The 308, 30-06, 7x57 Conundrum

[spike.t]

Although I've never owned one, the 7x57 is an excellent cartridge. It was shameful how many arrived in this country as surplus after the war, but were stripped of their barrels and stocks, only because the new owner wanted a more familiar (American) caliber.

My desire is not for a new 7x57, but an older classic Mauser Sporter. With ammo and brass from PPU and others available, it should become popular again. It will do nearly everything the other two will, except with bullets over 180 grains.

With that said, don't any of you enablers on this site try to temp me into buying such a rifle in a fit of weakness. I already have to many irons in the fire.

So have you got one yet....and if not why not ?...... ....you either are addicted or will be...

 

[Ruraldoc]

I hunt with and reload for all three cartridges.

The 308 is generally is generally the most accurate. I used a 308 with 165 grain trophy bonded tipped bullets with great results on plains game last August. Outstanding performance. Only recovered one bullet and looked like a perfect mushroom after going through a large waterbuck who was quartering away.

The 30-06 is a great cartridge which gives us 100-150 fps more than a 308. I used to think this mattered but now I think it’s really insignificant in the field. I think it would really only matter on creatures for which any 30 caliber is marginal anyway. Think eland or big bears.

The 7x57 with full power handloads is pretty much the same thing as the 308 or 30-06 in the field. A 160 grain premium bullet at 2700 fps does the same thing as a 308 or 30-06 when it arrives on target.

The 7x57 has great history in Africa and makes a great choice when paired with a Mauser action.

After hunting for 30 years with all three and taking a few dozen critters with them, take the one you like and be happy.

 

[Rare Breed]

Both the 7x57mm Mauser and .30-06 Springfield rank as my top two favorite calibers for non dangerous game (although I have successfully hunted dangerous game with both of them).

7x57mm Mauser= I prefer 170-175Gr bullets traveling at a modest velocity of 2400-2440 FPS. Initially, I used the Winchester Super X 175Gr soft point factory load for many years (until Winchester unfortunately discontinued them). Currently, I prefer Prvi Partizan 173Gr soft point factory loads.
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.30-06 Springfield= I exclusively prefer the 220Gr Remington Core Lokt factory load for this caliber. Velocity is a modest 2410 FPS. Not the most modest choice, I admit. But one that serves me extremely well, to this date.

Please note however, that the Seladang was killed with an ICI Kynoch round nosed steel jacketed 220Gr FMJ solid factory load.
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I have successfully taken African plains game as large as bull eland with both the 7x57mm Mauser and the .30-06 Springfield (one shot kills). However, I personally prefer the .30-06 Springfield with 220Gr bullets for the large Kudu & eland species (esp. bulls) since it permits for a slightly larger margin of error than the 7x57mm Mauser (which requires extremely critical shot placement on these largest of African antelope in order to ensure quick & humane kills).

The .308 Winchester (though an excellent caliber in it’s own right) never got used by me for any sporting purposes (except during the Indo-Pak War of 1971 where my service rifle was a Belgian FN FAL in .308 Winchester).

Taking Hunter-Habibs lead, I now use the Remington Corelokt in 220 grains for my 06 with 22 inch barrel. Amazing sub MOA with this!!!!

 

[sgt_zim]

I’m sure you agree, that there is a point of diminishing return with increased velocity as you risk passing through and through.

I wouldn't call that a risk so much as a desired outcome. Two holes means more tissue damage, with an increasing probability of bringing about a swift death.

I'm not sure where you're headed with that comment other than the discredited idea of "energy dumping."

 

[sgt_zim]

I love the treads regarding calibers/cartridges for Africa...and elsewhere. I've read the other Title in this Forum (First Safari - I’ll hunt plains game - What caliber?) extensively and there is a great deal of good information.

I reload a great deal and like to shoot a lot. I have my pet go-to loads but I'm always testing new recipes; I use my chrony extensively.

Here is my take and I'd like to hear the group's thoughts and data, especially when it comes to actual projectile velocities. In my mind, when it comes to terminal performance, it all comes down to the projectile connecting with the animal - payload on target - if you will. I'm not saying anything in this post that folks aren't already very familiar with, but I'm going into a bit of detail IOT ask some final questions.

Interestingly, when it comes to the .308 bullet, the 308 Win and 30-06 Sprg are nothing more than different launching platforms for the same bullets; of course the 30-06 can launch all weights at a higher velocity and this becomes of greater significance as the weights increase up to, and above, 165gr.

The 7x57, a rifle cartridge I have never owned or re-loaded for, is launching a different projectile, but of similar weights up to the 180gr area. Naturally, factory ammunition is anemic compared to what re-loaders can accomplish for modern rifles. But since I don't reload for this cartridge and thus have not tested where I can go, I can only guess the velocities I could get. (I do have a nice Rem 700 CDL LA that I've seriously considered re-chambering to 7x57 Mauser.)

When looking at velocity, one has to consider barrel length. Most reloading manuals (and factory ammo box data) use 24" barrels for testing and many hunting rifles for 30-06 are actually 22" with some even 20", while 308s are often from 22" all the way down to 18.5". I have several 308s and with varying lengths and there is a noted difference in most cases. Hence, I can shoot 165gr bullet from a 20" barreled 30-06 and the same from a 24" barreled 308win and essentially negate any advantage the '06 had. Additionally, many rifle's "sweet spot" is not at max velocity to begin with...

Then we can look at what is the actual energy and penetration needed for a good, ethical kill on say, a Wildebeest or Kudu or Zebra, when shot in the vitals. It seems that most folks are shooting 300yds or less, with some exceptions being longer shots.

I know my ballistics for my favorite 308 and '06. For example, my 308 (20" barrel) launches a 165gr Swift Scirocco II at an avg 2695 fps as it's "sweet spot" and this is also about its MAX. My '06 (22" barrel) launches the same projectile at an avg velocity of 2815 fps in it's "sweet spot". This velocity difference is not insignificant at 300 yds, but when looking at terminal performance, does it make a truly significant difference? There is about 140 fp of energy difference (1703 vs 1845) and about an inch difference in drop/drift; shooting off sticks, I guarantee the inch difference means nothing to me...

***If you don't mind, and have your ballistic data, I'm curious what the "actual" velocities you are getting from your 308s, '06s, and 7x57s for your hunting projectiles. With this, one can easily calculate energy/drop/drift at given distances. This would go a long way in sussing out the terminal performance on game most are getting from their favorite and/or recommended cartridges/calibers.***

Here are my favorite platforms: All Ruger Hawkeye Hunters. (L-R) '06, 308 (my fav), and 6.5CM. I run an ultralight suppressor on them, which is currently sitting on the 308.

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Actual velocities don't matter a lot with any of those 3 cartridges.

Suppose you could get 2600 fps (ain't gonna happen, but let's pretend) out of a 175 gr 7mm bullet for a 7x57. The difference in energy and ballistic arc out to say 250 yards between 2600 and 2400 fps is so small as to be not worth trying to chase down in load development, at least not for me.

I was in a similar situation several years ago when I started LD with 160 gr Woodleigh Weldcores for my 6.5x55. I found a terrifically accurate load at 2400 fps. I probably could have pushed and gotten to 2550 or maybe even 2600 fps. But when I looked at the differences in energy and arc, it just occurred to me that I was on a fool's errand to try and get any faster.

Here are the calculated values at 2400 fps.

And then the values at 2600

If you want a 7x57, get one and know you're good out to maybe 250-300 yards for smaller antelope, and maybe 100 or 150 yards with larger ones, irrespective of whether you can get a fast load for it, or a more typical one of around 2300 or 2400.

As far as 30-06 vs 308, there isn't enough difference between them with 180 gr pills to make much of a difference. For me, the value difference between them is being able to shoot 200 or 220 gr bullets out of the -06. At ordinary shooting distances, no animal will ever know whether you used one or the other with 180 gr pills. All else being relatively equal, I always prefer higher SD to lower.

If you want to reach past 300, these are not the cartridges you're looking for. Something with "magnum" or "PRC" or "Nosler" in the cartridge name is where you'll want to be.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I enjoy this sort of discussion despite it being mostly academic. Hitting the right spot on the animal with an adequate bullet that will penetrate the vitals and ideally go just far enough to pop out the other side is more important than the size, weight or even velocity of the chosen projectile. Still, I test and test more and then go to the field to apply what I have learned in actual uses. Here are a few items to study. Hunter Habib, one of my early deer rifles was a FN FAL in 308 using Nosler BT 165g handloads. It never failed to produce a one shot kill. But, it is heavy, clunky, and generally looks a bit anti-social, lol. So, some decades ago, I replaced it with a Mauser Custom in 270, which surprise, also produced one shot kills, lol. That was using mostly 130g BT's. Fast forward to now. None of these are reloads as I am using factory ammo in each.

FN Browning Mauser style Belgian rifle in 308 loaded with Federal Fusion bonded 180g ammo. MV=2620fps. Zeroed at 200y, is 1" high at 100y and a few inches low at 300y. Groups right at or slightly under 1" at 100y. Used to take five PG animals in RSA on last trip. All were pass-thru and all were one shot kills. Ranges were 20y to 202y. Performance was stunning. I have not measured the bbl length on this one but it is pretty short. I would guess 22". Largest animal to date was a Gemsbok bull.

Husqvarna Swedish Mauser in 30-06 loaded with Remington Premier using 180g Swift Sciroccos. MV=2650 (Nearly identical to 308). 24" bbl. Zeroed at 100y but using a FFP optic capable of dialing out to 400y if desired. Scope works great but the reticle is not my favorite for hunting. This rifle is extremely precise. Groups <1/2" with this load and some 180g Barnes TTSX ammo (MV=2750). Has recorded 3sh group of 2.25" at 400y the one time I tried this. That was with Fed Fusions which were the worst of the lots tested at 100y. They still grouped under 1". This rifle is currently auditioning for PG in Africa next year. Hunted deer with it this year but ended up shooting my deer another day with another rifle. I have no reason to not expect similar performance on game to the 308.

Fierce CT Edge Ultra-Light in 7mm 08. Using 140g Barnes TSX and 22" bbl. I am getting MV=2850 which is maybe a bit better than hot hand loads in the 7x57 (guessing). This is another stunningly precise rifle. 1/2" groups with everything I have tested in it using a 1-4x Leupold optic which is a small handicap to precision shooting. Have not yet hunted with this one. I have a 1-8x LPVO on the way to put on this one.

Fierce CT Edge Ultra-Light in 7mm Mag. This one has a 28" bbl. Using Fed Fusion 150g ammo, I am getting MV=3035fps. This is faster but not hugely faster than the shorter, lighter 7mm 08. Makes me wonder if the 08 is not the secret weapon since it is more handy than the longish Mag. The Mag is topped with a nice Swarovski Z5 3.5-18x optic with a reticle that I really like for hunting. I used this one to take a large Whitetail 10pt buck this year. One shot dropped it in its tracks with a pass-thru shot on the shoulder that was slightly quartering away. Since the deer was attempting to get up, I spent a 2nd shot as a finisher to avoid tracking but the first one did the trick. This rifle is also auditioning for PG use in Africa next year. I am planning to test some heavier loads for it. 160g Barnes TTSX ammo. I have not chrono'ed these but the stated MV=2950fps. Hopefully, the actuals will be close to that. I have found that most of the time the actuals are a little slower but not always. I would love to find some Sciroccos for this one as I like that bullet or some heavier Fusions.

Jury is still out but whichever one wins out will likely end up wearing the Swarovski. Like that scope. Will be hunting Kudu, Wildebeest, and Zebra on the next hunt among others and will have a 375HH on hand if I choose for the larger critters. One of the concessions we will be hunting is in Free State and is more open and requires longer shots out to the 200-400y range. That is why I am not planning on using the 308. I could but will not. It is why the 30-06 and 7mm Mag are the short listers. The 30-06 is heavier but only by 12% but the 7mm has the best SD when comparing the 180g 30cal to the 160g 7mm but only by a small margin. So, in my view they should perform very close to the same. I plan to shoot both some over the winter and choose the one that I am most comfortable shooting from sticks out to 300y.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

In Africa, I often use a 30-06 with 180gr Barnes TTSX and Mama uses her 275 Rigby with 170gr Norma Oryx that I load to just over 2500fps. Everything I have shot with a 30-06 she has shot with her 275 and there is no difference in performance. Animal is dead and the bullets almost always exit.

Safe hunting

 

[JG26Irish_2]

In Africa, I often use a 30-06 with 180gr Barnes TTSX and Mama uses her 275 Rigby with 170gr Norma Oryx that I load to just over 2500fps. Everything I have shot with a 30-06 she has shot with her 275 and there is no difference in performance. Animal is dead and the bullets almost always exit.

Safe hunting

Thank you Sir! It is comments such as this that make this forum so helpful to all of us. I am a very experienced rifleman but only a modestly experienced hunter. But, there is hunting and then there is HUNTING. In the Eastern woods of KY, WV and TN our hunting options are limited to deer, coyotes, groundhogs, wild hogs and maybe black bear and not much else. Also, small game. We lack Pronghorn, moose, elk (unless you are very lucky or well connected) or others of the big game from out West or up in the far Northeast. I have been to Africa and the experience was magnificent but we cannot go there three or four times per year. I would consider the 275 R, the 7x57 and the 7mm08 to be the rough equivalents to one another as well as the 270. But, I only have real world experience with the 270. They all work magnificently on deer, pronghorn, and even Elk which should make them more than enough gun for Impala, Springbok, and even Kudu.

In some ways, I thought my 308 was more devastating than my 375 was on PG, but I only took one PG animal with the 375 and one Whitetail. Both died but the Wildebeest took three shots to finish using Barnes TSX. IMO - the big heavy, slower TSX is designed for controlled expansion in tough animals with deep penetration and as such it does not impart as much shock effect to the lighter skinned game like a deer or even a Wildebeest. It kills them but not as dramatically effective as the 308 or say a 30-06 or even a 300WM. Still, if I tried to kill a Cape Buff with one of those smaller lighter, softer bullets, they might breakup if hitting the big bones of the front legs or shoulder and might sometimes fail to drill deep enough to damage the vitals enough for a quick kill. The beast would die most of the time but possibly not before it stomped your azz into a mudhole, lol.

I know guys who will hunt all of their PG with nothing but the 375HH and it does the job, but in my view it is not the best choice for PG until you get into the very large critters like the Eland, Giraffe, and similar.

 

[Jefferry404]

Love the African nostalgia of the 7x57! (0wn 4)
And the history of the 30-06 (own 5)
the 308 never caught on with me (own 1 M1A)
At the end of the day, it is the 30-06, hands down.
When that 220 grain RN is seated in the case, downright sexy
Steve

 

[Longwalker]

I own three .30-06 rifles, four .308's, and three 7x57's. If there is a practical difference between them for hunting most Canadian game, I cannot see it, but then I don't typically shoot past 300M, and I load medium weight bullets and medium charges of powder in each.
I don't observe a practical difference between 7mm 160 gr bullet at 2600 fps and .308 165 gr bullet at 2650-2800 fps
Same goes for the 7mm 175 gr. at 2500 fps, compared with the .308 180 gr. at 2550-2700 fps.
Of the three cartridges, I actually prefer the .308 for it's accuracy, low recoil and low muzzle blast. Which of the three I bring hunting is determined mostly by the rifle, not the cartridge.
My actual favourite cartridge in this class is the 7x64. ( I own three of them) If comparing fine details, The 7x64 is faster than the 7x57, chambered in a better variety of excellent modern rifles, and is available in a much wider variety of good factory loaded ammunition than is the old 7x57. It also shoots flatter with longer retained energy than the .30-06 with the same bullet weight, with no more recoil and with slightly better penetration due to the 7mm bullets higher sectional density.

 

[Tra3]

Hmm. Take the one of those three rifles with the best scope.
When it really is apples to apples, the rifle with the better scope is the one that will probably get picked first.
If scope swapping is easy enough, then use the most common caliber. (Which is the .30-06)

Realistically, what most of us do, is continue to overthink the question, then buy yet another rifle in a different, bigger caliber and take that new one. (But with the best scope.)

 

[BeeMaa]

30-06, but I have reservations about taking just one rifle if it’s a .30 caliber for an African safari.

Cape buffalo is ALWAYS on the menu in Africa and having a rifle capable of taking it (legally) should be part of the plan. The 375H&H is the 30-06 of Africa and DG legal across the board.

For a one gun safari, the 375H&H, 416RM or 404J are just about perfect IMO. Premium softs (Barnes TSX/Swift A-Frames/Norma Oryx/Federal TBBC) for most things with solids (Woodleigh Hydro/CEB Safari Solids) for the T10 and elephant.

Probably not what you want to hear, but if you are interested in hunting Africa…you will eventually be falling into these mid and big bores. Besides, it gives you a new project to work on between now and your upcoming safari.

 

[Rare Breed]

30-06, but I have reservations about taking just one rifle if it’s a .30 caliber for an African safari.

Cape buffalo is ALWAYS on the menu in Africa and having a rifle capable of taking it (legally) should be part of the plan. The 375H&H is the 30-06 of Africa and DG legal across the board.

For a one gun safari, the 375H&H, 416RM or 404J are just about perfect IMO. Premium softs (Barnes TSX/Swift A-Frames/Norma Oryx/Federal TBBC) for most things with solids (Woodleigh Hydro/CEB Safari Solids) for the T10 and elephant.

Probably not what you want to hear, but if you are interested in hunting Africa…you will eventually be falling into these mid and big bores. Besides, it gives you a new project to work on between now and your upcoming safari.

I agree with @BeeMaa if you are only taking one rifle. After my many safari’s I now always take my 470 NE DR and my 30-06 and feel there is nothing in Africa I can’t take