The 243 Winchester for Australian Game

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

To keep it on topic: In Australia, I think it is aces.

I seem to remember a rule in Victoria about 270 and up for Sambar and Red deer. Maybe it was 7mm.

I only lived in Australia for 3 years, and I lived in Canberra so we hunted Victoria and New South Wales.

I think for the rest of Australia (not on big deer) it makes a lot of sense. Hogs in Australia are rarely huge, as a roo rifle it is tops as with good holowpoints it debrains a roo pretty well.

Dingos and fox it's aces as well.

Keep it in Australia and not on big deer and it is a top choice.

Not sure if John Butts from Wagga is still making his wild dog bullets or not, but that is what I would shoot for all my roo, fox and wild dog endeavors.

@Muskox
Wagga is my home town, born bred and raised. Left there in 77, 79 ,82 and 2001
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

100% correct. From the examples that @Bob Nelson 35Whelen gives it is apparent to me that it shouldn't be a criticism of the .243 which is an excellent deer round, but says something to the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the shooters that he knows that don't know enough to use the proper bullet. My family has never had a deer run farther than 50 yards after being hit with a 100 grainer and many were DRT. My Goddaughter has killed moose, elk and black bears with hers with great success by limiting her shooting distance.

@Ragman
That's the problem with the people I know that use the 243. They get one good kill with a particular bullet and think it will work for everything. I have tried explaining the principles of bullets and how they work but short of hitting them in the head with the but you can't change their mind. Right bullet, right placement equals dead game. Some people just can't/ don't understand the RIGHT bullet principles and refuse to change.
Unfortunately my opinion won't change on the 243 I still don't and never will like it. Winchester bullshit and people using the wrong bullet did it to me. I used a standard 25/303 for a while and fell in love with 25s and still love them to this day.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob 100 grain bullets & a 24 inch barrel gets the job done.Why would a .257 dia 87 grain bullet be much better than 87 grain .243 bullet at the same velocity ? does .014 of an inch make that much difference ? comparing the 25/06 to the 243 is not realistic. The 243 W & the 250 Savage is a more realistic comparison.

@rdog
Give me the 250 Savage any day. Agree comparing the 243 to the 25/06 is unfair. The little Savage to me is just better.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Im a fan of the 243 , have had several one is on its third barrel. The failings of the cal come from factory ammo designed for varmints. I ran the 105 speers until I couldn't get them any more and shot plenty of medium game with them. My all-round load was 85gr Sierra HPBT and I still use this load today. Works well on pigs with placed shots.
My serious load is the 95gr partition , and 85gr partition. Several deer have been taken with these.
Great cal for fallow deer and hoggies, decent projectiles work well on reds.

My daughters learnt to shoot with a 223, and then progressed to the 243. Both have claimed a 243 each. Guess ill have to buy another.
Comparisons to the 25 cals , agree with the other comments re 250 savage, 257 Roberts . Very similar performance. 25-06 is in a different league.
My go to farm/ truck gun is a rem 700 heavy barrel 243, pretty hard to beat.
Used within the expectations/ limitations of the cal its a great performer.
Cheers Mick
rem 700
View attachment 449186
styer L 243 85r partition
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View attachment 449184
Storm pretty serious boar 1 partition styer L, went 25m
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Sage with here first boar
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storms first fallow deer rem 243 95gr partition
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@264
As you said mick with the RIGHT BULLETS IN THE RIGHT PLACE. A lot don't tho.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I shoot 100 gr speers in my .243. I don’t use it a lot but the 3 or 4 whitetail I’ve shot with it were one shot kills.

@WAB and others what's are the chronoed speeds you get with those 100gn. The best I could ever get was just shy of 2,800 fps. Today the 250 Savage can do 3,000 safely with 100s
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yes we hunt wild goats some of the big males are hard to kill, a 100 grain bullet & a well placed shot is
required, even poorly placed shots from a 270 or 30/06 is sometimes not a 1 shot kill, we have wankers in this country that use a 223 for every thing & just shoot them to bits with 55 grain fmj

@rdog
Play nicely mate their proper name is Wayne Ker or Richard Cranium (dickheads) and unfortunately there's quite a few of them.
Bob

 

[WAB]

@WAB and others what's are the chronoed speeds you get with those 100gn. The best I could ever get was just shy of 2,800 fps. Today the 250 Savage can do 3,000 safely with 100s
Bob

I think I’m actually getting about 2900 Bob but I’ll check my notes in the morning. (My memory’s great but rather short)

 

[Muskox]

American foxes weigh about 5-15 pounds
Australian and European foxes weigh 15-30 pounds.
Coyotes weigh 20-45 pounds, there are some big dogs in the 70's
Dingos (known as Wild Dogs, in Australia) are Australian Cattle (Blue Heeler) dog sized animals. They are 35-75 pounds.

Grey Kangaroos top out at 100-125 for big boomers (males), females are generally 35-65 pounds.
Red Kangaroos top out at 175 pounds, females are about 10-20 pounds bigger than a grey.

Most Australian states require headshots, and a shooting test to be a roo shooter, or at least they did when I lived there from 2010-2013.

Sambar are 85-95% of an Rocky Mountain Elk sized. Biggest bulls are 650-700 pounds. So clearly not 243 territory.

 

[rdog]

@WAB and others what's are the chronoed speeds you get with those 100gn. The best I could ever get was just shy of 2,800 fps. Today the 250 Savage can do 3,000 safely with 100s
Bob

I though the 250 savage claim to fame was an 87 grain at 3000 fps ie 250/3000. we could talk all day about longer barrels, slower burning propellants, higher pressures, the 243 has a bigger case! & i love the 250 Savage but they are hard to find. & so is brass. Used with 100 grain not varmint bullets the 243 does a good job on small game, for bigger game use a bigger cartridge.

 

[GeoffB]

The .243 Win has played a big part in my kids hunting careers when they were younger.
They all started with a .22Lr then moved up to a .222 Rem and then the .243 Win
My son took a liking to the .243 and took his first pig, fallow doe, fallow buck and goats, etc.
But I made sure we used the appropriate bullet and put the shot in the right place.
When the kids were at ages between 11 and 14 years old I loaded 85gr partition bullets and backed the powder charge off by 3 grains to reduce the recoil for both sons and daughters. The animals we shot never noticed the difference in the reduced velocity. We made the shot placement the priority.
I even cut the length of the stock back to 12" LOP on my little Rem mod 7 to suit their smaller size.
When they got a little older they moved up to the 95gr and 100gr partition and have shot game up to Red deer in size with it ever since.
I'm not saying its a red deer cartridge but it was what we had at the time and I was confident in them taking the shot at a reasonable distance.

My young bloke with his first pig at 12 years old - 85gr partition

First Fallow Buck at 13 years old - 85gr partition

A local Red deer at 16 years old - 100gr Partition

The .243 now wears a new stock with a standard 13.5" LOP and my son is now a young man in his 20's who recently took over the ownership of the well traveled little .243
His favorite hunting caliber is currently the .270 Win but he still like using the .243 as it gave him so many good memories.

 

[rdog]

The .243 Win has played a big part in my kids hunting careers when they were younger.
They all started with a .22Lr then moved up to a .222 Rem and then the .243 Win
My son took a liking to the .243 and took his first pig, fallow doe, fallow buck and goats, etc.
But I made sure we used the appropriate bullet and put the shot in the right place.
When the kids were at ages between 11 and 14 years old I loaded 85gr partition bullets and backed the powder charge off by 3 grains to reduce the recoil for both sons and daughters. The animals we shot never noticed the difference in the reduced velocity. We made the shot placement the priority.
I even cut the length of the stock back to 12" LOP on my little Rem mod 7 to suit their smaller size.
When they got a little older they moved up to the 95gr and 100gr partition and have shot game up to Red deer in size with it ever since.
I'm not saying its a red deer cartridge but it was what we had at the time and I was confident in them taking the shot at a reasonable distance.

My young bloke with his first pig at 12 years old - 85gr partition
View attachment 449207

First Fallow Buck at 13 years old - 85gr partition
View attachment 449208

A local Red deer at 16 years old - 100gr Partition
View attachment 449210
The .243 now wears a new stock with a standard 13.5" LOP and my son is now a young man in his 20's who recently took over the ownership of the well traveled little .243
His favorite hunting caliber is currently the .270 Win but he still like using the .243 as it gave him so many good memories.

Great story & use of the 243 with the right bullet.

 

[Zambezi]

I have only used a .243 on two occasions. The second time we were spotlighting on a friends farm in the Kabwe area of Zambia shooting reedbuck. I lined up an easy shot at around 70-90m, the animal dead still in the spotlight and the scope picking him up perfectly. Two shots later the damn thing was still looking directly at me and hadn't fallen over yet. Eventually I moved two paces to my right and dropped him with the 3rd shot.

On approach we realised that there was reed / thick grass between my original shooting position and the quarry. The bullets were obviously ricocheting off this grass/reed. Is that the fault of the .243 or not? All I know is that I haven't had confidence in that calibre since then.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

I have never been a fan of the 243 for shooting pigs, goats its probably ok and thin skinned smaller deer, perfect for dingoes but for pigs I just don't understand why you would use a 243. Standard off the shelf rifles in say 243 and 308 in Australia are exactly the same price and you can buy 308 factory ammo for pretty much the same price as 243 ammo. When shooting pigs in Australia in general you need to be able to shoot an animal that is 20kgs up to 80kgs, once you get to that 60- 80kg size pig with big shoulder pads and covered in mud the 243 just doesn't cut it. Shooting pigs around crops like I do where its not uncommon for pigs to be in the 80-120kg range you definitely don't want to be using a 243 and this is not just based on opinion this is based on 20 years of pig hunting and having taken around 4000-4500 pigs over those 20 years.

 

[Nyati]

In Spain, I use RWS TM 100 gr in .243 for Roe Deer exclusively.

I shot a Duiker in SA with a .243, but don´t remember which bullet I used.

 

[rdog]

I have never been a fan of the 243 for shooting pigs, goats its probably ok and thin skinned smaller deer, perfect for dingoes but for pigs I just don't understand why you would use a 243. Standard off the shelf rifles in say 243 and 308 in Australia are exactly the same price and you can buy 308 factory ammo for pretty much the same price as 243 ammo. When shooting pigs in Australia in general you need to be able to shoot an animal that is 20kgs up to 80kgs, once you get to that 60- 80kg size pig with big shoulder pads and covered in mud the 243 just doesn't cut it. Shooting pigs around crops like I do where its not uncommon for pigs to be in the 80-120kg range you definitely don't want to be using a 243 and this is not just based on opinion this is based on 20 years of pig hunting and having taken around 4000-4500 pigs over those 20 years.

Spot on .

 

[ZG47]

@rdog
You make some valid points BUT I personally have seen to much game wounded with the 243 to deem it worth while as a hunting round.
Here are some examples
243, 87gn federal blue box ammo. Bullet passed straight thru a big western grey kangaroo zero expansion.
Hand loaded 87gn VMAX, 3 chest shots to dispatch a mature Billy.
Hand loaded 95gn nosler balistic tip. Pig 1, 30kg weight bullet pass thru zero expansion, pig 2 same bullet exploded on the hide of a 50kg pig not mud encrusted large superficial wound. Pig 3 same bullet actually worked.

The problem with the 243 in Australia is most people select the wrong bullet for the game hunted. Most like the 87 grainers for general use on every thing and suffer failures. Loaded with a good 95gn SST or 100gn round nose it would probably be a fine cartridge within 200 yards for medium game but the majority of people don't see this.

When it first came out in a blaze of glory with Winchesters advertising it was supose to be the best thing to come down the turnpike since buttonup boots and sliced bread. It didn't live up to the velocity chain that Winchester made for it and they lowered the velocity.
I have loaded for a couple of 243s for friends working up to max charges and in no case could I get anywhere near the book velocity
87 grainers managed 2,900 fps in a tikka t3 light and just a tad over 3,000 in another rifle. The 100 grainers were struggling to get 2,800fps out of either rifle,closer to 2,700fps.
Book velocity for the 87s was 3,300 and the 100s were supposed to be 3,000 fps, a big difference.
I was at the range and a gent was trying out his new Sako 243 with factory Winchester 87 grainers and Hand loaded 87s. The factory loads chronoed at a bit over 2,800 and the Hand loads were only fractionally better.
My case is why would anyone want to use a cartridge that can't live up to its claims and advertising hype as a hunting cartridge with projectile that just don't work on their chosen game.
The little 250 Savage and mild mannered 257 Roberts have been around for a lot longer than the 243 and have been doing a better job than it for years but Winchester advertising killed them off and people started using the inferior cartridge because Winchester convinced people this is what they needed.
If you want to use a 243 by all means use it just stop asking me to finish off your wounded animals, I have done it to many time for hunters that are great shots.

One person I used to hunt with had a nice Tikka T3 lite in 243 that would shoot tiny little groups. He was give an old M17 converted to 25/06 that he asked me to look at. I glass bedded it, fitted a Timney trigger set at 2 pounds. That rifle grouped 2 inches at 200 yards. It was over 2 pound heavier than his beloved 243. After using the 25/06 he left the 243 at home and stated the 25 was far superior and killed how he was led to believe the 243 should. He has shot a 14 point red stag and a mountain brumby with it using federal 117grain blue box ammo and said if he had the 243 at the time he wouldn't have taken a shot at either.
Now you can understand my strong dislike for the 243, I just don't trust it and why I love my 25s for use in Australia, the 25s just seem to make Moe sense to me.
Bob

Bob, Winchester and Remington lowered the velocities of the .243 Winchester and 7mm Remington respectively, in the mid 1960s; when piezoelectric pressure measuring equipment for small arms ammo testing became available and they discovered that pressures for those chamberings were too high. Barnes Cartridges was still displaying the original factory velocities, forty odd years after the changes and many people took their word as gospel.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob, Winchester and Remington lowered the velocities of the .243 Winchester and 7mm Remington respectively, in the mid 1960s; when piezoelectric pressure measuring equipment for small arms ammo testing became available and they discovered that pressures for those chamberings were too high. Barnes Cartridges was still displaying the original factory velocities, forty odd years after the changes and many people took their word as gospel.

@ZG47

This says it all.
Bob

 

[rdog]

@ZG47
View attachment 449362
This says it all.
Bob

I totally agree the 257 Roberts is a step up from a 243 just like a 243 is a step up from the 22/250 that's the reason we have so many cartridges to choose from each, has its own place if you could buy a new factory 257 R other than a kimber i would have one. Both my sons own 257 R one a Ruger 77 & a Winchester 70 feather weight probably due to my influence when they were younger.

 

[CBH Australia]

I totally agree the 257 Roberts is a step up from a 243 just like a 243 is a step up from the 22/250 that's the reason we have so many cartridges to choose from each, has its own place if you could buy a new factory 257 R other than a kimber i would have one. Both my sons own 257 R one a Ruger 77 & a Winchester 70 feather weight probably due to my influence when they were younger.

I wonder if Bob has any influence on his son's rifle preference.

This says it all.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I wonder if Bob has any influence on his son's rifle preference.

@CBH Australia
The only influence I have had was when he was 5 I had a 25Epps built for him on a No4 SMLE action.
He chose his own shotgun, a Huglu O/Ufor trap. He also chose his Howa 308 after trying different rifles for size. I asked him why not a 30-06. His reply the 08 will do most things the 06 will and its all I need.
He proved that correct in Namibia on zebra and gemsbok/oryx.
Bpb