looking project you have there. I wanna see it when its done. I love the barrel band front sight. What are your plans for the rear sight? What reticle are you using in that scope.

Damn, now you guys are making me think I want to do a long barrel/short stock version--I guess I have to find another action...

 

[BobT]

Thats a sweet looking project you have there. I wanna see it when its done. I love the barrel band front sight. What are your plans for the rear sight? What reticle are you using in that scope.

Damn, now you guys are making me think I want to do a long barrel/short stock version--I guess I have to find another action...

Thanks, I actually gave that scope to my eldest grandson but it was a standard duplex reticle. The sights are a vintage Lyman pin on ramp and a Lyman 57 peep that were rescued off an old Johnson Automatics sporter that had been basically ruined by Bubba. The banded front will require shrinking for the small diameter muzzle. I have made some progress since that photo, the barrel has been fit as has the safety and I have drilled and tapped the receiver. I'm still not quite sure what, if anything I will do to the bottom metal but leaning toward re-contouring the guard and an FN style push button release. I still have some machining to do on the bolt handle and will have to get it welded on.

 

[Rule 303]

Edelweiss, I am a little confused. You said the Mauser was a Kar 98 and might not handle the presser from a 308 or 7-08. If it is a 98 then it should well be able to handle those pressures.

Nice project by the way.