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The “458 Winchester Magnum, all the cartridge you’ll ever need” thread
- Thread starter Northern Shooter
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michael458
AH fanatic
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Thanks @michael458
That's a pretty clear answer.
I see you tested the Rhino solids, their performance seems good?
That's a pretty clear answer.
I see you tested the Rhino solids, their performance seems good?
Riflecrank
AH enthusiast
Thanks for that,
Doc M/Michael458,
saved me from digging through your "Bullet Tech."
Is that the 0.600" Nose Projection on the 400-gr/.458 CEB SS BBW#13 ?
I doubt adding the extra NP to 0.700" would make much difference,
but that was a much appreciated improvement for my purposes: .458 WinMag/.458 WM+/.458 B&M+
I was going to look for the 500-gr/.458 CEB SS BBW#13 also.
Have you ever tested that one ?
Amazing how well the 325-gr/.458 CEB SS BBW#13 works for such a lightweight,
and at such a high velocity, 2572 fps MV, 2472 fps impact velocity at 22 yards:
52" STRAIGHT
If that is possible with the 325-grainer at 2572 fps MV,
methinks the 400-grainer at higher velocity would beat its result at 2302 fps MV/2206 impact velocity at 25 yards:
53" STRAIGHT
My standard load for that 400-gr CEB brass FN is a little bit over 2500 fps in the .458 WinMag
at only 3.35" COL in Norma brass, 78.0 grains BENCHMARK, F215/GM215M primer.
I think it will do better than 53", heh-heh-heh.
I base this on the fact that the 325-grainer did so well at such a high velocity,
and the new 0.700" NP 400-grainer will have greater momentum (considerably greater)
as well as that longer Nose Projection, and the same design in brass FN meplat, BBW#13.
I think you have taught me all I need to know with your tests.
As busy as you are, I would hate to ask for more.
Thanks again for all you have done to advance the science of terminal ballistics.
Doc M/Michael458,
saved me from digging through your "Bullet Tech."
Is that the 0.600" Nose Projection on the 400-gr/.458 CEB SS BBW#13 ?
I doubt adding the extra NP to 0.700" would make much difference,
but that was a much appreciated improvement for my purposes: .458 WinMag/.458 WM+/.458 B&M+
I was going to look for the 500-gr/.458 CEB SS BBW#13 also.
Have you ever tested that one ?
Amazing how well the 325-gr/.458 CEB SS BBW#13 works for such a lightweight,
and at such a high velocity, 2572 fps MV, 2472 fps impact velocity at 22 yards:
52" STRAIGHT
If that is possible with the 325-grainer at 2572 fps MV,
methinks the 400-grainer at higher velocity would beat its result at 2302 fps MV/2206 impact velocity at 25 yards:
53" STRAIGHT
My standard load for that 400-gr CEB brass FN is a little bit over 2500 fps in the .458 WinMag
at only 3.35" COL in Norma brass, 78.0 grains BENCHMARK, F215/GM215M primer.
I think it will do better than 53", heh-heh-heh.
I base this on the fact that the 325-grainer did so well at such a high velocity,
and the new 0.700" NP 400-grainer will have greater momentum (considerably greater)
as well as that longer Nose Projection, and the same design in brass FN meplat, BBW#13.
I think you have taught me all I need to know with your tests.
As busy as you are, I would hate to ask for more.
Thanks again for all you have done to advance the science of terminal ballistics.
Riflecrank
AH enthusiast
Now the fun begins with this nattering naybob of Lottism.
If the SAAMI .458 Lott is loaded to 62,500 psi and 3.60" COL with a 500-gr bullet: 2250 fps MV
and the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum is loaded to 60,000 psi with 500-gr bullet: 2200 fps MV
The SAAMI .458 Lott has only a 50 fps MV advantage over the lower-pressured SAAMI .458 WinMag.
If you get the Lott down to 2200 fps, it is still going to have a higher pressure than the
60,000 psi MAP of the SAAMI .458 WinMag,
and it will have to burn more powder and recoil more to do it.
The Lottite panties get wadded and wedged everytime they learn this.
How could this be ?
It is because of the difference in throating.
Tight and short in the .458 Lott.
The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum is a longer cartridge than the the SAAMI .458 Lott.
It takes a longer length of cutting reamer to chamber the .458 WM than the .458 L.
The only way the .458 Loser can compete with the .458 Winner is if a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer is used to extend the throat of the SAAMI .458 Lott.
It cleans up the SAAMI .458 Lott throat completely, swallowed up by the terminal leade of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum
Then you have a ".458 Lott Special" like Jack built.
Federal publishes load data for use with their 500-gr/.458 Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solid.
The COL is 3.275", for a SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum with 24" barrel.
The pressure is no more than 60,000 psi.
Propellant: 77.1 grains of Alliant Power Pro Varmint
Primer: F215
MV = 2213 fps
Propellant: 65.6 grains of Alliant Power Pro 1200-R
Primer: F215
MV = 2089 fps.
OH BOY. I can get kicked harder at same or higher pressure by burning more powder in a .458 Lott.
And I can be slower and more likely to short-stroke a longer action while absorbing the greater recoil.
Is not the .458 Win (as in winner) absolutely the better choice ?
If you want more kick than you can get out of the SAAMI .458 Lott
just use a .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge loaded long and single load it into your Short Action Magnum.
Or use it through the magazine of your Long Action SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
Beware, such .458 WM+ loads may be unsafe in the .458 Lott with its shorter chamber+throat overall length.
Some .458 WM+ loads will not even fit into a SAAMI .458 Lott.
THROAT THROAT THROAT
PHYSICS DOES NOT LIE
One of my favorite ironies of the .458 Loser is that it most commonly uses cartridge brass
that has been stretched by 0.3" to fit into a magazine-repeating-rifle that has only been stretched by 0.2".
Irony is the highest form of humor.
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Riflecrank
AH enthusiast
Beware the .458 Lott test data that claims to be from a SAAMI .458 Lott
but is actually from a .458 Lott Special with a longer throat.
That can be misleading.
but is actually from a .458 Lott Special with a longer throat.
That can be misleading.
Stock shape helps as much with recoil mitigation IMO as reasonable differences in weight of the rifle. I was asked to sight in two rifles which had pummeled the owner so much that he just couldn't finish the job. One was a 375 in a Ruger #1, the other a 458 WM in a German gun with a hog-backed stock. Guess which one noticeable kicked harder?...(the Ruger)
Ruraldoc
AH fanatic
By Brno 602 was originally a 458 Win mag but the chamber was lengthened for the 458 Lott.
So I have the longer 458 cartridge chamber of the Lott with longer throat of the 458 Win Mag.
And the action is long enough to accommodate any bullet seating depth that will chamber.
Win,win,win.
The advantage of using the Lott case in Brno 602s and CZ 550s is that the cartridges are properly sized for the magazine length.
The Win Mag case is shorter and can move around under recoil and can create a jam at precisely the wrong time with factory ammo.
If you are going to shoot factory 458 Win mags in the Brno/CZ, it’s a good idea to shorten the follower and mag well.
The 458 win mag makes the most sense in a Model 70 that has the proper magazine and follower for it.
So loading a 458 win mag to the longer 3.6 inch length won’t work in a Ruger M77 458 win or a factory Winchester M70 .
Loading the 458 Win mag to the overall length of the 458 Lott requires precisely the right magazine length and chamber specs to pull it off. Not every rifle will do it without modifications.
The 458 Lott ammo in a properly chambered rifle is the easiest way to beat Win mag performance.
But as we have discussed ad nauseum, the 458 win mag with modern factory ammo is entirely adequate without jumping through all the hoops of handloads and/or modifications to factory rifles.
So I have the longer 458 cartridge chamber of the Lott with longer throat of the 458 Win Mag.
And the action is long enough to accommodate any bullet seating depth that will chamber.
Win,win,win.
The advantage of using the Lott case in Brno 602s and CZ 550s is that the cartridges are properly sized for the magazine length.
The Win Mag case is shorter and can move around under recoil and can create a jam at precisely the wrong time with factory ammo.
If you are going to shoot factory 458 Win mags in the Brno/CZ, it’s a good idea to shorten the follower and mag well.
The 458 win mag makes the most sense in a Model 70 that has the proper magazine and follower for it.
So loading a 458 win mag to the longer 3.6 inch length won’t work in a Ruger M77 458 win or a factory Winchester M70 .
Loading the 458 Win mag to the overall length of the 458 Lott requires precisely the right magazine length and chamber specs to pull it off. Not every rifle will do it without modifications.
The 458 Lott ammo in a properly chambered rifle is the easiest way to beat Win mag performance.
But as we have discussed ad nauseum, the 458 win mag with modern factory ammo is entirely adequate without jumping through all the hoops of handloads and/or modifications to factory rifles.
Riflecrank
AH enthusiast
Ruraldoc's pronouncements commented upon by me, if I may be so bold:
Rd: By Brno 602 was originally a 458 Win mag but the chamber was lengthened for the 458 Lott.
So I have the longer 458 cartridge chamber of the Lott with longer throat of the 458 Win Mag.
Congratulations ! You have a .458 Lott Special.
And the action is long enough to accommodate any bullet seating depth that will chamber.
Indeed ! the cartridge now runs in a magazine length that was stretched 0.2" longer than for the most common .458 Lott action, H&H length.
You now have similar degrees of freedom as using the .458 WinMag in an H&H length magazine.
Win,win,win.
Not so fast ! Pun intended.
The longer bolt throw makes you slower in rapid fire, and the greater possibility of a jam from short stroking cannot be ignored.
However, the greater recoil is mitigated by the extra weight of the rifle required.
But that is a slightly heavier and less handy rifle. The greatest bags of elephant conservation culling by African game wardens were achieved with a standard M98 and the .458 WinMag, and the wardens have spoken of the magic-wand-like qualities of such a rifle. Such individuals have bags numbering 6,000 to 7,000 elephants. "But what's a few thousand elephants among friends?" So said one of them.
Another one of them even used a .505 Gibbs later in life, but still recommended the M98 .458 WinMag as best. Wise man.
The advantage of using the Lott case in Brno 602s and CZ 550s is that the cartridges are properly sized for the magazine length.
No. The magazine is a +3.8" length for a -3.6" cartridge. About like using a 30-06-length cartridge(-3.4") in a .375 H&H-length (+3.6") action.
The Win Mag case is shorter and can move around under recoil and can create a jam at precisely the wrong time with factory ammo.
It's far better with a 3.34" COL .458 WinMag cartridge in the 3.4" magazine box, than with a
3.60" cartridge in a 3.8" box. You should only use .458 WinMag ammo in a .458 Lott in a pinch,
if you have lost your ammo in transit and can't find anything but .458 WinMag ammo, much easier to find in most places than .458 Lott, which is also more expensive if you can find it.
Firing .458 WinMag ammo in a SAAMI .458 Lott chamber will lose about 50 fps, and expose your Lott chamber to roughening from powder burn and abrasion, and probably not be as accurate.
The .458 Lott Special will probably lose even more MV from the .458 WinMag ammo.
Do that only in hardship cases, i.e., you have nothing else and must find some ammo.
If you are going to shoot factory 458 Win mags in the Brno/CZ, it’s a good idea to shorten the follower and mag well.
See above, about abusing .458 WinMag ammo in a .458 Lott rifle, and in your +3.8" mag box you have work to do to optimize it for the .458 Lott.
Or just use long COL habitually since you have a .458 Lott Special.
It will handle the same length cartridges as the .458 Winchester SAAMI chamber.
I crimp a 2.5" case on the fifth/bottom cannelure of a 500-grain Barnes TSX bullet for a COL of 3.76".
That's perfect for a CZ 550 Magnum/BRNO ZKK 602.
I have one of the CZ 550 Magnums in .458 WinMag with Shilen 25" barrel (SAAMI chambering) as well as a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 re-barreled with a take-off CZ barrel, .458 WinMag, 24-7/8" length after the swap, with rethreading, 1/8" setback and re-chambering.
My 3.76" COL 500-gr TSX load goes +2340 fps from either barrel. Magazine fed in the CZ, single loaded in the M70, with 2.5" brass cases. There is plenty of seating depth with that long bullet and a strong crimp in the TSX groove-cannelure, even at 3.76" COL. Long bullet.
The 458 win mag makes the most sense in a Model 70 that has the proper magazine and follower for it.
DUH !
So loading a 458 win mag to the longer 3.6 inch length won’t work in a Ruger M77 458 win or a factory Winchester M70 .
Both can be easily modified to do so. I have done it myself to a Winchester M70 Classic from Connecticut. Unblock the box at rear, and shorten the bolt stop and ejector for properly timed ejection. Proper follower. Ejection port of action needs no modification.
I would need to find or fabricate the proper sheet metal box and find a follower for the Ruger M77 MK II/Hawkeye (.375 H&H length).
Loading the 458 Win mag to the overall length of the 458 Lott requires precisely the right magazine length and chamber specs to pull it off. Not every rifle will do it without modifications.
A bit of hogwash here. Any rifle that will not chamber it is not a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
A shorter throat makes it a .458 Winchester Special.
Any standard SAAMI .458 WinMag that is within specs can beat the SAAMI .458 Lott by single loading off the top of the magazine to a longer COL than the SAAMI .458 Lott chamber will accept.
I like the idea of carrying 404-gr Hammer bullets loaded to 3.28", 3.38", 3.48" or 3.58" COL (2500 to 2600 fps), or my 3.76" 500-gr TSX loads (2340 fps) in an ammo carrier on butt to add some weight to my lithe and lively rifles. Plains game loads. Keep the magazine full of standard SAAMI loads for the .458 WinMag.
The 458 Lott ammo in a properly chambered rifle is the easiest way to beat Win mag performance.
Not that anyone needs more than "Win mag performance" but the .458 WM+(long COL .458 WinMag) beats SAAMI .458 Lott. So does your .458 Lott Special.
But as we have discussed ad nauseum, the 458 win mag with modern factory ammo is entirely adequate without jumping through all the hoops of handloads and/or modifications to factory rifles.
The .458 Winchester Magnum with modern factory ammo is more than adequate.
It is the best you can get off the shelf, overall,
and it is total OVERKILL if you handload.
Also, sorry for your nausea, but mind you, some of us love jumping through handloading hoops, and no modifications of a factory SAAMI-satisfying .458 Winchester Magnum is necessary except for making sure it does not break its stock from beating the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Rd: By Brno 602 was originally a 458 Win mag but the chamber was lengthened for the 458 Lott.
So I have the longer 458 cartridge chamber of the Lott with longer throat of the 458 Win Mag.
Congratulations ! You have a .458 Lott Special.
And the action is long enough to accommodate any bullet seating depth that will chamber.
Indeed ! the cartridge now runs in a magazine length that was stretched 0.2" longer than for the most common .458 Lott action, H&H length.
You now have similar degrees of freedom as using the .458 WinMag in an H&H length magazine.
Win,win,win.
Not so fast ! Pun intended.
The longer bolt throw makes you slower in rapid fire, and the greater possibility of a jam from short stroking cannot be ignored.
However, the greater recoil is mitigated by the extra weight of the rifle required.
But that is a slightly heavier and less handy rifle. The greatest bags of elephant conservation culling by African game wardens were achieved with a standard M98 and the .458 WinMag, and the wardens have spoken of the magic-wand-like qualities of such a rifle. Such individuals have bags numbering 6,000 to 7,000 elephants. "But what's a few thousand elephants among friends?" So said one of them.
Another one of them even used a .505 Gibbs later in life, but still recommended the M98 .458 WinMag as best. Wise man.
The advantage of using the Lott case in Brno 602s and CZ 550s is that the cartridges are properly sized for the magazine length.
No. The magazine is a +3.8" length for a -3.6" cartridge. About like using a 30-06-length cartridge(-3.4") in a .375 H&H-length (+3.6") action.
The Win Mag case is shorter and can move around under recoil and can create a jam at precisely the wrong time with factory ammo.
It's far better with a 3.34" COL .458 WinMag cartridge in the 3.4" magazine box, than with a
3.60" cartridge in a 3.8" box. You should only use .458 WinMag ammo in a .458 Lott in a pinch,
if you have lost your ammo in transit and can't find anything but .458 WinMag ammo, much easier to find in most places than .458 Lott, which is also more expensive if you can find it.
Firing .458 WinMag ammo in a SAAMI .458 Lott chamber will lose about 50 fps, and expose your Lott chamber to roughening from powder burn and abrasion, and probably not be as accurate.
The .458 Lott Special will probably lose even more MV from the .458 WinMag ammo.
Do that only in hardship cases, i.e., you have nothing else and must find some ammo.
If you are going to shoot factory 458 Win mags in the Brno/CZ, it’s a good idea to shorten the follower and mag well.
See above, about abusing .458 WinMag ammo in a .458 Lott rifle, and in your +3.8" mag box you have work to do to optimize it for the .458 Lott.
Or just use long COL habitually since you have a .458 Lott Special.
It will handle the same length cartridges as the .458 Winchester SAAMI chamber.
I crimp a 2.5" case on the fifth/bottom cannelure of a 500-grain Barnes TSX bullet for a COL of 3.76".
That's perfect for a CZ 550 Magnum/BRNO ZKK 602.
I have one of the CZ 550 Magnums in .458 WinMag with Shilen 25" barrel (SAAMI chambering) as well as a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 re-barreled with a take-off CZ barrel, .458 WinMag, 24-7/8" length after the swap, with rethreading, 1/8" setback and re-chambering.
My 3.76" COL 500-gr TSX load goes +2340 fps from either barrel. Magazine fed in the CZ, single loaded in the M70, with 2.5" brass cases. There is plenty of seating depth with that long bullet and a strong crimp in the TSX groove-cannelure, even at 3.76" COL. Long bullet.
The 458 win mag makes the most sense in a Model 70 that has the proper magazine and follower for it.
DUH !
So loading a 458 win mag to the longer 3.6 inch length won’t work in a Ruger M77 458 win or a factory Winchester M70 .
Both can be easily modified to do so. I have done it myself to a Winchester M70 Classic from Connecticut. Unblock the box at rear, and shorten the bolt stop and ejector for properly timed ejection. Proper follower. Ejection port of action needs no modification.
I would need to find or fabricate the proper sheet metal box and find a follower for the Ruger M77 MK II/Hawkeye (.375 H&H length).
Loading the 458 Win mag to the overall length of the 458 Lott requires precisely the right magazine length and chamber specs to pull it off. Not every rifle will do it without modifications.
A bit of hogwash here. Any rifle that will not chamber it is not a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
A shorter throat makes it a .458 Winchester Special.
Any standard SAAMI .458 WinMag that is within specs can beat the SAAMI .458 Lott by single loading off the top of the magazine to a longer COL than the SAAMI .458 Lott chamber will accept.
I like the idea of carrying 404-gr Hammer bullets loaded to 3.28", 3.38", 3.48" or 3.58" COL (2500 to 2600 fps), or my 3.76" 500-gr TSX loads (2340 fps) in an ammo carrier on butt to add some weight to my lithe and lively rifles. Plains game loads. Keep the magazine full of standard SAAMI loads for the .458 WinMag.
The 458 Lott ammo in a properly chambered rifle is the easiest way to beat Win mag performance.
Not that anyone needs more than "Win mag performance" but the .458 WM+(long COL .458 WinMag) beats SAAMI .458 Lott. So does your .458 Lott Special.
But as we have discussed ad nauseum, the 458 win mag with modern factory ammo is entirely adequate without jumping through all the hoops of handloads and/or modifications to factory rifles.
The .458 Winchester Magnum with modern factory ammo is more than adequate.
It is the best you can get off the shelf, overall,
and it is total OVERKILL if you handload.
Also, sorry for your nausea, but mind you, some of us love jumping through handloading hoops, and no modifications of a factory SAAMI-satisfying .458 Winchester Magnum is necessary except for making sure it does not break its stock from beating the SAAMI .458 Lott.
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michael458
AH fanatic
Yes, that was our first version with the .600 nose projection......... I don't think there is much difference in the two nose projections beyond .600..... This puts the bubble collapsing behind the base so as to not create drag at .600 or .700...... My thoughts anyway.
No, I have never tested the 500s. The 450s were just so good, and did everything required of them I personally never saw a need or requirement for the 500s. I told Dan as much at the time, but he was wiser than myself when it came to sales, some folks just had to have the 500s and could not accept that bullet tech had advanced to the point that heavy or SD was just not needed. The 450s are so good in this respect that I have all .458s regardless of case capacity using the 450s. They have proven themselves many times on all the heavies time after time.
The little 325 #13 is amazing, designed for my 458 Super Shorts it has tremendous capabilities. Our good friend tested one on a large bull elephant frontal shot, and it more than did the job, and exited rear of the head recovered after 6 ft of elephant........ While not a .458, my Son Mark David took a medium bull elephant with his 475 Super Short and 350 gr #13 solid, side brain at 10 steps, and that also exited far side........
The #13 Nose profile reacts very good to added velocity to a point for sure, and yes, I believe the 400s would reap benefits from added velocity. It is also my gut feeling that the 400 needs to be tested again at some point, I would have expected somewhere around 56 inches with it.
There are two vastly superior solid designs, and nothing can come close to either of them, the CEB #13 and the (To Me) New Design North Forks. And you can see how close the Nose Profile is. We have conducted 1000s of Solid tests here, literally. In addition, after the design was final, they went to the field and tested extensively.
For those that may not know, @Riflecrank has done extensive study and work with 458 Winchester and getting the most and more from it than any person on the planet. Including 1000s of test loads, and 1000s of hours of range time. In this area of study he is at the Front of The Class, and the rest of us are just trying to keep up. We have known each other for many years, we have worked on many projects together. His work and dedication to the work has advanced big bore technology light years ahead of where it was. Thank you @Riflecrank .
odonata
AH senior member
+1 on this. The reason a 458 Win Mag anchors the top end of my rifle collection is because @Riflecrank was kind enough to answer an endless stream of questions over a period of several months. I also liked that he didn't just give opinions: Everything is backed up by in-field testing, charts & photos. It is difficult to argue with a man who is pointing at quantifiable data that you can verify for yourself.
Cheesehead
AH veteran
Looking at all the photos @michael458 posted, I'm amazed at the performance difference between the 500 grain DGS and the 480 grain DGS. Who would have thought the extra 20 grains would make such an improvement. Of course, neither DGS comes close to the performance of the CEB and North Fork solids. I am curious how the Barnes banded solid would compare at slower 458 win mag velocities.
Ruraldoc
AH fanatic
The only thing that @Riflecrank writes that doesn’t make sense to me is that he talks about carrying ammo with bullets loaded to two different lengths. One to function through the 30-06 length of a standard 458 magazine, an another longer, more powerful load that must be single loaded into the chamber because it will not fit in the magazine.
Carrying two types of ammo, or four if we are talking softs and solids, some of which will not fit in the magazine of my rifle, sounds like a recipe for disaster on a dangerous game hunt.
It’s actually the opposite of what I’m contemplating, carrying a 458 win mag in the chamber for less recoil and a magazine full of 458 Lott for maximum reliability in feeding.
But both rounds will go in my magazine or chamber in a pinch.
Carrying two types of ammo, or four if we are talking softs and solids, some of which will not fit in the magazine of my rifle, sounds like a recipe for disaster on a dangerous game hunt.
It’s actually the opposite of what I’m contemplating, carrying a 458 win mag in the chamber for less recoil and a magazine full of 458 Lott for maximum reliability in feeding.
But both rounds will go in my magazine or chamber in a pinch.
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michael458
AH fanatic
I think it has more to do with stability than SD. I can't recall, but there was something about the 480s, it might have been a slightly smaller meplat, but I am not 100% sure of that right now, its been a few years, forgive me please. But the 480 does present stability issues, I tested it several times back then to confirm. The 500s are not all that stable either, I tested those several times, and on occasion they did ok, or better, then next time, worse...... The meplat size is too small on those. They did the smaller meplat so it would feed in less than desirable actions. It was always a aggravation to me to lower design standards of the bullet to feed in cheap ass rifles! You know, you really need to count on that bullet when in the field! The Bullet does all the heavy work! To lower design standards for the sake of selling more bullets so they feed in cheaper actions never set well with me.
It would not be much different, maybe a couple inches at the most, still way more than enough to accomplish any mission asked of it. The Barnes Flat Nose solids in .458 caliber and plus are actually a very good design. The meplat on these bullets is 65% of caliber, and that means they will actually self stabilize during terminal penetration. The nose profile comes up short in a few areas such as reaction to added velocity as for depth of penetration, but the nose profile is also very strong when encountering heavy bone. I used the Barnes FN in 458 calibers before the CEB and North Fork designs on buffalo, hippo and elephant with great success. In those days I liked the 450 FN Solid for cartridges such as 458 Winchester and 458 B&M. I can't find photos now of the 450 Barnes FN tests, but I very much remember it was always a dead steady 57-58 inches at 2200-2250 fps. Now Barnes pulled a few tricks in the day too, to feed in cheaper rifles. In a few of the lesser calibers they also used a lesser meplat, and those tested horrible, I would not have counted on those to exit impala broadside they were so unstable. The one that comes to mind quickly is the 9.3 Solid, it was awful and lost stability completely at or around 12-14 inches of penetration. One of the worst solids I ever tested.
People, you don't need 500 gr bullets to make 458 caliber work.......... You need to catch up with Bullet Technology, not only with Solids, but Trauma Inflicting bullets as well.
I have owned many 458 Winchesters over the years and used them in the field a lot. I always had a favorite early Control feed gun 22 inch Winchester M70. Because of it, I fell in love with 458 caliber. I moved on to my own 458 B&M, which is a much smaller platform, but equal to 458 WInchester. Over the years I made mistakes and sold all the 458 Wins but the one 22 inch gun. A year or so ago I found myself needing another 458 Winchester, so I picked up a 24 inch current Winchesrter M70 and had the barrel cut down to 20 inches. @Riflecrank and I did a lot of Pressure data, load data and work with that gun at the time and I am so happy with it. Using good bullet tech, you are not handicapped at 20 inches at all........... Plain Jane Winchester M70 20 inch 458 Winchester.......
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Mort Hill
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At this juncture on page 3 of this thread, I just want to thank all you fine folks for contributing your facts, thoughts, and opinions. My knowledge of my .458 WM has increased ten fold just by taking the time to not only read, but understand what has been posted. This thread is one of the EXACT reasons I belong to the AH community! 
Nhoro
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My CZ 550 started life as a 458 win mag. It went in for work on the front sight and the smith offered to ream it to a Lott for free. So I have the long lead of the win mag + lott chamber. I used to load win mag ammo long because the rifle feeds better with a longer OAL using 450 gr, 480 gr Peregrines and 480 gr Hornady bullets. All were accurate and around 2170 to 2200 fps. I now load 515 gr peregrines at about 2190 fps with Lott cases. So pretty much win mag specs but I can use a variety of powders. Here in zim it helps to be a bit more flexible. OAL is very similar between my Win Mag and Lott loads and so is powder usage and accuracy. I happily use both. If I had a winchester or smaller actioned win mag, I would not bother with a lott but it does make sense to me in the CZ 550 or Brno 602, just fits the action and magazine better.
As for rifle weight and recoil, I think balancing your rifle helps. I took a couple of win mag cases, filled them with lead and drilled 11 mm holes in the butt of my rifle under the recoil pad. That added about 1/2 a pound of weight and made my rifle better balanced. I think it is 9 3/4 pounds with open sights and empty magazine. Balance and extra weight made it feel better even if recoil is probably pretty similar. I have the standard CZ setup, 25 " barrel. I adjusted the trigger so that the hair trigger is disabled and refinished the stock.
As for rifle weight and recoil, I think balancing your rifle helps. I took a couple of win mag cases, filled them with lead and drilled 11 mm holes in the butt of my rifle under the recoil pad. That added about 1/2 a pound of weight and made my rifle better balanced. I think it is 9 3/4 pounds with open sights and empty magazine. Balance and extra weight made it feel better even if recoil is probably pretty similar. I have the standard CZ setup, 25 " barrel. I adjusted the trigger so that the hair trigger is disabled and refinished the stock.
Riflecrank
AH enthusiast
Michael458 is exaggerating a bit about my status as the world's leading expert on the history and handloading of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Heh-heh-heh.
However, it is no exaggeration to say that Michael458 is in the same League of Extraordinary Gentleman as Chuck Norris and Donald Trump.
Legendary.
However, it is no exaggeration to say that Michael458 is in the same League of Extraordinary Gentleman as Chuck Norris and Donald Trump.
Legendary.
Cheesehead
AH veteran
Now that you mention it, it does look like the meplat on the 480 is smaller than the 500. It makes sense that neither penetrates as well as any of the solids with a larger meplat.
I'm a total noob, so I apologize if you have answered this question before. At what depth of penetration in your test medium did you consider enough?
Riflecrank
AH enthusiast
Ruraldoc, are you in Orthopedic Surgery or OB/GYN ?
For the residency training match after medical school, they take the bottom 10% of the class
and those who can bench press their own weight go into orthopedics, and those who cannot go into OB/GYN.
Maybe you are smarter than that ?
Ruraldoc said: "The only thing that @Riflecrank writes that doesn’t make sense to me is that he talks about carrying ammo with bullets loaded to two different lengths. One to function through the 30-06 length of a standard 458 magazine, an another longer, more powerful load that must be single loaded into the chamber because it will not fit in the magazine.
Carrying two types of ammo, or four if we are talking softs and solids, some of which will not fit in the magazine of my rifle, sounds like a recipe for disaster on a dangerous game hunt.
It’s actually the opposite of what I’m contemplating, carrying a 458 win mag in the chamber for less recoil and a magazine full of 458 Lott for maximum reliability in feeding.
But both rounds will go in my magazine or chamber in a pinch."
Well we are making progress. Only one thing, eh ?
Do not complicate it.
KISS Principle.
Only two loads.
1. The Brass FN solid of choice in the magazine: CEB brass FN of 400-gr/2500 fps or 450-gr/2350 fps,
or maybe even the 500-gr TBSS at 3.275" COL and 2200 fps MV from a 24" barrel,
2140 fps from a 20" barrel.
2. The long and pointy soft nose HP on the buttstock:
My choices here are the
404-gr Hammer at 2600 fps/3.48" COL
450-gr TSX at 2400 fps/3.56" COL
500-gr TSX at 2300 fps/3.76" COL
You can even decrease the HP velocities to same as their corresponding weight FN solid if you want them to shoot to same POI.
Or maybe you want to tune it so the FN solid is dead on at 50 yards with express sights or red dot,
and the the HP shoots higher with scope sight.
Regardless of what you decide to use, all combos above can thus be adequate for any DG or PG combo hunt.
I even have a cast bullet combo (FN, PC-painted, gas-checked, BHN 25) of 585-grainer at 1400 fps zeroed at 100 yards
paired with a 410-grainer at 2150 fps that is 4" high at 100 yards with same scope setting.
You now have the new DOUBLE RIFLE.
With the premium hunting bullets it is a precision single shot sniper rifle and a rapid-fire elephant rifle all rolled into one.
A .458 WM+ and a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum to save your bacon at closer range if you muff it with that one shot and get charged, magazine fed speedy as it gets: Make sure your FN bullets feed properly in your rifle.
If the critter is at long range, you have time to reload your .458 WM+ single loader.
Usually the one shot from the .458 WM+ single shot is all it takes.
Actually, the 404-gr Hammer can be loaded to 2600 fps from a 24" barrel by using Norma brass and a 3.38" COL.
That will fit in the usual +3.4" bolt action magazine.
Pair that with the the 400-gr CEB FN at 2500 fps with 3.35" COL.
Voila ! One rifle again, still two loads, still .458 WM+ by exceeding 3.34" COL just a little bit.
With standard brass (W-W, R-P, Federal, Hornady) you would need to either load to COL of 0.100" longer
or knock the velocity down to 2500 fps for the Hammer HP and 2400 fps for the 400-gr CEB brass FN, for magazine loading of both bullets.
I would still be carrying my high-BC, pointy, 404-gr Hammer HPs in an ammo carrier on butt or belt and load them singly. Keep the magazine full of the FN solids to batter away in the box without damage to ammo tip or magazine front wall.
Always be sure to reinforce front wall of box by whatever method you prefer, so no dimpling by bullet noses occurs, due to recoil battering.
I also hear that if a neurosurgeon and a neurologist are getting on an elevator and the door is closing, the neurologist will stick his hand in the closing door to stop it while the neurosurgeon will use his head.
The SAAMI .458 Winchester is like a combination of orthopedic surgeon and neurologist.
Strong and smart.
That makes the SAAMI .458 Lott like a neurosurgeon-obstetrician-gynecologist.
For the residency training match after medical school, they take the bottom 10% of the class
and those who can bench press their own weight go into orthopedics, and those who cannot go into OB/GYN.
Maybe you are smarter than that ?
Ruraldoc said: "The only thing that @Riflecrank writes that doesn’t make sense to me is that he talks about carrying ammo with bullets loaded to two different lengths. One to function through the 30-06 length of a standard 458 magazine, an another longer, more powerful load that must be single loaded into the chamber because it will not fit in the magazine.
Carrying two types of ammo, or four if we are talking softs and solids, some of which will not fit in the magazine of my rifle, sounds like a recipe for disaster on a dangerous game hunt.
It’s actually the opposite of what I’m contemplating, carrying a 458 win mag in the chamber for less recoil and a magazine full of 458 Lott for maximum reliability in feeding.
But both rounds will go in my magazine or chamber in a pinch."
Well we are making progress. Only one thing, eh ?
Do not complicate it.
KISS Principle.
Only two loads.
1. The Brass FN solid of choice in the magazine: CEB brass FN of 400-gr/2500 fps or 450-gr/2350 fps,
or maybe even the 500-gr TBSS at 3.275" COL and 2200 fps MV from a 24" barrel,
2140 fps from a 20" barrel.
2. The long and pointy soft nose HP on the buttstock:
My choices here are the
404-gr Hammer at 2600 fps/3.48" COL
450-gr TSX at 2400 fps/3.56" COL
500-gr TSX at 2300 fps/3.76" COL
You can even decrease the HP velocities to same as their corresponding weight FN solid if you want them to shoot to same POI.
Or maybe you want to tune it so the FN solid is dead on at 50 yards with express sights or red dot,
and the the HP shoots higher with scope sight.
Regardless of what you decide to use, all combos above can thus be adequate for any DG or PG combo hunt.
I even have a cast bullet combo (FN, PC-painted, gas-checked, BHN 25) of 585-grainer at 1400 fps zeroed at 100 yards
paired with a 410-grainer at 2150 fps that is 4" high at 100 yards with same scope setting.
You now have the new DOUBLE RIFLE.
With the premium hunting bullets it is a precision single shot sniper rifle and a rapid-fire elephant rifle all rolled into one.
A .458 WM+ and a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum to save your bacon at closer range if you muff it with that one shot and get charged, magazine fed speedy as it gets: Make sure your FN bullets feed properly in your rifle.
If the critter is at long range, you have time to reload your .458 WM+ single loader.
Usually the one shot from the .458 WM+ single shot is all it takes.
Actually, the 404-gr Hammer can be loaded to 2600 fps from a 24" barrel by using Norma brass and a 3.38" COL.
That will fit in the usual +3.4" bolt action magazine.
Pair that with the the 400-gr CEB FN at 2500 fps with 3.35" COL.
Voila ! One rifle again, still two loads, still .458 WM+ by exceeding 3.34" COL just a little bit.
With standard brass (W-W, R-P, Federal, Hornady) you would need to either load to COL of 0.100" longer
or knock the velocity down to 2500 fps for the Hammer HP and 2400 fps for the 400-gr CEB brass FN, for magazine loading of both bullets.
I would still be carrying my high-BC, pointy, 404-gr Hammer HPs in an ammo carrier on butt or belt and load them singly. Keep the magazine full of the FN solids to batter away in the box without damage to ammo tip or magazine front wall.
Always be sure to reinforce front wall of box by whatever method you prefer, so no dimpling by bullet noses occurs, due to recoil battering.
I also hear that if a neurosurgeon and a neurologist are getting on an elevator and the door is closing, the neurologist will stick his hand in the closing door to stop it while the neurosurgeon will use his head.
The SAAMI .458 Winchester is like a combination of orthopedic surgeon and neurologist.
Strong and smart.
That makes the SAAMI .458 Lott like a neurosurgeon-obstetrician-gynecologist.
Last edited:
cajunchefray
AH fanatic
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On the right track.I'm a big bore fan but also a big bore newbie so I don't have much in the way of expertise to offer. Just enthusiasm. I have an old friend who kept talking about taking a trip to Africa when we retire in a couple of years and never being one to wait until the last minute, I used this possibility as a perfectly legitimate reason to buy more rifles "just in case".
I had a good assortment of Sako, Steyr, Ruger & Winchester rifles in 30-06, 9.3x74r, 375 H&H and 405 Winchester to handle any PG hunting that we might do. This was fairly easy to do because I could find these in left-handed bolts or ambidextrous falling blocks.
It got a little more challenging when I started trying to find a larger more powerful rifle in a left-handed bolt action. As Fatback posted on the previous page, it is possible to find a nice LH Winchester M70 or something like a LH Zastava, but they're not real common or always affordable. For my particular situation, a left-handed standard action was the easiest route to get started (I wasn't going to sacrifice my LH Winchester 70 Safari Express in 375 H&H to make a bigger rifle...I love it too much).
So eventually with a lot of patient & excellent advice from @Riflecrank, I bought an affordable Ruger M77 MkII in 7mm Rem Mag. I put pillars in it, Talley crossbolts & a stainless rod through the grip to reinforce it. I did all of the reinforcing while it was still a 7mm RM so I could make sure it reassembled properly and functioned well before upsizing the barrel.
View attachment 642902
I then got McGowen to make me a 23", 1:14 twist in a #5 profile to put on it.
View attachment 642907
With a Dremel, some chisels and a bit of sandpaper, I was able to enlarge the barrel inlet to make it into a nice 458 Win Mag for me to start testing with:
View attachment 642903
To get going, I've been shooting 404gr Shock Hammer's at 2,250 fps. I'm not going to lie: I was a bit intimidated the first day I took it to the range because I didn't know what to expect. Fortunately, it turned out great. I love the way this rifle shoots & I like the way it feels. Once I got used to shooting it & realized I wasn't going to have my glasses broken, it rapidly became one of my favorite rifles to shoot. I've only put 36 rounds through it in the last month but they all made me smile.
View attachment 642904
I need to practice, practice, practice. Not too bad for day #1.
With four rounds and a Leupold 3x20mm Big Bore scope, this rifle weighs 9.64# / 4,372 grams. Now that Arkansas has implemented a straight-wall season this year, it'll be interesting to see if I get a chance to try her out. If not, then maybe the next time I go hunting hogs in Texas.
I have a Whitworth.458 that is a dream to handle and shoot.
But I still have an itch for a rebarrelled Ruger 77MKII. Solid action and I like the scope rings to milled action bases.
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