TSS ammo...is it worth it?

[Ray B]

it's noted that TSS is hard, which means that it doesn't matter what it costs or how effective it is- I won't be shooting any through the old M21.

 

[Red Leg]

Yes I know, it's bismuth for you. But bismuth has a density around 9.6 g/cc...quite the handicap compared to TSS at 18. I know, I know...older firearms can't handle this new fangled TSS so you have to dance with the one you came with.

I fire TSS and its ilk (primarily pure Kent tungsten matrix) in my favorite modern waterfowl gun - a 12 Bore Connecticut Shotgun SxS and the classics. Handles it beautifully. #6 are perfect for ducks and #2 will crunch geese.

Kent Cartridge Guide to Waterfowl Loads | Ducks Unlimited

Get insights into waterfowl loads with the Kent Cartridge guide. Discover information about different shotgun shell loads, shot sizes, and payloads specifically designed for waterfowl hunting.

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[Wyatt Smith]

This is tough and it's the real source of this entire debate...is it worth it? Worth it to you?

I suspect if more people were exposed to exactly what TSS is capable of...they would at least consider buying a box to try them out.

It’s quite possible you are correct. A lot of people, myself included, have never fired anything but lead or steel. It would be hard to convince them that something could potentially be worth 5-10 times more money.
A lot of people will do something the hard way because “That’s the way I’ve always done it”, or use one product because “That’s what I’ve always used”. I find that stubbornness can and will stand in the way of progress.

 

[BeeMaa]

I fire TSS and its ilk (primarily pure Kent tungsten matrix) in my favorite modern waterfowl gun - a 12 Bore Connecticut Shotgun SxS and the classics. Handles it beautifully. #6 are perfect for ducks and #2 will crunch geese.

Kent Cartridge Guide to Waterfowl Loads | Ducks Unlimited

Get insights into waterfowl loads with the Kent Cartridge guide. Discover information about different shotgun shell loads, shot sizes, and payloads specifically designed for waterfowl hunting.

www.ducks.org

The Kent Tungsten Matrix (10.8 g/cc) is slightly less dense than lead (11 g/cc). I’d be interested to see how these loads pattern at 40 yards and what choke you are using.

 

[Dukeisok]

Do you load 12 gauge tss?

I have in the past byut I found the federal waterfowl tss ammo at a time when they were priced more reasonably. The federal waterfowl loads I found mix steel and tss increasing effectiveness and reducing cost. I haven't found a full payload of 12 gauge necessary for any kind of hunting.

 

[Dukeisok]

@ questions: 1, Is the TSS soft enough to not damage thin barrels?
2. How does one figure the lead necessary to hit a duck at 60+ yards? 2', due to increase density I presume the shot holds it's velocity better than other less dense shots.

1. Tss is extremely hard. You need a full coverage shot cup to protect any barrel (even modern hardened steel) and i would not dream of using it through my classic lc Smith. Bismuth for the Smith (but I don't duck hunt with it so lead is fine). I think Kent was making polymerized tungsten loads at one time (Kent tungsten matrix) that use a plastic binder instead of solid tungsten pellets and render the pellets essentially the same density as lead but soft enough for most gun barrels.

2. I can't hit a flying bird at 70 yards even if the shot is effective. Tungsten is twice as dense as lead so the pellets don't spread out like normal. Patterns tend to be extremely dense for a given choke. When shooting tungsten, I run a cylinder choke and the natural pattern is essentially an improved modified/ almost a full. This is another reason some companies mix tungsten and steel.

 

[Dukeisok]

I will say that one of the first guys to really figure a lot of this out is Hal Abbot. He has been importing pure tss for more than a decade (unfortunately from China as tungsten is considered a strategic metal in the US and not sold to civilians) and has worked up and pressure tested all the loads I use. If you buy shot from him he will give you his load data but asks you to keep it confidential. He sells tss from 10.5 shot all the way to buckshot. It appears that he also just started selling his own shells and they are cheaper than other options. He is a knowledgeable guy instrumental in bringing tss to the US who has probably killed more animals with tss than anyone else. His shell website is https://tssshot.com/

And he lives about an hour away from me in NC. He is on a lot of forums under the handle hawglips

I have found him quite helpful in my foray into tss. I have his email too if anyone is interested.

As for me, tss is used for my sons waterfowl loads and for turkey hunting (low volume) but I still load up steel given the cost when I go for ducks. It hurts to miss when every miss is 5 dollars.

 

[Dukeisok]

The engineer in me geeks out over this a little bit. I would say that tss requires different thinking similar to how monometal bullets changed thinking for rifles. Ballistic products sells kpy ballistics software that allows you to put numbers on the performance of this stuff. Basically, density in round shot is analogous to bc for a rifle bullet. It deflects less with wind and it maintains velocity longer. In terms of penetration, pellet density is similar to sectional density. Number 9 tss outpenetrates number 5 lead all day long. Pellet numbers are what determine pattern density and because small pellets allow so many more in a shot shell, you can use far less payload. I really don't understand the commercial loads of 2 Oz of number 9 for turkey. That is similar to shooting a klipspringer with a 470ne. Sure you can do it but at enormous cost and recoil. You can attain excellent turkey patterns with 1 oz number 9 or number 8 (if required by law) in a small bore shotgun. A pellet at 1200fps doesn't know if it came from a .410 or a 10 gauge. The only difference is payload.

 

[Pheroze]

Tungsten is a new experience for me, so these are just my observations. I used Kent Tungsten Matrix this year. The admittedly limited harvest showed that the pellets passed through. I haven't found any shot in the ducks we have eaten. If TSS is more expensive, and hard enough to harm barrels, I don't see it benefit for ducks.

I have TSS loads for turkey hunting. Anything else hit at 10 yards with a 12G dies. Turkeys seem to get knocked down but keep up their fight! They are really tough and maybe TSS is beneficial with these fellas.

 

[Red Leg]

I sh

The Kent Tungsten Matrix (10.8 g/cc) is slightly less dense than lead (11 g/cc). I’d be interested to see how these loads pattern at 40 yards and what choke you are using.

I shoot Tungsten matrix just like lead. In the field I have found it essentially indistinguishable to lead. And I should note that I am old enough to have done all my waterfowl guiding back in the day of lead shot. I have not used pure Tungsten because it represents the same hazard to older guns as does steel.

 

[thriller]

I use tss 7 for turkey and it is devastating out to about 70 yards.

 

[crs]

My , how complicated bird hunting has become!
It used to be that if you shot the bird in the head with lead, it came down dead.
That may still be true for upland game and I do not like duck or goose hunting, so I do not know. On my only goose hunt experience, I was helping a hunter even older than myself and so only fired one shot at a goose. That bird had already run the gauntlet and was exiting stage left at 50+ yards so no one shot any more. I stood up , lead the bird and fired with the full choke barrel of my Parker 12 ga, and down it came.
That result was common for dove with my 20 ga Parker, so I tried it on the goose. That bird carcass sat in our freezer until we found a proper recipe and cooked it for a holiday meal main course- delicious!
I may still have the recipe if anyone is interested.

 

[crs]

Thriller,
Here is a pic if my turkey gun taken on a New Mexico prairie dog shoot after the Pronghorn were in the cooler:

That is a .22 Hornet over 3 inch 12 gauge. It is good on Turkey and prairie dogs out to 150 yards. Also any coon or coyote sized varmints. I also have a 45-70 insert barrel and 300 grain ammo should any deer or big and bad critters show up.

 

[Firebird]

At $10 a pop it would sure be expensive every time you miss-or if you hit everything you aim at you are still constrained by “the limit.” If I went after big eiders I would use it but for local ducks and geese I just don’t see the need. Here is my (and my brother) weekend-less than a box of 3 inch steel and full limit of ducks and geese per man. A big part of hunting is getting them to work and be within your comfortable range.

 

[leslie hetrick]

i like and use federal tss shells and also use long beard shells, both have there place in turkey hunting. i like to limite my shots to 35 yards and closer, the fun for me is fooling a long beard into thinking he on his way to romance and to watch them strutt and full fan is it for me. i have left them go when they were not in me range limite. they deserve to be taken cleanly and not wounded to become a coyote meal.

 

[Bearbait1]

I use TSS for turkey hunting because I can carry a light 20ga and kill just as well as I used to with a heavy 12 ga

 

[crs]

Leslie,
This reminds me of several Texas lease properties that were overrun with turkey and they were easy to locate and kill. It was where I learned to hunt turkey and there were many memorable hunts. If they did not come to the call, I went to them and that hide and seek game became challenging. That was one reason that I bought my rifle/shotgun combo Turkey gun with turkey scope- to even the odds.
That gun improved my success rate. My older brother came up regularly for a week of spring turkey hunting and that was a lot like our teenage years.
Back then, I read several books on hunting Turkey, but the one by a Texan named WN Bledsoe was the best and actually the only one a beginning hunter would need. It is a paperback titled The Complete Turkey Hunter and is the smallest such book in my library.
My hunting lease just south of Comanche, in Comanche County was one of the best for turkey, quail, deer, coyote and the occasional Cougar. It became so easy to kill turkey there that I took friends and family and called for them. We also shot gobblers in the fall deer season in order to always have a fresh killed wild turkey for Thanksgiving dinner. My grand son took his wild turkey three years in a row with a single shot .410. Next was his grandmas 20 ga O/U which booked two gobblers. Then I gave him a Weatherby Orion 12 ga and he continues to knock down whatever bird is the target of the hunt.
Good sport, but when it became too easy, I lost interest and went on to other game- exotics in Texas and African game.

 

[BeeMaa]

There will be a new chapter written now that the SBE2 has been sold and the new SBE3 showed up. Pattern testing (with TSS) is in the works. I'll also be testing more of the Hevi-Shot. Results to follow. Until then, enjoy a picture of my latest...

 

[flatwater bill]

Various threads have shown that tungsten shot is new to many AH members. This thread shows that many think "Tungsten" is a generic for one type of shot. It is not. All tungsten shells are far from equal. Dukeisok gives a very good explanation of the benefits of TSS. About the only correct explanation I have ever seen, anywhere. I shoot a lot of Kent Matrix (Impact) and it is great. It is not TSS. Boss loads some TSS, but their copper coated bismuth is a great load at lower cost, and of course, lesser performance. I shoot a little TSS....because it costs so much. It is way better. USFW tests have shown that #7 TSS will kill geese at 90 yards and greater, with the right gun and shooter. And there in lies my problem: I cannot hit geese regularly at long ranges. And for those lesser ranges, I do as well with lesser shells. In fact, lowly steel will answer most people's waterfowling needs. As some have noted, TSS allows one to use a smaller gauge or lighter loading, and still have performance. That's where it shines for me. It makes a 2 3/4 20 ga into a goose buster. 3 years ago I did extensive testing of buckshot stopper loads for carnivores. Nothing even remotely approached the effectiveness of TSS. Example: TSS #T shot will out penetrate hardened hand cast and quenched lead #000 buck at any range (all else being equal). Of course, that's not a bird load, but it gives some comparison of density's effect on the target...............shoot straight......3 misses out of a Benelli drops a thirty dollar bill in blind......FWB

 

[BeeMaa]

@flatwater bill - what do you mean “3 misses out of a Benelli drops a thirty dollar bill in blind”.

3 misses (or hits for that matter) with TSS out of any gun costs $30. You busting chops on my new SBE3?