Taking ITAR controlled scopes into countries as a gift

[mdwest]

A quick google search will also tell you that people have been sentenced for decades in federal prison for ITAR violations. Should he just assume if he misinterprets an esoteric law that he will just get fined? Would a prosecution in federal court resulting in "just" a fine be not a big deal because no prison time? Should he assume if he does something illegal and gets caught that the prosecutor will take it easy on him? The bigger question: is it worth the risk?

People also go to prison for decades for rape, murder, and pedo crimes..

Its pretty easy to figure out how to not commit those crimes and not go to prison without having to call a cop and have one define them for you..

Its equally easy to figure this out.. it only takes a little bit of effort...

Or, as stated earlier.. you can chose to live in fear of something you make the conscious decision to not understand, even after people tell you there is nothing to fear there at all..

Is the risk worth it to him just because some arrogant guy on an African hunting website told him everything would be ok because he googled it too and found a law firm's website ans can rattle off his claim to fame of knowing a few guys' names and some facts about an obscure federal agency? "But judge, the guy on Africahunting.com said I was just exercising my freedom. Judge, he said even googled it!"

No one said to listen to what I have posted.. although anyone even remotely informed or that have even a modicum of situational awareness would know that the information I am providing isnt coming from google..

What was said was.. call DDTC.. call a lawyer.. check out the DDTC website...

Or, again, living your life in fear over nothing is also an option I would presume.. .

Another consideration: Do you think a potential violation of ITAR by an American hunter hunting in Africa is good for American hunters and African operators? Would something like that help our sport? Would something like this make it potentially easier or harder to take weapons out of the country to hunt?

Well.. Since gifting a rifle scope is clearly not an ITAR violation... Im not sure how you think there is any potential violation of ITAR... and therefore could hurt anyone in our sport..

but again.. feel free to live your life in fear of something you obviously know nothing about..

The OP has already opened himself up to scrutiny by posting this. Bringing a possible ITAR item and leaving it in Africa would probably have been unnoticed but still a pretty big risk. Advertising it on a hunting website won't make going unnoticed easier.

Once again proving you know nothing at all that you are speaking of... Since the item in question isnt even remotely close to being a regulated item (by the way.. if you go to the Trijicon website.. they take pride in the fact that they have taken this optic specifically to Africa for testing and use and that it has performed...)...

Is it worth the risk? Is doing something you need help from a specialized lawyer to make sure is ok...and then if the item falls under ITAR needing explicit authorization from the U.S. Department of State to legally gift to a foreign national really worth doing? Would he be somehow giving up some crucial part of his freedom if he was somehow able to gift it legally, but either excersized caution or didn't want to consult a lawyer, as you suggested, to find out?

Where exactly is the risk? What exactly is it you are terrified of?

In your first post you made it clear.. you know nothing about ITAR.. you even made a ridiculous recommendation to call law enforcement that proves you know nothing about ITAR to anyone that actually knows anything about ITAR..

Yet you dont want to actually learn any facts...

Again... take 5 minutes to go READ the regulation... inform yourself rather than continue to make ridiculous, unfounded, unsubstantiated statements that cant be supported by any fact.. and are only rationalized by your assumptions...

Or.. as advised prior.. continue to live in fear of something you know nothing about... and continue to choose to remain ignorant of facts..

Im sure you'll really enjoy your next trip to Africa using only iron sights..

 

[npm352]

People also go to prison for decades for rape, murder, and pedo crimes..

Its pretty easy to figure out how to not commit those crimes and not go to prison without having to call a cop and have one define them for you..

Its equally easy to figure this out.. it only takes a little bit of effort...

Or, as stated earlier.. you can chose to live in fear of something you make the conscious decision to not understand, even after people tell you there is nothing to fear there at all..


No one said to listen to what I have posted.. although anyone even remotely informed or that have even a modicum of situational awareness would know that the information I am providing isnt coming from google..

What was said was.. call DDTC.. call a lawyer.. check out the DDTC website...

Or, again, living your life in fear over nothing is also an option I would presume.. .




Well.. Since gifting a rifle scope is clearly not an ITAR violation... Im not sure how you think there is any potential violation of ITAR... and therefore could hurt anyone in our sport..

but again.. feel free to live your life in fear of something you obviously know nothing about..




Once again proving you know nothing at all that you are speaking of... Since the item in question isnt even remotely close to being a regulated item (by the way.. if you go to the Trijicon website.. they take pride in the fact that they have taken this optic specifically to Africa for testing and use and that it has performed...)...

View attachment 382478




Where exactly is the risk? What exactly is it you are terrified of?

In your first post you made it clear.. you know nothing about ITAR.. you even made a ridiculous recommendation to call law enforcement that proves you know nothing about ITAR to anyone that actually knows anything about ITAR..

Yet you dont want to actually learn any facts...

Again... take 5 minutes to go READ the regulation... inform yourself rather than continue to make ridiculous, unfounded, unsubstantiated statements that cant be supported by any fact.. and are only rationalized by your assumptions...

Or.. as advised prior.. continue to live in fear of something you know nothing about... and continue to choose to remain ignorant of facts..

Im sure you'll really enjoy your next trip to Africa using only iron sights..

I will reiterate my original post that was attacked:

"I do not know the laws and what falls under what category and what is specifically restricted for export and what is not. I will say this...Make sure you understand the law and follow it. The purpose of those laws is to keep weapons technology out of the wrong hands."

 

[mdwest]

We completely agree on what is in quotations..

The point in all that followed is understanding that a scope is not an ITAR regulated item (the vast majority of scopes never were ITAR regulated to begin with.. but regulation reform has taken them all out of ITAR at this point) is easy to discern and that there are numerous ways to validate this information if anyone cares to confirm it, that are equally easy to pursue..

Your first post wasnt attacked... the incorrect information you provided was corrected.. by someone that that is knowledgeable of ITAR as well as the other 4 primary regulatory bodies and agencies in the US that control export of everything ranging from financial instruments to weapons systems..

I have shipped literally thousands of firearms, millions of rounds, a thousand or more encrypted radio sets, hundreds of sets of Gen III and Gen IV night vision, thermals, close to a hundred armored vehicles, components for military aircraft, sensitive IT equipment, and a host of other things... to the middle east, Africa, Central America, and SW Asia over the past 20 years... and have been hired by more than a couple of Defense Services and Defense Materials firms to help them establish an export controls program as a consultant, while at the same time running a global defense services firm that is currently operating in 16 countries on behalf of the US government... and am personally known to dozens of people on this site... and was @'d by another member to intentionally make me aware of this thread and bring me into the discussion.... but clearly I have no clue about ITAR ..

Not that a resume drop should be necessary at this point... but a little situational awareness goes a long way...

Next someone will be trying to argue with @Red Leg about field artillery...

 

[mdwest]

As a follow on...

I used to work directly for one of the guys named in the title of this report..

Anyone that knows ITAR, knows that while this document is dated.. it is/was for the last 2 decades considered the gold standard by which companies develop their export programs, policies, and procedures..

but again... what would I know about export...

http://www.usexportcompliance.com/Papers/nunnwolfowitz.pdf

 

[TTundra]

I have shipped literally thousands of firearms, millions of rounds, a thousand or more encrypted radio sets, hundreds of sets of Gen III and Gen IV night vision, thermals, close to a hundred armored vehicles, components for military aircraft, sensitive IT equipment, and a host of other things... to the middle east, Africa, Central America, and SW Asia over the past 20 years... and have been hired by more than a couple of Defense Services and Defense Materials firms to help them establish an export controls program as a consultant, while at the same time running a global defense services firm that is currently operating in 16 countries on behalf of the US government... and am personally known to dozens of people on this site... and was @'d by another member to intentionally make me aware of this thread and bring me into the discussion.... but clearly I have no clue about ITAR ..

Not to fan the fire nor insult anyone...but if there was ever the time to do the "mic drop" , @mdwest nailed it with this.

 

[npm352]

We completely agree on what is in quotations..

The point in all that followed is understanding that a scope is not an ITAR regulated item (the vast majority of scopes never were ITAR regulated to begin with.. but regulation reform has taken them all out of ITAR at this point) is easy to discern and that there are numerous ways to validate this information if anyone cares to confirm it, that are equally easy to pursue..

Your first post wasnt attacked... the incorrect information you provided was corrected.. by someone that that is knowledgeable of ITAR as well as the other 4 primary regulatory bodies and agencies in the US that control export of everything ranging from financial instruments to weapons systems..

I have shipped literally thousands of firearms, millions of rounds, a thousand or more encrypted radio sets, hundreds of sets of Gen III and Gen IV night vision, thermals, close to a hundred armored vehicles, components for military aircraft, sensitive IT equipment, and a host of other things... to the middle east, Africa, Central America, and SW Asia over the past 20 years... and have been hired by more than a couple of Defense Services and Defense Materials firms to help them establish an export controls program as a consultant, while at the same time running a global defense services firm that is currently operating in 16 countries on behalf of the US government... and am personally known to dozens of people on this site... and was @'d by another member to intentionally make me aware of this thread and bring me into the discussion.... but clearly I have no clue about ITAR ..

Not that a resume drop should be necessary at this point... but a little situational awareness goes a long way...

Next someone will be trying to argue with @Red Leg about field artillery...

Hey big guy, I did not say you did not know anything about this. I suggested the OP should exercise caution when dealing with federal laws intended to keep weapons technology out of the wrong hands. I suggested he contact whatever federal law enforcement is in charge of ITAR, in the same way I would suggest someone with an SBR or suppressor question should check with the ATF...not people on an African hunting forum. I did not know the regulatory body in charge of ITAR, but figured when the federal law is broken and investigated, some form of federal law enforcement agency would be in charge of enforcing these law. According to you, I am wrong on this and apparently a federal law enforcement agency is not tasked with enforcing these federal laws, which is fine...I never claimed to know anything about these laws or their enforcement. You responded in arrogance and I pointed that out. If you do not think you're arrogant, then read your posts.

I still stand by everything I have said. It is prudent to know the law if you are fearful enough you will break it that you are reaching out to an African hunting forum for answers. I think that not only it is good to follow the law to protect yourself from prosecution, but also from doing what these particular laws are intended to prevent....having shitbags potentially getting a hold of US weapons technology. I also think that it is not a good idea to look for answers on obscure, esoteric federal law that can potentially bring prison time by asking what amount to anonymous strangers online. I stated error on the side of caution.

If all of your qualifications for your job you stated above make you think that suggesting my opening post of...

"I do not know the laws and what falls under what category and what is specifically restricted for export and what is not. I will say this...Make sure you understand the law and follow it. The purpose of those laws is to keep weapons technology out of the wrong hands. I am sure whoever you are wanting to gift it to is not an issue....but what happens if it is stolen and used for something bad."

...is a bad idea, then that's fine bud.

I do not question your credentials you claim. You stated about 10 posts earlier exactly what you did for work in the post and I did not miss that. I also know that on the internet people hide behind their avatar, blur their faces in their pictures and never state their name and where they work. Just because you have credentials, which I have not said you did not, doesn't mean it still isn't a good idea to follow what a random person on the internet says. I also know arrogance and I know keyboard warriors who treat people like they are idiots when they are behind their computer screen, but wouldn't treat people like that anywhere else.

 

[YancyW]

We completely agree on what is in quotations..

The point in all that followed is understanding that a scope is not an ITAR regulated item (the vast majority of scopes never were ITAR regulated to begin with.. but regulation reform has taken them all out of ITAR at this point) is easy to discern and that there are numerous ways to validate this information if anyone cares to confirm it, that are equally easy to pursue..

Your first post wasnt attacked... the incorrect information you provided was corrected.. by someone that that is knowledgeable of ITAR as well as the other 4 primary regulatory bodies and agencies in the US that control export of everything ranging from financial instruments to weapons systems..

I have shipped literally thousands of firearms, millions of rounds, a thousand or more encrypted radio sets, hundreds of sets of Gen III and Gen IV night vision, thermals, close to a hundred armored vehicles, components for military aircraft, sensitive IT equipment, and a host of other things... to the middle east, Africa, Central America, and SW Asia over the past 20 years... and have been hired by more than a couple of Defense Services and Defense Materials firms to help them establish an export controls program as a consultant, while at the same time running a global defense services firm that is currently operating in 16 countries on behalf of the US government... and am personally known to dozens of people on this site... and was @'d by another member to intentionally make me aware of this thread and bring me into the discussion.... but clearly I have no clue about ITAR ..

Not that a resume drop should be necessary at this point... but a little situational awareness goes a long way...

Next someone will be trying to argue with @Red Leg about field artillery...

So you are saying you can get me a smoking deal on a surplus M1165 with a turbo-diesel....

 

[mdwest]

I also know arrogance and I know keyboard warriors who treat people like they are idiots when they are behind their computer screen, but wouldn't treat people like that anywhere else.

Once again confirming a lack of situational awareness...

Reread prior posts about the dozens of people on this forum that are personal friends and/or that reasonably well known to me...

My online persona isn’t different than who I am in person...

The truth is in person, I'd probably buy you a beer... and still correct you if you make incorrect statements or start verging into a territory that you are clearly uninformed on... and have no expectation that you would be offended...

No different than I rarely get offended when I am corrected for dumbassery when I commit it..

Feel free to reach out to a few and confirm (it’s not hard to figure out who some of these people are)...

And keyboard warrior name calling... well, that’s laughable.. (for anyone with any situational awareness at all)...

 

[mdwest]

So you are saying you can get me a smoking deal on a surplus M1165 with a turbo-diesel....

A smoking deal? No...

Get it delivered to your home in Missouri from a location in Serbia?

I probably know a guy....

 

[Corey0372]

A quick google search will also tell you that people have been sentenced for decades in federal prison for ITAR violations. Should he just assume if he misinterprets an esoteric law that he will just get fined? Would a prosecution in federal court resulting in "just" a fine be not a big deal because no prison time? Should he assume if he does something illegal and gets caught that the prosecutor will take it easy on him? The bigger question: is it worth the risk?

Is the risk worth it to him just because some arrogant guy on an African hunting website told him everything would be ok because he googled it too and found a law firm's website ans can rattle off his claim to fame of knowing a few guys' names and some facts about an obscure federal agency? "But judge, the guy on Africahunting.com said I was just exercising my freedom. Judge, he said even googled it!"

Another consideration: Do you think a potential violation of ITAR by an American hunter hunting in Africa is good for American hunters and African operators? Would something like that help our sport? Would something like this make it potentially easier or harder to take weapons out of the country to hunt?

The OP has already opened himself up to scrutiny by posting this. Bringing a possible ITAR item and leaving it in Africa would probably have been unnoticed but still a pretty big risk. Advertising it on a hunting website won't make going unnoticed easier.

Is it worth the risk? Is doing something you need help from a specialized lawyer to make sure is ok...and then if the item falls under ITAR needing explicit authorization from the U.S. Department of State to legally gift to a foreign national really worth doing? Would he be somehow giving up some crucial part of his freedom if he was somehow able to gift it legally, but either excersized caution or didn't want to consult a lawyer, as you suggested, to find out?

Dude, I didn't open myself up to any scrutiny, you're being a bit dramatic.

What laws have I broken? What laws did I say I was going to break? Don't try to insinuate actions I did or DID NOT take, or will or will not take when given information. You've literally already played out some worst case scenario in your head where I'm pleading with a judge for my freedoms. I almost thought you were trolling, seriously. I deal with ITAR stuff as a part of my job as well, in a past life myself and one other team member stood while a foreign government checked our weapons rosters and the pallet of guns we had line by line serial number by serial number. I get it, you have to be squared away.

I also wasn't born yesterday. I totally understand what consequences for your actions are, and how to research things to make sure you're getting accurate information. What do you think the purpose of my post was? I was looking to get some guidance on where to look for the most up to date and accurate information on the topic I brought up, and to do it in a manner that others could learn from. And for the most part, I think the constructive input from guys like @mdwest , and even some of the other anecdotal situations other guys brought up, was very helpful. That's part of what the internet is for. Nobody in this thread advocated breaking any laws, on the contrary, the guy in the thread who's an actual SME prefaced his guidance by pointing to legal documents as well as the proper government channels to go through. This is exactly what I was hoping to achieve with the thread.

The combined experience on this website probably couldn't even be quantified if you tried. Have you never walked into a gun shop, mechanic shop, butcher shop, etc. and asked for a bit of guidance on something related to that persons expertise? If you don't know where to find a specific guideline on a fly fishing regulation you know where you could probably go to get pointed in the right direction? A FLY FISHING SHOP! Have you never gone to a subject matter expert for help on something? This website is more than just retired dudes posting pictures of trips they take (no offence to the retired dudes taking pictures of their trips). This place is a wealth of knowledge, and perhaps even potentially a place for change. What if taking scopes overseas was COMPLETELY OUTLAWED, you know where a good place to start a grassroots movement to pass legislation to change that would be? Places like this website.

@mdwest and others who have added valuable input, thanks a lot and I'm grateful for your help in this matter

 

[npm352]

Dude, I didn't open myself up to any scrutiny, you're being a bit dramatic.

What laws have I broken? What laws did I say I was going to break? Don't try to insinuate actions I did or DID NOT take, or will or will not take when given information. You've literally already played out some worst case scenario in your head where I'm pleading with a judge for my freedoms. I almost thought you were trolling, seriously. I deal with ITAR stuff as a part of my job as well, in a past life myself and one other team member stood while a foreign government checked our weapons rosters and the pallet of guns we had line by line serial number by serial number. I get it, you have to be squared away.

I also wasn't born yesterday. I totally understand what consequences for your actions are, and how to research things to make sure you're getting accurate information. What do you think the purpose of my post was? I was looking to get some guidance on where to look for the most up to date and accurate information on the topic I brought up, and to do it in a manner that others could learn from. And for the most part, I think the constructive input from guys like @mdwest , and even some of the other anecdotal situations other guys brought up, was very helpful. That's part of what the internet is for. Nobody in this thread advocated breaking any laws, on the contrary, the guy in the thread who's an actual SME prefaced his guidance by pointing to legal documents as well as the proper government channels to go through. This is exactly what I was hoping to achieve with the thread.

The combined experience on this website probably couldn't even be quantified if you tried. Have you never walked into a gun shop, mechanic shop, butcher shop, etc. and asked for a bit of guidance on something related to that persons expertise? If you don't know where to find a specific guideline on a fly fishing regulation you know where you could probably go to get pointed in the right direction? A FLY FISHING SHOP! Have you never gone to a subject matter expert for help on something? This website is more than just retired dudes posting pictures of trips they take (no offence to the retired dudes taking pictures of their trips). This place is a wealth of knowledge, and perhaps even potentially a place for change. What if taking scopes overseas was COMPLETELY OUTLAWED, you know where a good place to start a grassroots movement to pass legislation to change that would be? Places like this website.

@mdwest and others who have added valuable input, thanks a lot and I'm grateful for your help in this matter

Dude, I read your thread title. It says, "Taking ITAR controlled scopes into countries as a gift."

I didn't read the thread. I assumed your scope fell under ITAR as the title stated. I write a quick post, similar to others that says: (1) I know nothing about ITAR other than it is a federal deal (2) make sure know the law from those who enforce it, and (3) getting legal advice from an internet forum is generally not a great idea.

A few minutes later I am an idiot for suggesting you ask those enforcing the law to clarify it...am somehow living in a perpetual state of being terrified by ITAR ...and not enjoying freedom because of it.... and need to use only iron sights on my next safari (which coincidentally I am, but not because I am sitting in a corner wrapped in a blanket sweaty and shaking because of my fear of ITAR).

 

[mdwest]

I didn't read the thread. I assumed....

I know nothing about ITAR other than it is a federal deal

I'd say those are a couple of self-admitted critical errors...