The “458 Winchester Magnum, all the cartridge you’ll ever need” thread

Karl Johnson · Nov 3, 2024

I've been reading these threads on the 458 Win Mag for quite some time now, and became unable to resist any longer

I have an almost unused, CZ 550 Safari Magnum in 458 Win Mag heading my way. Need to get a Bell and Carlson stock for it, a few other tune up items, and start my journey for hunting Cape Buffalo and hippo. You folks have been a very good influence on me, and I thank you for that.

I have ample bullets and powder for practice rounds (45-70 shooter), need some brass and loading dies. Questions:

Timney trigger or something else?

3 position safety....Gentry, NEGC, any recommendations?

Thank you Riflecrank and others who willingly share their combination of in-depth technical expertise and real world experience!!!

Northern Shooter · Nov 3, 2024

Did you ever test Federal's 500gr TBBC loads? Listed at 2090 fps as well.

Riflecrank · Nov 3, 2024

I only have one more factory load of note, the Buffalo Bore 400-gr TSX that I fired in this rifle:

Daisy the Ruger No. 1 (24" factory barrel) and Cabela the M70 Super Grade (23-7/8" factory barrel)
are my standbys for factory ammo, testing.
Their barrels slug the same 0.459", 1:14" twist, and they give very close to same MV for same loads & conditions.

Buffalo Bore claimed for 400-gr TSX: 2250 fps, and Tim Sundles got that with both of his rifles, 18" and 22" barrels.
Chronographed by me in Daisy: 2336 fps MV for a 10-shot mean
Based on my longer barrel length, the speed of Daisy is intermediate to the two rifles of Tim Sundles.
His 18" Marquart-barreled custom rifle is very fast.
His 22" factory job is kind of slow.
Daisy is a happy medium, just right, as Goldilocks would say.
Might be a short throat generating higher pressure and velocity could explain it all,
or is there something about the rifling dimensions and surface finish ?

Switching bullets from a 400-grain Woodleigh PPSN at +2600 fps (.458 WM+)
to the sedate factory load satisfying SAAMI .458 WinMag restrictions:

Five more shots and zeroed close enough for deer hunting with the expensive factory ammo, not to be wasted, even if it is not as accurate as handloads:

But doggone I went and wasted ammo to zero it in another rifle,a Ruger Mark II with 25" Shilen barel and it was doing 2350 fps MV. Oh well !

I wore my ear plugs and drilled him through the heart. Zeroed rifle with brake and expense of ammo was too much to do it again without brake.
If I am shooting 60 to 80 rounds of .458 WM+ loads at a session, a brake is nice.
I agree they are evil in the field.
I am bad.
PS: My dissection of Tim Sundles load makes me think he is using a mid-range powder charge of AA-2230. Look it up in the Western Powders manual, for 400-grain bullet there.
Do not tell him I am giving away his recipe.

Riflecrank · Nov 3, 2024

Karl Johnson said:
I've been reading these threads on the 458 Win Mag for quite some time now, and became unable to resist any longer I have an almost unused, CZ 550 Safari Magnum in 458 Win Mag heading my way. Need to get a Bell and Carlson stock for it, a few other tune up items, and start my journey for hunting Cape Buffalo and hippo. You folks have been a very good influence on me, and I thank you for that.

I have ample bullets and powder for practice rounds (45-70 shooter), need some brass and loading dies. Questions:

Timney trigger or something else?

3 position safety....Gentry, NEGC, any recommendations?

Thank you Riflecrank and others who willingly share their combination of in-depth technical expertise and real world experience!!!

Karl, you will not be disappointed.
Your rifle as from factory should work fine with factory safety and trigger.
I won't change anymore of them.
Did about a half dozen in the past with Ed Lapour and Jim Wisner safeties, and yes Timney triggers.

Riflecrank · Nov 3, 2024

Northern Shooter said:
Did you ever test Federal's 500gr TBBC loads? Listed at 2090 fps as well.

Nope. You do it for us since you have the ammo, please.
Whatever it does, .458 WM+ handloads can do better.
Better than SAAMI .458 WinMag loads.
Better than SAAMI .458 Lott loads.
Oh yeah.
My .458 WM+ inspired by odonata's got some laser engraving yesterday:

www.patriotlaserengraving.com

Done while I waited for only a few minutes and charged only $40.
In this case I was very happy to tip.

Even a Ruger M77 Mk II/Hawkeye can grow up to become a .458 WM+.

Riflecrank · Nov 3, 2024

It is strange that Hornady used to load its 500-grainers to 2260 fps MV in SAAMI satisfying .458 WinMag.
Then it came out that shelf life of the ammo was only 6 months before it self-destructed.
Then that "Heavy Magnum" ammo offering ended.
Some bad stuff in whatever powder they used for that.

It happens, happened to the WRAC ammo once upon a time.
Powder spills out of cases being jostled in the loading machines.
Polishing media sticking to primer sealant around primer pockets ...
stranger than fiction ... you can't make this stuff up ... though the Lottites sure try.

Northern Shooter · Nov 3, 2024

I just ran the numbers using your actual tested velocities of the 400gr TBBC -

Riflecrank said:
Federal factory load, 400-gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, old version (there is a nickel-plated multi-cannelured/grooved version now, IIRC),
claimed: 2250 fps MV
Chronographed: 2345 fps

View attachment 644801

I am guessing that was RL-7 or similar powder, note 77*F temperature.

Just ran the energy numbers on your recorded velocities of the 400gr TBBC - 4,884 ft-lbs, which is slightly higher than the advertised muzzle energy on the 500gr TBBC.

Slyfox72114 · Nov 3, 2024

Riflecrank said:
Hello Slyfox,
Is the rifle not marked as a "450 Ackley Magnum" ?
That is the one we think of usually.
It came along after James Watts started it all with his ".450 Watts Magnum," shooting first in 1949.
Watts visited Ackley and Buhmiller, looking for a barrel early on in his dreaming stage.
It does seem Watts beat both of them to the .450-bore on the 2.85"-length H&H Magnum case.

The .450 Watts Magnum has a straight, belted case, no shoulder, and is 0.050" longer than the .458 Lott wildcat latecomer (1971).

The .450 Ackley Magnum had a 2.85" belted H&H case length also, but had a tiny shoulder located at 2.407" from the base face of the brass case.
Shoulder hemi-angle angle was 20* (cone angle 40*).
Shoulder was 0.503" diameter at 2.407" length.
Neck-1 was 0.487" diameter at 2.429" length.
Neck-2 (case mouth) was 0.486" diameter at 2.850" maximum brass length.

If you have a .450 Ackley Magnum, it really would be best to get the proper handloading dies and some basic cylindrical H&H Magnum brass to size down and shoot, and some properly headstamped brass for Africa. And the rifle needs to be engraved/stamped properly as to chambering/cartridge on the barrel.
The .450 Ackley Magnum is well known and bragged about often by magnificent author Terry Wieland. Proper brass and dies should not be too hard to find. Google away.

I have a .450 Barnes Supreme by Fred N. Barnes, from the 1950s, which is very similar to the .450 Ackley Magnum. Barnes used both Brevex and 1917 Enfield actions for the Barnes Supreme line of proprietary cartridges he offerred.
Long brass, tiny shoulder, load data would be interchangeable.
I also have a .416 Barnes Supreme, another one from the 1950s.
Both of my Barnes Supremes were built on Whitworth MK X actions in 1987, just before Remington came out with the .416 RemMag, boo-hoo.

Watts also did a 2.5" .450 Watts Short before the .458 Winchester Magnum was released to the public in 1956, after James Watts "released " it to Winchester in the year 1954 or before.

Fred N. Barnes was offering his proprietary 450 B-J Express (Barnes-Johnson) in a lineup of "short magnum" cartridges from 7mm to .458 caliber, in the early 1950s.
He claimed his 450 B-J Express was being chambered and rifles sold "several years before Winchester added the .458 to their line."
The B-J express line all had 2.5" belted H&H Magnum ("short magnum") cases with the case body length to shoulder being 2.125", shoulder diameter 0.500", shoulder hemi-angle 35*.
He said in his March 15, 1958 pamphlet:
"450 B-J Express
The most powerful of the B-J Line. Shoots a 500 gr. bullet at 2200 f.s. Works perfectly in any standard length action. Rifles chambered for this cartridge will also shoot the new .458 Winchester factory cartridge.
While this is a so-called improved version of the .458 Winchester we chambered rifles for the .450 B-J several years before Winchester added the .458 to their line."

Seems Fred N. Barnes might have given Winchester ideas about the .338 WinMag and .264 WinMag too.

So when you say "improved .458" it stirs up thoughts of something other than the .450 Ackley Magnum.
Most likely it is a .450 Ackley Magnum if built on a 1917 Enfield and has a +3.6" magazine box internal length.
Mind your P's and Q's and get a chamber cast if any questions.
Firing a factory .458 Lott cartridge in your rifle to get a short-necked version of the .450 Ackley Magnum would be a sort of chamber cast, in brass.
An actual chamber cast would tell you more about the throat.
Lacking that, check the throat length with dummy cartridges using .458 Lott brass before shooting it.

just some crude overall drawings!

I hope I did this right but it doesn’t match the 450 Ackley that’s on the sheet of paper.

Bob Nelson 35Whelen · Nov 3, 2024

Riflecrank said:
Now the fun begins with this nattering naybob of Lottism.
If the SAAMI .458 Lott is loaded to 62,500 psi and 3.60" COL with a 500-gr bullet: 2250 fps MV
and the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum is loaded to 60,000 psi with 500-gr bullet: 2200 fps MV
The SAAMI .458 Lott has only a 50 fps MV advantage over the lower-pressured SAAMI .458 WinMag.

If you get the Lott down to 2200 fps, it is still going to have a higher pressure than the
60,000 psi MAP of the SAAMI .458 WinMag,
and it will have to burn more powder and recoil more to do it.
The Lottite panties get wadded and wedged everytime they learn this.

How could this be ?
It is because of the difference in throating.
Tight and short in the .458 Lott.
The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum is a longer cartridge than the the SAAMI .458 Lott.
It takes a longer length of cutting reamer to chamber the .458 WM than the .458 L.

The only way the .458 Loser can compete with the .458 Winner is if a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer is used to extend the throat of the SAAMI .458 Lott.
It cleans up the SAAMI .458 Lott throat completely, swallowed up by the terminal leade of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum
Then you have a ".458 Lott Special" like Jack built.

Federal publishes load data for use with their 500-gr/.458 Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solid.
The COL is 3.275", for a SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum with 24" barrel.
The pressure is no more than 60,000 psi.

Propellant: 77.1 grains of Alliant Power Pro Varmint
Primer: F215
MV = 2213 fps

Propellant: 65.6 grains of Alliant Power Pro 1200-R
Primer: F215
MV = 2089 fps.

OH BOY. I can get kicked harder at same or higher pressure by burning more powder in a .458 Lott.
And I can be slower and more likely to short-stroke a longer action while absorbing the greater recoil.

Is not the .458 Win (as in winner) absolutely the better choice ?
If you want more kick than you can get out of the SAAMI .458 Lott
just use a .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge loaded long and single load it into your Short Action Magnum.
Or use it through the magazine of your Long Action SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
Beware, such .458 WM+ loads may be unsafe in the .458 Lott with its shorter chamber+throat overall length.
Some .458 WM+ loads will not even fit into a SAAMI .458 Lott.
THROAT THROAT THROAT
PHYSICS DOES NOT LIE

One of my favorite ironies of the .458 Loser is that it most commonly uses cartridge brass
that has been stretched by 0.3" to fit into a magazine-repeating-rifle that has only been stretched by 0.2".
Irony is the highest form of humor.

@Riflecrank
As Linda Lovelace once said a long throat is good or was that deep-throat.
Most of my rifles are long throated to allow more powder, better seating and less pressure.

Bob

cajunchefray · Nov 3, 2024

Riflecrank said:
CZDiesel,
Very nice.
Interesting Hornady ammo results. You have a fast rifle.
It happens.
Tim Sundles the Buffalo Bore proprietor has an 18" custom rifle and a 22" factory rifle
that shoot his 400-gr TSX to about same MV.
The 18" rifle was maybe 2 fps faster.
I have over a dozen diffeent factory loads for the .458 WinMag that I have chronographed over the last couple of years,
at least 10 of them in the same rifle.
It will be fun to make a table showing claimed MV and my rifle's MV ...
Will do later.

Interested in that data. Real world numbers, matter. Not doubting, just really interesting to know what the manufacturers claim, and then what they do.

Kinda like politicians.

Slyfox72114 · Nov 3, 2024

Riflecrank said:
Hello Slyfox,
Is the rifle not marked as a "450 Ackley Magnum" ?
That is the one we think of usually.
It came along after James Watts started it all with his ".450 Watts Magnum," shooting first in 1949.
Watts visited Ackley and Buhmiller, looking for a barrel early on in his dreaming stage.
It does seem Watts beat both of them to the .450-bore on the 2.85"-length H&H Magnum case.

The .450 Watts Magnum has a straight, belted case, no shoulder, and is 0.050" longer than the .458 Lott wildcat latecomer (1971).

The .450 Ackley Magnum had a 2.85" belted H&H case length also, but had a tiny shoulder located at 2.407" from the base face of the brass case.
Shoulder hemi-angle angle was 20* (cone angle 40*).
Shoulder was 0.503" diameter at 2.407" length.
Neck-1 was 0.487" diameter at 2.429" length.
Neck-2 (case mouth) was 0.486" diameter at 2.850" maximum brass length.

If you have a .450 Ackley Magnum, it really would be best to get the proper handloading dies and some basic cylindrical H&H Magnum brass to size down and shoot, and some properly headstamped brass for Africa. And the rifle needs to be engraved/stamped properly as to chambering/cartridge on the barrel.
The .450 Ackley Magnum is well known and bragged about often by magnificent author Terry Wieland. Proper brass and dies should not be too hard to find. Google away.

I have a .450 Barnes Supreme by Fred N. Barnes, from the 1950s, which is very similar to the .450 Ackley Magnum. Barnes used both Brevex and 1917 Enfield actions for the Barnes Supreme line of proprietary cartridges he offerred.
Long brass, tiny shoulder, load data would be interchangeable.
I also have a .416 Barnes Supreme, another one from the 1950s.
Both of my Barnes Supremes were built on Whitworth MK X actions in 1987, just before Remington came out with the .416 RemMag, boo-hoo.

Watts also did a 2.5" .450 Watts Short before the .458 Winchester Magnum was released to the public in 1956, after James Watts "released " it to Winchester in the year 1954 or before.

Fred N. Barnes was offering his proprietary 450 B-J Express (Barnes-Johnson) in a lineup of "short magnum" cartridges from 7mm to .458 caliber, in the early 1950s.
He claimed his 450 B-J Express was being chambered and rifles sold "several years before Winchester added the .458 to their line."
The B-J express line all had 2.5" belted H&H Magnum ("short magnum") cases with the case body length to shoulder being 2.125", shoulder diameter 0.500", shoulder hemi-angle 35*.
He said in his March 15, 1958 pamphlet:
"450 B-J Express
The most powerful of the B-J Line. Shoots a 500 gr. bullet at 2200 f.s. Works perfectly in any standard length action. Rifles chambered for this cartridge will also shoot the new .458 Winchester factory cartridge.
While this is a so-called improved version of the .458 Winchester we chambered rifles for the .450 B-J several years before Winchester added the .458 to their line."

Seems Fred N. Barnes might have given Winchester ideas about the .338 WinMag and .264 WinMag too.

So when you say "improved .458" it stirs up thoughts of something other than the .450 Ackley Magnum.
Most likely it is a .450 Ackley Magnum if built on a 1917 Enfield and has a +3.6" magazine box internal length.
Mind your P's and Q's and get a chamber cast if any questions.
Firing a factory .458 Lott cartridge in your rifle to get a short-necked version of the .450 Ackley Magnum would be a sort of chamber cast, in brass.
An actual chamber cast would tell you more about the throat.
Lacking that, check the throat length with dummy cartridges using .458 Lott brass before shooting it.

Slyfox72114 · Nov 3, 2024

A crude drawing.

It looks similar to the 450 Ackley, but I’m not sure about the length of the case.

Bob Nelson 35Whelen · Nov 3, 2024

cajunchefray said:
On the right track.
I have a Whitworth.458 that is a dream to handle and shoot.

But I still have an itch for a rebarrelled Ruger 77MKII. Solid action and I like the scope rings to milled action bases.

@cajunchefray
Easy mate just rebarell the Ruger to another Whelen. You already have a 458 but you can never have enough Whelens.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob

hoytcanon · Nov 3, 2024

cajunchefray said:
... I still have an itch for a rebarrelled Ruger 77MKII. Solid action and I like the scope rings to milled action bases.

Ruger M77 Mark II, 14 twist 20" Bob Jury barrel chambered for .458 Win Mag, NECG sights, B&C stock, Leupold VX-R 2-7X33 IR scope in Leupold rings.

cajunchefray · Nov 3, 2024

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:
@cajunchefray
Easy mate just rebarell the Ruger to another Whelen. You already have a 458 but you can never have enough Whelens.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen

Thanks, mate, I needed to take a breather and reconsider. Whew!!

A .400 Whelen (original Colonel Townsend Whelen specs as verified by Michael Petrov), in a Ruger 77 MK II, .410 diameter, 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps would cure my needs.
That is what I keep telling myself.
Ruger 77 MK II, from the early to mid 1990s, when William Batterman Ruger still ran the ship, good rifles.

The .400 Whelen, with 450/400 Nitro performance (circa 1898, and onward), 5 rounds in a Mauser 98 derivative, with machined scope bases. If needed, a 4x Zeiss mounted for plains game.

All I should ever need. Really.

Other than my gunsmith, talking about several nice .375 Whelen's.

What about that CFE-223 powder?

Riflecrank · Nov 3, 2024

Slyfox72114:

Breech face to top of belt is 0.220" and I do not think you are including that.
Then add 2.6325" to that as shown by your measurement = 2.8525"
Not bad for your first chamber cast.

The chamber reamer by PT&G/ Dave Kiff has those measurements for the .450 Ackley Magnum like this
0.2200" + 2.6500" = 2.870"
That is long enough for a 2.850" brass case plus 0.020" for case stretch on firing for safety,
just like the allowance on the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum, 2.520" chamber length for 2.500" brass length.
Unlike the SAAMI .458 Lott that allows only 2.810" chamber length for 2.800" brass length, only a niggardly 0.010" for brass to stretch into and spring back.

This still does not explain how your bolt face looks too big.
Could someone have mixed up the bolts in a rifle collection of Model 1917 ?
Take your rifle and chamber cast to a qualified gunsmith to sort it out.
Including marking the proper chambering designation on the rifle
and a headspace check.

CZDiesel · Nov 3, 2024

Altitude sickness said:
CZ, I’m sold. I’ll take it. Let me know what shipping is.

Not so fast friend! It goes with me to Zim first lol

Bob Nelson 35Whelen · Nov 3, 2024

cajunchefray said:
@Bob Nelson 35Whelen

Thanks, mate, I needed to take a breather and reconsider. Whew!!

A .400 Whelen (original Colonel Townsend Whelen specs as verified by Michael Petrov), in a Ruger 77 MK II, .410 diameter, 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps would cure my needs.
That is what I keep telling myself.
Ruger 77 MK II, from the early to mid 1990s, when William Batterman Ruger still ran the ship, good rifles.

The .400 Whelen, with 450/400 Nitro performance (circa 1898, and onward), 5 rounds in a Mauser 98 derivative, with machined scope bases. If needed, a 4x Zeiss mounted for plains game.

All I should ever need. Really.

Other than my gunsmith, talking about several nice .375 Whelen's.

What about that CFE-223 powder?

@cajunchefray
Do you want me to try and find some 400 Whelen loads with CFE 223 for you.
What bullet weights are you looking at.
Bob

Riflecrank · Nov 3, 2024

Looking through my load notebook I realized I had given Tim Sundles 400-gr TSX load short shrift.
It was much better on the second zeroing in the 25" Shilen barrel on a Ruger Mark II.
I must make amends.
The load that cost $6 per shot (before S&H) when I bought it back in 2021: