The regulation process begins

[Backyardsniper]

I started today with the Krieghoff. Initially started with RL 22, with the 500 gr CEB solids. I was able to get it into the 3" range at 60 yards with this powder. The gun appears to like these bullets right in the 2070-2080 fps. With 110 grains I was getting about 3" at roughly 2100 fps. 112 grains gave me 2150 but the bullets were crossing.s

I switches to H4350 at 94 grains with a piece of foam backer rod for filler. I believe that is where my load is going to be for the CEB solids. About 2" or a little less, recoil is very manageable.

I will try the Raptors and the Swift A frames next. I also have a bunch of Barnes TSX that I may attempt to work up a load with for practice, or maybe hunting if they shoot good.
The double trigger definitely takes some getting used to!

 

[zephyr]

are you shooting from a Bench, Sticks ??
You should support the barrels in your hand and not lay them on a bag or sticks

 

[zephyr]

Do you have Greame Wrights Book ?

 

[Backyardsniper]

are you shooting from a Bench, Sticks ??
You should support the barrels in your hand and not lay them on a bag or sticks

I have a sand bag sitting on my retaining wall. Shooting standing resting the forearm of the rifle on the sandbag

 

[Backyardsniper]

Do you have Greame Wrights Book ?

I do not, but I very much wish I did.
I just fired this group at 25 yards off my shooting sticks. The round that went high was the left barrel on the first pair. I pulled it, I knew it when I did it. I wobbled on the sticks as was getting ready to crack it off. None the less I believe this load is sufficient. 2080fps with the CEB solids. I'm going to shoot a few more in the future and see if it is necessary to move the sight but I think it is probably fine like it is. I will start on the A frames in a fee days. Those 4 rounds made it an even 20 rounds today so I will probably give my shoulder a break for a day or two.

 

[zephyr]

Some Ramblings.... Forgive me
Everything effects the Regulation of a Double Rifle...
It has to do with time the bullet spends in the barrel and recoil management
Time in Barrel... Bullet type and Velocity
When a Double is fired the right barrel goes up and to the right, the left barrel up and to the left..
If your POI is high and wide of POA with both barrels you can sometimes bring the POI down and closer with an increase of velocity or Bullet type(time in barrel).
Recoil Management..
Different body types will effect Point of Impact, changing a recoil pad will effect POI, putting a scope on a Double will effect POI, how one holds the gun and the barrels will effect POI...
Barrels will recoil differently if they are sitting on a sand bag of resting or gripped in the palm of your hand...
You are looking for consistency in how you hold the gun to give consistency at the target you will not always have a wall or sticks when you shoot your double but you will always have your front hand in the same place under the barrels no matter what shooting position you are in or what platform you are shooting from
I am a big fan of CEB bullets and shoot their Solids and Raptors in my 450NE and all of my other Big Bores
Double Triggers ... practice ... Double triggers are true selective triggers, in a double rifle you may have a soft in the right barrel and a solid in the left there may come a time when you may have to choose which barrel needs to shot first...
some will say buy a SxS shotgun with double triggers and shoot skeet with it, on the stations they throw doubles alternate sometimes shoot back trigger front trigger thans front trigger back trigger...
Learn to shoot the front trigger first on a double
Since you are reloading consider reduced loads with either Trailboss or 5744 and cast bullets after a shooting session shooting reduced loads will re-establish proper muscle memory and you get to practice trigger drills and reloading drills

 

[Backyardsniper]

Some Ramblings.... Forgive me
Everything effects the Regulation of a Double Rifle...
It has to do with time the bullet spends in the barrel and recoil management
Time in Barrel... Bullet type and Velocity
When a Double is fired the right barrel goes up and to the right, the left barrel up and to the left..
If your POI is high and wide of POA with both barrels you can sometimes bring the POI down and closer with an increase of velocity or Bullet type(time in barrel).
Recoil Management..
Different body types will effect Point of Impact, changing a recoil pad will effect POI, putting a scope on a Double will effect POI, how one holds the gun and the barrels will effect POI...
Barrels will recoil differently if they are sitting on a sand bag of resting or gripped in the palm of your hand...
You are looking for consistency in how you hold the gun to give consistency at the target you will not always have a wall or sticks when you shoot your double but you will always have your front hand in the same place under the barrels no matter what shooting position you are in or what platform you are shooting from
I am a big fan of CEB bullets and shoot their Solids and Raptors in my 450NE and all of my other Big Bores
Double Triggers ... practice ... Double triggers are true selective triggers, in a double rifle you may have a soft in the right barrel and a solid in the left there may come a time when you may have to choose which barrel needs to shot first...
some will say buy a SxS shotgun with double triggers and shoot skeet with it, on the stations they throw doubles alternate sometimes shoot back trigger front trigger thans front trigger back trigger...
Learn to shoot the front trigger first on a double
Since you are reloading consider reduced loads with either Trailboss or 5744 and cast bullets after a shooting session shooting reduced loads will re-establish proper muscle memory and you get to practice trigger drills and reloading drills

Thanks, all of that makes sense. What i have been doing is sitting a sand bag on the retaining wall but I do use my hand under the gun, gripping the fore end as usual and then the middle of the rifle is laying on the bag, I also shot it off the sticks to double check. I like the CEB as well, have you found you need to change the load much between the solids and Raptors because of the difference in the weight?
I like the Ads shotgun idea a lot as well as the finishing up a shooting session with the reduced loads. I will try to find some trail boss.
Thanks for the ideas. I will keep you all updates as I go and we will see how this project turns out.

 

[zephyr]

Don't overlook 5744
CEB designed their combinations Solid/Raptor's to have the same bearing service so the impact change is minor ... but can always "tweek"

 

[Backyardsniper]

Don't overlook 5744
CEB designed their combinations Solid/Raptor's to have the same bearing service so the impact change is minor ... but can always "tweek"

Roger that. I have seen the 5744 available a couple of times. I will try to pick some up.

 

[zephyr]

Forgive me if this old information...
Attached is the process for finding the starting load for Trailboss
Use the same process for 5744 except the multiplier is .40
Use a Magnum rifle Primer
In Terry Wieland's book Dangerous Game Rifles he is very fond of 5744 for reduced loads
**NEVER*** compress these loads
They will shoot to a different POI put it is not that important... I flip up my 200 yard leave on my Double and it gets me closer .. with my 505 I just hold in a different place

 

[Backyardsniper]

T

Forgive me if this old information...
Attached is the process for finding the starting load for Trailboss
Use the same process for 5744 except the multiplier is .40
Use a Magnum rifle Primer
In Terry Wieland's book Dangerous Game Rifles he is very fond of 5744 for reduced loads
**NEVER*** compress these loads
They will shoot to a different POI put it is not that important... I flip up my 200 yard leave on my Double and it gets me closer .. with my 505 I just hold in a different place

Thanks a bunch, I was always Leary of the 5744 because I didn't know what I was doing with it. So you basically just fill the case, but don't compress it and that is the maximum load. I will definitely track some of this down. If you could find some cheaper cast bullets that would be some real fun.

 

[zephyr]

Caution.... The Max load will change with different projectiles

 

[frog stealer]

T

Thanks a bunch, I was always Leary of the 5744 because I didn't know what I was doing with it. So you basically just fill the case, but don't compress it and that is the maximum load. I will definitely track some of this down. If you could find some cheaper cast bullets that would be some real fun.

Be careful, you can fill the case up to the base of the bullet for max load with trailboss. If you do this with 5744, you will likely have a very over-pressure situation. A max load for 5744 is usually about 60% of a full case. Reach out to hodgdon and they will provide correct min and max loads with 5744.

 

[zephyr]

Be careful, you can fill the case up to the base of the bullet for max load with trailboss. If you do this with 5744, you will likely have a very over-pressure situation. A max load for 5744 is usually about 60% of a full case. Reach out to hodgdon and they will provide correct min and max loads with 5744.

I agree you can never be too safe and should always follow up on any source when it comes to reloading info ...
In two published sources that I have by Terry Wieland his book Dagerous Game Rifles and Handloader #300 2017, He uses the same procedure to find a reduced load using 5744 as the attached file for Trailboss... In Fact he prefers 5744 to Trailboss for reduced loads

 

[frog stealer]

I agree you can never be too safe and should always follow up on any source when it comes to reloading info ...
In two published sources that I have by Terry Wieland his book Dagerous Game Rifles and Handloader #300 2017, He uses the same procedure to find a reduced load using 5744 as the attached file for Trailboss... In Fact he prefers 5744 to Trailboss for reduced loads

The devil is always in the details. Here is the page from Wieland’s book, clearly stating that a maximum load with 5744 is NOT at 100% load density:

And I’ll take it one step further: using quickload software, a .470 nitro with 500 grain bullet, loaded with 5744 at 100% load density produces about 135,000 psi, about three times CIP maximum pressure.

 

[Backyardsniper]

I'm assuming with this 5744 you need to use a foam filler like you do with regular loads that don't fill the case?

 

[frog stealer]

I'm assuming with this 5744 you need to use a foam filler like you do with regular loads that don't fill the case?

Nope, 5744 doesn’t need foam filler, unless specifically directed by hodgdon. The only cartridge (so far) that hodgdon has directed me to use a filler was for the .577 Nitro.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Nope, 5744 doesn’t need foam filler, unless specifically directed by hodgdon. The only cartridge (so far) that hodgdon has directed me to use a filler was for the .577 Nitro.

Really! Well that is handy, no issues with the powder rolling around in the case and having hang fires or anything? That is really handy, I was always scared to mess with the stuff because.I was afraid of having to use fillers. I'm gonna pick me up a jug of that the next time I see it in stock. I have about 300 barnes TSX for that 470 and I can work up a reduced with those for plinking. That will be awesome.

 

[Dean2]

Cast bullets and Trail Boss loads make wonderful practice rounds with very low recoil. A guy can get in a lot of shooting practice for low cost and no shoulder pain. They also make great loads for shooting hogs, so you get live target and quick reload practice. I use Trail Boss and Cast in a lot of heavy recoil rounds, including the 460 Weatherby. With Express sights, the 200 or 300 yard leaf will usually put you on target at 50 and 100.

 

[frog stealer]

Really! Well that is handy, no issues with the powder rolling around in the case and having hang fires or anything? That is really handy, I was always scared to mess with the stuff because.I was afraid of having to use fillers. I'm gonna pick me up a jug of that the next time I see it in stock. I have about 300 barnes TSX for that 470 and I can work up a reduced with those for plinking. That will be awesome.

I’ve never had any issues with hangfires, but there is one thing I don’t like about 5744, and that is the un-burnt powder kernels on the low pressure loads. While they don’t affect accuracy, if they manage to get between the case and the chamber on your next round, you will get little indentations shaped like a powder kernel in your brass upon firing the next round. Hodgdon says once you get above 18k psi, the powder kernels disappear.