Taking ITAR controlled scopes into countries as a gift

[Corey0372]

I have a friend in Namibia who I'm trying to trade a scope to for something. It's a Trijicon Tenmile FFP, so ITAR rules apply as far as I can tell. When you take weapons over for hunting are scopes part of the paperwork process? And is it going to raise any flags if I show up with the scope but leave without it?

 

[WAB]

I would take these laws seriously, the consequences of not doing so could be quite bad.

 

[Corey0372]

I would take these laws seriously, the consequences of not doing so could be quite bad.

That's exactly why I'm trying to reach out and see if anyone here has any experience in this aspect. Looking through the past threads there's some explanations of gifting rifles/ filling out paperwork for hunting trips, but I couldn't find anything on actually leaving a piece of gear there. I definitely wouldn't just say screw it, and potentially get myself or a buddy in trouble down the road.

 

[WAB]

That's exactly why I'm trying to reach out and see if anyone here has any experience in this aspect. Looking through the past threads there's some explanations of gifting rifles/ filling out paperwork for hunting trips, but I couldn't find anything on actually leaving a piece of gear there. I definitely wouldn't just say screw it, and potentially get myself or a buddy in trouble down the road.

Gotcha. I seem to recall that there are export permitting procedures for ITAR items. I suspect that you are going to find them much too onerous for a one time item. Sorry I’m not much help. Hopefully others will chime in.

 

[TTundra]

You do not need to fill out a scope on your 4457, but bigger issue is the ITAR process. To legally bring an ITAR controlled item outside the US, you need to do the paperwork and get approval from the DDTC. If you do not bring the item that has the DDTC permit back, you're in trouble. I do not know the process of a selling DDTC permit as an individual, but even if granted, taxes and duties will he owed as claiming its $0 value as a gift wont fly.

May be best to find a scope/gift that isnt ITAR controlled

@mdwest had some good info on NV on this before, maybe he can chime in.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

You do not need to fill out a scope on your 4457, but bigger issue is the ITAR process. To legally bring an ITAR controlled item outside the US, you need to do the paperwork and get approval from the DDTC. If you do not bring the item that has the DDTC permit back, you're in trouble. I do not know the process of a selling DDTC permit as an individual, but even if granted, taxes and duties will he owed as claiming its $0 value as a gift wont fly.

May be best to find a scope/gift that isnt ITAR controlled

@mdwest had some good info on NV on this before, maybe he can chime in.

Every time I've taken a rifle to the CBP office to get a form 4457, they have also added the scope description and serial number. The form 4457 title is: Certificate of Registration for Personal Effects Taken Abroad. The form documents your ownership of the article and is mainly for bringing it back into the US.

OpticsPlanet website has a good page detailing ITAR restrictions.

Export Policy and Export Restrictions Information

Export Policy and Export Restrictions Information

www.opticsplanet.com

 

[Corey0372]

Every time I've taken a rifle to the CBP office to get a form 4457, they have also added the scope description and serial number. The form 4457 title is: Certificate of Registration for Personal Effects Taken Abroad. The form documents your ownership of the article and is mainly for bringing it back into the US.

OpticsPlanet website has a good page detailing ITAR restrictions.

Export Policy and Export Restrictions Information

Export Policy and Export Restrictions Information

www.opticsplanet.com

So if the rifle you plan on hunting with has an ITAR controlled scope is this an issue? Even if I didn't leave a scope in country the rifle I plan on taking on my next trip has an ITAR controlled scope on it.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

So if the rifle you plan on hunting with has an ITAR controlled scope is this an issue? Even if I didn't leave a scope in country the rifle I plan on taking on my next trip has an ITAR controlled scope on it.

I believe the difference is you are temporarily exporting your scope/firearm as opposed to exporting for sale/trade. Your intent is to bring it back to the US.

 

[WAB]

It’s an excellent question. I believe that most if not all of my illuminated scopes are ITAR. I’ve never had an issue but I wonder what the letter of the law is.

 

[mdwest]

Unless the Ten-Mile is captured by the US Munitions List (USML) Category XII, you dont need to be concerned with ITAR... (Cat XII means the scope was specifically designed for a military end user..)..

Rifle scopes (excepting Cat XII USML) were removed from jurisdiction of ITAR under the most recent series of reforms..

Departments of State and Commerce Issue Final Rules Amending Export Regulations on Firearms and Ammunition

www.wiley.law

True "night vision" and "thermals" are NOT considered to be "scopes"... They may or may not be regulated depending on the "generation" of NV or thermal you are considering..

Illuminated reticles, mil-dot reticles, etc.. are inconsequential at this point.. all that matters is who the scope was designed for (was it designed for "competitive shooters"? hunters? etc? or was it specifically designed for a military organization?)...If it wasnt designed for the military, its no longer an ITAR issue.. (no one is going to state their optic was "designed for the military" by the way.. to my knowledge the US military has never asked for the civilian market to design a scope for any of its services.. it has just T&E'd "tactical" scopes from time to time and selected the best ones for its needs.. Manufacturers are going to say the scope was designed for "hard use, long range, competitive, shooting, etc..)..

 

[TTundra]

Every time I've taken a rifle to the CBP office to get a form 4457, they have also added the scope description and serial number. The form 4457 title is: Certificate of Registration for Personal Effects Taken Abroad. The form documents your ownership of the article and is mainly for bringing it back into the US.

OpticsPlanet website has a good page detailing ITAR restrictions.

Export Policy and Export Restrictions Information

Export Policy and Export Restrictions Information

www.opticsplanet.com

I asked about the scopes specifically once as I brought a back up in my luggage. While they wrote it on the 4457 for the mounted scopes, they said I could add the extra scope to the 4457 if I wanted, but wasnt necessary (right or wrong, just what I was told by that officer). This was at a Chicago based CBP office and again one in Greensboro, NC.

 

[TTundra]

@mdwest great info, thank you.

 

[npm352]

I do not know the laws and what falls under what category and what is specifically restricted for export and what is not. I will say this...Make sure you understand the law and follow it. The purpose of those laws is to keep weapons technology out of the wrong hands. I am sure whoever you are wanting to gift it to is not an issue....but what happens if it is stolen and used for something bad. Very very tiny chance, but you would end up in prison if you were not on the up and up. It is an item that is serialized and easy to track.

I would make a email the proper law enforcement and get a definitive answer for that specific item. AH is a great resource, but I would not use it for legal advice on something like this.

 

[mdwest]

I would make a email the proper law enforcement and get a definitive answer for that specific item. AH is a great resource, but I would not use it for legal advice on something like this.

Law enforcement isnt who you contact to get a ruling or determination on a federal regulation.. cops know nothing about this at all (whether we're talking local, state, or federal)..

you contact the agency, organization that "owns" the regulation.. and speak to the people responsible for regulatory enforcement..

In this case we are talking about ITAR... which is controlled by the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) within the Pol-Mil bureau of the US State Dept..

In the post above a link from a law firm, that specializes in law related to ITAR was provided...

Lawyers are also a good source for getting someone to explain federal regulation if you find one that specializes in that sort of thing..

Companies that possess DDTC certification for ITAR export, have an up to date export controls manual in place that specifically addresses how to walk the dog on all matters related to ITAR, EAR, DEAR, etc and that routinely exports regulated/controlled items as part of doing business with the US government, and know a couple of guys at DDTC by name, is another great source.. Theyre especially good if one of their senior executives has done quite a bit of work on the side as an ITAR consultant and has helped multiple companies get set up for ITAR/EAR/DEAR compliance as they expand into international operations... (I might know someone that resembles this description)...


I do however agree with you... taking ITAR advice from someone you never met on the internet is a bad idea...

Which is why the link was provided..

 

[npm352]

Law enforcement isnt who you contact to get a ruling or determination on a federal regulation.. cops know nothing about this at all (whether we're talking local, state, or federal)..

you contact the agency, organization that "owns" the regulation.. and speak to the people responsible for regulatory enforcement..

In this case we are talking about ITAR... which is controlled by the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) within the Pol-Mil bureau of the US State Dept..

In the post above a link from a law firm, that specializes in law related to ITAR was provided...

Lawyers are also a good source for getting someone to explain federal regulation if you find one that specializes in that sort of thing..

Companies that possess DDTC certification for ITAR export, have an up to date export controls manual in place that specifically addresses how to walk the dog on all matters related to ITAR, EAR, DEAR, etc and that routinely exports regulated/controlled items as part of doing business with the US government, and know a couple of guys at DDTC by name, is another great source.. Theyre especially good if one of their senior executives has done quite a bit of work on the side as an ITAR consultant and has helped multiple companies get set up for ITAR/EAR/DEAR compliance as they expand into international operations... (I might know someone that resembles this description)...


I do however agree with you... taking ITAR advice from someone you never met on the internet is a bad idea...

Which is why the link was provided..

I would say if you have to consult with a lawyer to determine if can bring someone a gift overseas without going to federal prison it might be good to consider another gift.

 

[rookhawk]

That's exactly why I'm trying to reach out and see if anyone here has any experience in this aspect. Looking through the past threads there's some explanations of gifting rifles/ filling out paperwork for hunting trips, but I couldn't find anything on actually leaving a piece of gear there. I definitely wouldn't just say screw it, and potentially get myself or a buddy in trouble down the road.

ITAR = Stinger Missiles and Landmines.

I'd suggest not gifting or bringing an ITAR regulated sporting optic into Africa. If you're insistent, I'd shut your mouth and end the thread. Asking for permission and waving your hands in the air trying to do the right thing virtually guarantees you get yourself into serious trouble. Stinger Missiles and some Tasco Red Dot....same laws apply so think about the type of bureaucrat you're going to deal with.

 

[mdwest]

I would say if you have to consult with a lawyer to determine if can bring someone a gift overseas without going to federal prison it might be good to consider another gift.

Or perhaps just a little common sense could be applied instead...

you recommended calling law enforcement before making the decision.... even though law enforcement can do absolutely nothing for you at all... (clearly you dont have any understanding of ITAR.. not a big deal.. very few actually do... but you nonetheless recommended a course of action anyway)...

I in turn gave multiple options for anyone concerned about ITAR... Contact DDTC... Contact a lawyer familiar with export law.. contact an actual expert in international export (there are also other options.. but these I believe are the most expeditious.. and 2 of the 3 are available and easy enough to find on AH)..

Or... google is an amazing tool.. especially when armed with basic information like DDTC is the body that is responsible for ITAR... go read the actual regulation yourself (since they have spent the last decade cleaning up export regulation, its actually for the most part easy to understand these days.. its not the confusing, discombobulated mess that it was ten years ago.).... go read the FAQ's on the DDTC website.. Go read the FAQ's on legal websites related to exports.. and make a determination...

Or I suppose one could just choose to live in fear and/or refuse to exercise their rights and civil liberties such as being able to give a gift to a friend overseas for a lack of knowledge or desire to actually know the facts/truth of a situation..

For me the choice is pretty simple...


Simply put... if you bother to click the link provided in my first post (A highly regarded DC area law firm that has a group of attorneys that specialize in this sort of thing) and then word search "rifle scope".. things are spelled out in plain english...

100 more websites will tell you the same thing..

A phone call to DDTC (I recommend you wait a couple of weeks or so.. DOS is running on a skeleton crew right now with year end PTO being taken and a new administration waiting to take office).. Will tell you the same thing.. (ask me how I know this... perhaps DOS is an organization I work with as a matter of routine?)

Or... I suppose on your next trip outside the US, you should plan on only taking a rifle with iron sights... because, gosh.. you might be breaking federal law and might go to federal prison (your federal prison reference is another indicator you know little of ITAR.. a single violation without willful criminal intent typically results in a nice fat fine unless youre dealing with classified materials or information... cross the line into classified and you are far more likely to be talking to someone about prison instead of money...)..

As a rule, DDTC would much prefer to take your money than your freedom...

 

[npm352]

Or perhaps just a little common sense could be applied instead...

you recommended calling law enforcement before making the decision.... even though law enforcement can do absolutely nothing for you at all... (clearly you dont have any understanding of ITAR.. not a big deal.. very few actually do... but you nonetheless recommended a course of action anyway)...

I in turn gave multiple options for anyone concerned about ITAR... Contact DDTC... Contact a lawyer familiar with export law.. contact an actual expert in international export (there are also other options.. but these I believe are the most expeditious.. and 2 of the 3 are available and easy enough to find on AH)..

Or... google is an amazing tool.. especially when armed with basic information like DDTC is the body that is responsible for ITAR... go read the actual regulation yourself (since they have spent the last decade cleaning up export regulation, its actually for the most part easy to understand these days.. its not the confusing, discombobulated mess that it was ten years ago.).... go read the FAQ's on the DDTC website.. Go read the FAQ's on legal websites related to exports.. and make a determination...

Or I suppose one could just choose to live in fear and/or refuse to exercise their rights and civil liberties such as being able to give a gift to a friend overseas for a lack of knowledge or desire to actually know the facts/truth of a situation..

For me the choice is pretty simple...


Simply put... if you bother to click the link provided in my first post (A highly regarded DC area law firm that has a group of attorneys that specialize in this sort of thing) and then word search "rifle scope".. things are spelled out in plain english...

100 more websites will tell you the same thing..

A phone call to DDTC (I recommend you wait a couple of weeks or so.. DOS is running on a skeleton crew right now with year end PTO being taken and a new administration waiting to take office).. Will tell you the same thing.. (ask me how I know this... perhaps DOS is an organization I work with as a matter of routine?)

Or... I suppose on your next trip outside the US, you should plan on only taking a rifle with iron sights... because, gosh.. you might be breaking federal law and might go to federal prison (your federal prison reference is another indicator you know little of ITAR.. a single violation without willful criminal intent typically results in a nice fat fine unless youre dealing with classified materials or information... cross the line into classified and you are far more likely to be talking to someone about prison instead of money...)..

As a rule, DDTC would much prefer to take your money than your freedom...

A quick google search will also tell you that people have been sentenced for decades in federal prison for ITAR violations. Should he just assume if he misinterprets an esoteric law that he will just get fined? Would a prosecution in federal court resulting in "just" a fine be not a big deal because no prison time? Should he assume if he does something illegal and gets caught that the prosecutor will take it easy on him? The bigger question: is it worth the risk?

Is the risk worth it to him just because some arrogant guy on an African hunting website told him everything would be ok because he googled it too and found a law firm's website ans can rattle off his claim to fame of knowing a few guys' names and some facts about an obscure federal agency? "But judge, the guy on Africahunting.com said I was just exercising my freedom. Judge, he said even googled it!"

Another consideration: Do you think a potential violation of ITAR by an American hunter hunting in Africa is good for American hunters and African operators? Would something like that help our sport? Would something like this make it potentially easier or harder to take weapons out of the country to hunt?

The OP has already opened himself up to scrutiny by posting this. Bringing a possible ITAR item and leaving it in Africa would probably have been unnoticed but still a pretty big risk. Advertising it on a hunting website won't make going unnoticed easier.

Is it worth the risk? Is doing something you need help from a specialized lawyer to make sure is ok...and then if the item falls under ITAR needing explicit authorization from the U.S. Department of State to legally gift to a foreign national really worth doing? Would he be somehow giving up some crucial part of his freedom if he was somehow able to gift it legally, but either excersized caution or didn't want to consult a lawyer, as you suggested, to find out?

 

[wesheltonj]

. . . As a rule, DDTC would much prefer to take your money than your freedom...

Understatement of the century.

 

[WAB]

A quick google search will also tell you that people have been sentenced for decades in federal prison for ITAR violations. Should he just assume if he misinterprets an esoteric law that he will just get fined? Would a prosecution in federal court resulting in "just" a fine be not a big deal because no prison time? Should he assume if he does something illegal and gets caught that the prosecutor will take it easy on him? The bigger question: is it worth the risk?

Is the risk worth it to him just because some arrogant guy on an African hunting website told him everything would be ok because he googled it too and found a law firm's website ans can rattle off his claim to fame of knowing a few guys' names and some facts about an obscure federal agency? "But judge, the guy on Africahunting.com said I was just exercising my freedom. Judge, he said even googled it!"

Another consideration: Do you think a potential violation of ITAR by an American hunter hunting in Africa is good for American hunters and African operators? Would something like that help our sport? Would something like this make it potentially easier or harder to take weapons out of the country to hunt?

The OP has already opened himself up to scrutiny by posting this. Bringing a possible ITAR item and leaving it in Africa would probably have been unnoticed but still a pretty big risk. Advertising it on a hunting website won't make going unnoticed easier.

Is it worth the risk? Is doing something you need help from a specialized lawyer to make sure is ok...and then if the item falls under ITAR needing explicit authorization from the U.S. Department of State to legally gift to a foreign national really worth doing? Would he be somehow giving up some crucial part of his freedom if he was somehow able to gift it legally, but either excersized caution or didn't want to consult a lawyer, as you suggested, to find out?

I don’t think he’s being arrogant or suggesting that anyone commit an ITAR violation. The OP asked for advice from someone with knowledge on the subject. He is simply trying to provide it along with resources to allow the OP to conduct his own research.