The Penetration Capability of the 416 Rigby

[Backyardsniper]

There is often a lot of discussion on here about the capabilities and various attributes of different calibers. One I have seen often is the 375 vs 416. I have accidentally found an interesting source of real world information on this topic.

I was bored a few days ago, flipping through youtube, researching the possible purchase of a 500 smith&wesson. This caliber happens to be a favorite of the Kentucky Ballistics guy on youtube. You know how it is, one video leads to another and then down the rabbit hole. This guy has a ton of different firearms at his disposal. He mainly just shoots and destroys various items from old armored trucks to safes and assorted types of body armor. In doing so he always shoots them with his "elephant rifles" and often will start with a 375 and work all the way through 416, 470, 500 nitro, 577, all the favorites.

After watching quite a few of his videos there was one very noticeable common denominator and that was when it comes to penetration the 416 rigby is king! It shot completely through several different items that stopped all the others. The 416 obviously has excellent sectional density as well as plenty of horsepower to drive that bullet north of 2400fps and that is the reason for this but, it was very interesting to see them all shot side by side and to be able to view the impacts through the slow motion camera.

 

[Backyardsniper]

There are several videos but here is a link to one of them.

 

[Backyardsniper]

 

[Luvthunt]

Backs up Taylor, Sanchez etc.belief in the 416 Rigby.

 

[BourbonTrail]

There is often a lot of discussion on here about the capabilities and various attributes of different calibers. One I have seen often is the 375 vs 416. I have accidentally found an interesting source of real world information on this topic.

I was bored a few days ago, flipping through youtube, researching the possible purchase of a 500 smith&wesson. This caliber happens to be a favorite of the Kentucky Ballistics guy on youtube. You know how it is, one video leads to another and then down the rabbit hole. This guy has a ton of different firearms at his disposal. He mainly just shoots and destroys various items from old armored trucks to safes and assorted types of body armor. In doing so he always shoots them with his "elephant rifles" and often will start with a 375 and work all the way through 416, 470, 500 nitro, 577, all the favorites.

After watching quite a few of his videos there was one very noticeable common denominator and that was when it comes to penetration the 416 rigby is king! It shot completely through several different items that stopped all the others. The 416 obviously has excellent sectional density as well as plenty of horsepower to drive that bullet north of 2400fps and that is the reason for this but, it was very interesting to see them all shot side by side and to be able to view the impacts through the slow motion camera.

Most of his stuff is just clowning around, but there are some interesting performance insights in those videos. I like slow motion recoil videos with various calibers.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

From countless readings I thought for years that a .416 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps would penetrate deeper than a .458 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps. But, our @michael458 provided his test results with photographs. He proved that the penetration of the two is much the same. I was wrong... Hopefully he will join the conversation.

Perhaps using bullets available during John Taylor's time the .416 would penetrate deeper than a .458. Today's monometal bullets with 65% meplat are much better than those of 50 or more years ago.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Yep, you definitely have to weed through the unnecessary stuff to get down to the actual info you are looking for.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Bank vaults and ballistic shields aren’t the same as elephants, therefore the tests will be different.

 

[coreydb]

I visit the same rabbit holes for idle curiosity and entertainment, but that's the extent of it. If I tried shooting one of those shoulder-fired cannons, my shoulder would be the ballistic gelatin.

 

[ftrovato]

I think we all need to head to Africa with a bunch of premium monolithic solids and do some extensive testing and share our results! ;-)

 

[michael458]

From countless readings I thought for years that a .416 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps would penetrate deeper than a .458 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps. But, our @michael458 provided his test results with photographs. He proved that the penetration of the two is much the same. I was wrong... Hopefully he will join the conversation.

Perhaps using bullets available during John Taylor's time the .416 would penetrate deeper than a .458. Today's monometal bullets with 65% meplat are much better than those of 50 or more years ago.

.416 Caliber Solids......... this is our discussion and depth of penetration.............

Good Morning Mark and group........

.416 is an odd duck when evaluating Solid Terminal Performance. For the heavies I am not so much of a 416 caliber fan, I much prefer .458 to .500, and throw in .510 caliber as well. I see 416 as a heavy medium actually. This begins to show up somewhat with Meplat Size........

Most of you understand meplat size and its relationship to driving deep and straight. 65% meplat of caliber is the "Magic" Meplat Size, that is the #1 Factor in Stable Terminal Penetration of Solids.

This is also true with .416 caliber, at weights less than 400 gr. Most Twist rates in .416 caliber are 1:14 or 1:16 and sometimes maybe even slower. Even a 65% Meplat and proper Nose Profile 400 is not fully 100% stable for the duration of penetration, and will go somewhat unstable in the last 10%-5% of total depth of penetration. Up that twist rate to 1:12, then the 400s are fully stable to 100% of their total depth of penetration. So even a proper design 400, needs some of the other Factors to kick in, twist rate and velocity coming to top of mind.

Nose profile is sensitive at .416 caliber as well. Lets look at a few different Nose Profiles............

The Cartridge on far left is a 458 B&M..... with old style North Fork........ Center to far right is 416 B&M and 416 Rigby ........ FYI.......

Starting with a very poorly designed RN FMJ............

In the 416 B&M the 400 Barnes needed a little more velocity and little faster twist rate. 416 B&Ms come with 1:14.

Dropping weight to 350 gr and increasing velocity we see more stable performance.......

Moving to 416 Remington we see pretty much the same performance as 416 Rigby......

And a few examples of other Solids........

Now lets take a look at the Cutting Edge 400 gr #13 Solid in 416 B&M....... The first test with a 1:14 Twist Rate, and the second test with 1:12 Twist Rate.........

Pretty easy to figure out that 1:12 Twist Rate is much more stable, even with a proper design Nose Profile and Meplat Size......... In this test, Twist Rate becomes very important with the 400 weight class.

Lets try this one more time, with a 400 gr CEB #13 and 1:14 twist rate, but lets add some velocity to the equation and see what happens...............

In our work here we believe that "Meplat Size Matters", actual physical size. Regardless of Meplat of Caliber, a .416 67% meplat is actual .2787 across the top........ a .458 caliber 67% meplat is .30686 across the top and .500 caliber is .335 across the top. I know for a fact that .458+ at 65% meplat of caliber or better will actually self stabilize during terminals to at least 90% of total depth of penetration, that is with NO RIFLING ENGAGEMENT. I do not believe a .416 can do that.

Total depth of penetration, the 400 CEBs above at 2440 fps to 76 inches is about as deep as anything I have tested here, with a 525 gr .500 caliber nearly equal along with a 900 gr .620 caliber at 2161 fps, both of these Cutting Edge #13s.......

In .458 caliber we have never tested the 500 gr CEB #13s, I never seen a reason for them, I did test 480s and of course the 450 #13s, and in all my field work with buffalo, hippo and elephant used the 450 #13 Solids extensively.

Todays more modern up to date North Fork, developed at the same time as the CEB #13 is also a remarkable Solid, as you can see a very close resemblance to the #13...........

Is 416 the King of Penetration?............... I don't think so, if I were to push these 450 gr CEB or North Forks to 2400-2500 fps, they would equal what you see above. Same with .500 caliber or others..

 

[coreydb]

Oh yeah! a loooong and extensive testing

 

[coreydb]

My joking aside, If you can get them, Impala bullets have an extraordinary penetration/kill history. They are only made in South Africa though.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Commander David Enderby Blunt records this in the 1920s while he was an elephant control officer in Tanganyika.

It’s always so amazing that how things always come full circle in the end.

It took us roughly a hundred years to finally determine that the old timers were indeed correct in their field assessments.

 

[CZDiesel]

.416 Caliber Solids......... this is our discussion and depth of penetration.............

Good Morning Mark and group........

.416 is an odd duck when evaluating Solid Terminal Performance. For the heavies I am not so much of a 416 caliber fan, I much prefer .458 to .500, and throw in .510 caliber as well. I see 416 as a heavy medium actually. This begins to show up somewhat with Meplat Size........

Most of you understand meplat size and its relationship to driving deep and straight. 65% meplat of caliber is the "Magic" Meplat Size, that is the #1 Factor in Stable Terminal Penetration of Solids.

This is also true with .416 caliber, at weights less than 400 gr. Most Twist rates in .416 caliber are 1:14 or 1:16 and sometimes maybe even slower. Even a 65% Meplat and proper Nose Profile 400 is not fully 100% stable for the duration of penetration, and will go somewhat unstable in the last 10%-5% of total depth of penetration. Up that twist rate to 1:12, then the 400s are fully stable to 100% of their total depth of penetration. So even a proper design 400, needs some of the other Factors to kick in, twist rate and velocity coming to top of mind.

Nose profile is sensitive at .416 caliber as well. Lets look at a few different Nose Profiles............

The Cartridge on far left is a 458 B&M..... with old style North Fork........ Center to far right is 416 B&M and 416 Rigby ........ FYI.......

View attachment 670742

Starting with a very poorly designed RN FMJ............

View attachment 670741

View attachment 670743

View attachment 670744

View attachment 670745

View attachment 670748

View attachment 670749

In the 416 B&M the 400 Barnes needed a little more velocity and little faster twist rate. 416 B&Ms come with 1:14.

View attachment 670750

Dropping weight to 350 gr and increasing velocity we see more stable performance.......

View attachment 670740

Moving to 416 Remington we see pretty much the same performance as 416 Rigby......

View attachment 670751

And a few examples of other Solids........

View attachment 670747

View attachment 670746

Now lets take a look at the Cutting Edge 400 gr #13 Solid in 416 B&M....... The first test with a 1:14 Twist Rate, and the second test with 1:12 Twist Rate.........

View attachment 670755

View attachment 670756

Pretty easy to figure out that 1:12 Twist Rate is much more stable, even with a proper design Nose Profile and Meplat Size......... In this test, Twist Rate becomes very important with the 400 weight class.

Lets try this one more time, with a 400 gr CEB #13 and 1:14 twist rate, but lets add some velocity to the equation and see what happens...............

View attachment 670757


In our work here we believe that "Meplat Size Matters", actual physical size. Regardless of Meplat of Caliber, a .416 67% meplat is actual .2787 across the top........ a .458 caliber 67% meplat is .30686 across the top and .500 caliber is .335 across the top. I know for a fact that .458+ at 65% meplat of caliber or better will actually self stabilize during terminals to at least 90% of total depth of penetration, that is with NO RIFLING ENGAGEMENT. I do not believe a .416 can do that.

Total depth of penetration, the 400 CEBs above at 2440 fps to 76 inches is about as deep as anything I have tested here, with a 525 gr .500 caliber nearly equal along with a 900 gr .620 caliber at 2161 fps, both of these Cutting Edge #13s.......

In .458 caliber we have never tested the 500 gr CEB #13s, I never seen a reason for them, I did test 480s and of course the 450 #13s, and in all my field work with buffalo, hippo and elephant used the 450 #13 Solids extensively.

View attachment 670754

View attachment 670753

View attachment 670752

Todays more modern up to date North Fork, developed at the same time as the CEB #13 is also a remarkable Solid, as you can see a very close resemblance to the #13...........

View attachment 670738

Is 416 the King of Penetration?............... I don't think so, if I were to push these 450 gr CEB or North Forks to 2400-2500 fps, they would equal what you see above. Same with .500 caliber or others..

View attachment 670739

View attachment 670758

I think it’s just the math we see here. Math is math…
Also, from what I understand it is the pressure bubble that the meplat causes in front of it allowing for added penetration and also a larger wound cavity. So how would, in your opinion, the cup points penetrate vs the 65% flat meplat?

 

[318AE]

From countless readings I thought for years that a .416 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps would penetrate deeper than a .458 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps. But, our @michael458 provided his test results with photographs. He proved that the penetration of the two is much the same. I was wrong... Hopefully he will join the conversation.

Perhaps using bullets available during John Taylor's time the .416 would penetrate deeper than a .458. Today's monometal bullets with 65% meplat are much better than those of 50 or more years ago.

I think you’re spot on. While Taylor wrote the seminal tome, he was a product of a time in which bullets were often proprietary to cartridge and bullet construction or terminal performance varied greatly.

I’ve had PHs tell me that nothing penetrates like a 416 Rigby, and they’ve seen them go diagonally through an elephant. At some point, enough is enough, as we aren’t taking Texas heart shots on a blue whale .

At least were talking about something relevant, like penetration and terminal performance, and not “powder efficiency”.

 

[DLSJR]

Not a scientific test at all, but illustrative of the straight line penetration ability of a .416 400 grain Cutting Edge solid. I was shooting my .416 Hoffman at nearly 2,400 fps, so balistically the same as .416 Rigby. This Cutting Edge solid was recovered from a hippo bull I shot quartering hard away on a dead run at about 40 yards. Bullet entered about halfway back, transited about 18” of spine and was found lodged in the back of the skull. We figured total penetration was 4 1/2 feet or more. I could reload it and shoot it again.

 

[Bejane]

416 Rigby and Remington Mag shoot the same bullet weight at the same velocity. Performance is the same.

A retired PH friend told me he used to use a 470 for most backups, but switched to a 416, because when backing up or shooting wounded DG he could penetrate DG game at any distance at an angle with the 416 better.

470 is same ballistics as 458WM, it's just a double rifle version

modern day bullets such at Woodleigh hydro have ensured a 458WM is equally sufficient. Have seen broad side pass through on Buff (not ideal) and full length penetration from port hole to chest on Buff with it. Have seen same with Hornady and A square monolithic solids. I'm sure cutting edge and other brass monos will do the same

 

[CZDiesel]

416 Rigby and Remington Mag shoot the same bullet weight at the same velocity. Performance is the same.

A retired PH friend told me he used to use a 470 for most backups, but switched to a 416, because when backing up or shooting wounded DG he could penetrate DG game at any distance at an angle with the 416 better.

470 is same ballistics as 458WM, it's just a double rifle version

modern day bullets such at Woodleigh hydro have ensured a 458WM is equally sufficient. Have seen broad side pass through on Buff (not ideal) and full length penetration from port hole to chest on Buff with it. Have seen same with Hornady and A square monolithic solids. I'm sure cutting edge and other brass monos will do the same

Funny my PH has told me the exact opposite lol When he asked me what I was bringing for a Elephant/Buff hunt I told him that I have a 375, 416, and 458 and he said without hesitation bring the 458 if you can shoot it well…
When I asked why he told me that both the penetration and impact of the 500gr round is definitely better than the 375 or 416…
But he did go on to say bring the one you can shoot the best because they all will get the job done!

 

[michael458]

I think it’s just the math we see here. Math is math…
Also, from what I understand it is the pressure bubble that the meplat causes in front of it allowing for added penetration and also a larger wound cavity. So how would, in your opinion, the cup points penetrate vs the 65% flat meplat?

Not opinion, Fact.

Cup Points, Woodleigh Hydro, Lehigh Extreme are all examples of;

Limited Penetration Solids

Cup Points have large concave noses, or meplats. In surface area meplat size is actually increased, in relation to its caliber. When my friend John owned part of North Fork, on one of his visits here with me he explained it this way; "The Cup Point Fools the Medium/Tissue into thinking the meplat is far larger, than the caliber of the projectile".................

What happens to the depth of penetration when you increase the size of the Meplat? Anyone Know? Guess? We know that 65% Meplat of Caliber is required to make the bullet stable during terminals. As we increase meplat size above 65%-70% we see decrease in depth of penetration, and increased tissue destruction up front. Simple and logical.

Factor #3 of the "8 Factors of Solid Penetration" comes into play with Limited Penetration Solids as well......Construction and Material. As you see above, the Copper CPS has flowed, moved and somewhat expanded in this .458 caliber test, this also has an effect on depth of penetration, and up front destruction of tissue. In this 416 test, flow and movement is more evident by the increased velocity, simple, Copper Is Softer than brass, and will flow faster.

Brass is harder, and does not flow as easy as copper, but at some point it will flow and move as well. Since this brass Hydro did not flow or move, expand or distort, it penetrates some deeper than the copper CPS...........

John at North Fork was an expert in manipulating the Cup Point Solids, when we tested the two .458 caliber Cup Points, that were designed for the 45/70 I really loved the effect these bullets had. They Expanded! I called them "ECPS", Expanding Cup Point Solids.

At moderate velocities these bullets performed......

They were so effective, so good, I had John develop .500 caliber versions for my various .500 caliber cartridges..............

I shot a couple of buffalo with the 450 version in 500 MDM and it is Bang Flop... no bullets recovered, exited on both.

My eldest Son shot a big bruiser of a Aussie Buffalo with his 50 Super Short, and it hammered that buffalo to the dirt, he went about 10 steps and done.........

Later I developed a 474 caliber B&M and had John do the same thing in .474 caliber........ I also shot a great Aussie buffalo with the 425 NF ECPS with great effect, no bullets recovered.........

Later tests with Peregrine Expanding Solids worked basically the same way, and would be superb in the role of hammering buffalo...........

Another Example of Limited Penetration Solids is the Lehigh Extremes. These bullets perform, exactly as described and punch way above their weight class, both these tests are well into Buffalo Capable .............

With the Facts presented, you can now form your own "Opinion" as to how a CPS compares with a proper designed 65% + Meplat Solid..............