TSS ammo...is it worth it?

[BeeMaa]

A former neighbor of mine moved to the western edge of Virginia to a beautiful farm. His family have been inviting myself and my friend (know to the internet world as IGS) out for spring turkey for the last few years. To help repay his kindness and invest in our mutual hunting future, we offered to drive out for a working weekend.

The plan was to arrive on Friday and scope things out, cut in some trails on Friday and Saturday. Then maybe we would have time on Sunday to do some pattern testing of our shotguns and have some fun before driving home.

Friday went better than expected and we got a lot of the trails cleared up and started to cut in another one. Before it got dark we headed for the guest house. Once inside IGS hears some honking...I hear it too! We turn and look at each other and simultaneously run for the door. Geese are landing on our friends pond!

A plan is hatched. The pond is about 200 yards long and 50 yards wide. Tall trees cover three sides of the pond, but there is a marshy area on one end that is 50 yards wide. We figure that if the geese are still on the pond in the morning we can have a chance to take them. IGS will go to one side and I'll be on the other. They should take off towards the marsh and offer a passing shot.

I guess it's good that I was thinking ahead and packed some Federal Black Cloud TSS BB/7 loads, not to mention our migratory bird licenses and stamps. This is one of the many reasons I make packing lists. They work!

We have a few drinks that evening and some of the guys who are hanging out think we are crazy. One of them said that if we get any, he would happily take the meat. IGS and I hit the sack dreaming about sky blasting geese.

 

[BeeMaa]

It's 3am on Saturday morning and I'm wide awake...can't sleep. All I can think about is geese. As quietly as I can, I get up and make coffee around 5:30. IGS gets up around 6 and joins me. Sunrise isn't too far off but it's still dark outside when we hear a couple of geese who took off. Unusual for geese to fly before daybreak but it happens. We begin to wonder if any geese will be there.

Well you can't get them from the couch. A half hour before daybreak we leave the house and head in separate directions. I have about 4x the amount of ground to cover that IGS does so I have a pretty quick pace going. We had agreed to text each other when we got into position. I'm in position...no signal. Yep, we are in the sticks with no mobile coverage. Damn it.

I hear the geese on the water and they are alerting. Soft honks, but I still can't see them. I peek around the tall briar and they are swimming away from me...directly towards where IGS is suppose to be. I hope he's able to take a shot. He should be able to see them by now. I walk out from the briars so the geese will go even closer to IGS. It looks like this plan is coming together as I approach the bottom of the marsh.

All of a sudden the geese turn and fly directly towards me to take off. They are favoring the edge of the pond away from me, but it's looking good. The safety comes off as I mount the shotgun. BANG...BANG...BANG and I'm empty.

 

[BeeMaa]

Three birds fall stone dead from the sky. These were passing shots at ~40 yards. The first as they approached, the second at 90 degrees and the third as it flew away.

Unfortunately IGS wasn't able to hear the geese coming towards him because the damn he was hiding behind was blocking the sound. The only thing he heard was them taking off and then my shots.

This was my recipe. Benelli SBE3 with 28" barrel and Carlson's Federal Black Cloud Long Range (FULL) choke. Load was 3" Federal Black Cloud TSS BB/7. I've been shooting this combination with great success on waterfowl.

Now this isn't a pattern test and I'm well aware of that. It is however, real world experience that TSS and a well patterning shotgun make for a deadly combination in the hands of the right shooter. I will not speculate if this shot was possible steel, bismuth or some other lead substitute.

Just to finish the story. The guy who wanted the meat was thrilled to have it. IGS and I finished cutting in trails and the owner cleaned up the small stuff with a bush hog. It was a really good weekend.

 

[BeeMaa]

I posted some shorts on YT of me shooting the same turkey load from 3 completely different shotguns. Thought you guys would get a kick out of watching me burn $50 in ammo on 3 shots.

Let me know which of the three looked the worst.

 

[HankBuck]

Three birds fall stone dead from the sky. These were passing shots at ~40 yards. The first as they approached, the second at 90 degrees and the third as it flew away.

Unfortunately IGS wasn't able to hear the geese coming towards him because the damn he was hiding behind was blocking the sound. The only thing he heard was them taking off and then my shots.

This was my recipe. Benelli SBE3 with 28" barrel and Carlson's Federal Black Cloud Long Range (FULL) choke. Load was 3" Federal Black Cloud TSS BB/7. I've been shooting this combination with great success on waterfowl.

Now this isn't a pattern test and I'm well aware of that. It is however, real world experience that TSS and a well patterning shotgun make for a deadly combination in the hands of the right shooter. I will not speculate if this shot was possible steel, bismuth or some other lead substitute.

Just to finish the story. The guy who wanted the meat was thrilled to have it. IGS and I finished cutting in trails and the owner cleaned up the small stuff with a bush hog. It was a really good weekend.

That was certainly a morning worth getting up Early for —

 

[Tra3]

@BeeMaa was the browning the worst? That is some stout recoil on those shotguns! How would you compare it to the .416?

Nice hunting btw. 3 for 3. If you quit now, you can hold 100% accuracy for 2024!

 

[BeeMaa]

@BeeMaa was the browning the worst? That is some stout recoil on those shotguns! How would you compare it to the .416?

Nice hunting btw. 3 for 3. If you quit now, you can hold 100% accuracy for 2024!

Browning Cynergy was the worst by a good bit. It doesn’t look as bad as the Benelli and Beretta but it is.

Compared to a 416RM, I’ll take the RM every time. The Cynergy was brutal.

The Beretta was the easiest followed closely by the Benelli, not much difference other than the feel of the action. The inertia drive isn’t as smooth as the gas.

 

[randallhebert]

Remington made the HD shells for several years then stopped. They were very impressive. We would kill specklebellys out to 60 yds with 12 gauge 2 3/4 6 shot.

 

[BeeMaa]

Remington made the HD shells for several years then stopped. They were very impressive. We would kill specklebellys out to 60 yds with 12 gauge 2 3/4 6 shot.

2 3/4” shells with #6 shot at 60 yards? Was this before the ban on lead?

EDIT - Disregard, I found them. They are a tungsten blend at 11.6 g/cc. Same density as lead but not quite 18 g/cc that TSS is. BTW - MidwayUSA has them on sale for $40/10 shells.

 

[CJW]

Remington made the HD shells for several years then stopped. They were very impressive. We would kill specklebellys out to 60 yds with 12 gauge 2 3/4 6 shot.

Hevi Shot makes the Hevi-Xll rounds now advertised as 12g/cc. I would like to try a box of 5's or 6's.

 

[BeeMaa]

Just purchased some Winchester Last Call made with all TSS pellets. Available in 5, 7 & 9 shot. Decided to go with 7's because of the good results I've had with the Federal Black Cloud TSS BB/7. Still need to pattern test it, but it might be after deer season before I'm able.

 

[HankBuck]

Remington made the HD shells for several years then stopped. They were very impressive. We would kill specklebellys out to 60 yds with 12 gauge 2 3/4 6 shot.

@randallhebert - Yes Randall I am also a Big Fan of the older Remington “WINGMASTER HD” with Hevi shot pellets that were also “perfectly round” and thought that they were by far - the Best shells produced since lead - they were “better then lead” because they patterned tighter and penetrated deeper, we found 7 1/2s were plenty for ducks out to 50 yrds and 6s or 4s took geese out to the same 50/60 yrd range - the big advantage over lead was the penetration. Around 2005 you could buy them for $22-$25 box of 10…Not cheap but a bargain price compared to today. Remington “discontinued them around 2011 because they were too expensive to produce and there was No Market (back then) for shells costing $5+ each etc.. I used them only for “special hunts” - Turkey, Coyote/Fox, and sometimes Geese because their performance was “better” then steel or Bismuth. But our “regular shells” for ducks anywhere or geese decoying over a field - steel 3s or 2s for ducks and BB or BBB/geese because those killed adequately and we easily shot our limits using them plus our Lab cleaned up any cripples. I also never found a need for 3” steel loads (2 3/4” was fine) but did use 3” often for geese - a few extra BB size pellets might help a little. Today, I still use Remington “Wingmaster HD” that I occasionally find selling online or my remaining “stash” but they only get loaded up for Turkey or Coyote/Fox - while my supply lasts. There are more effective shells made today and TSS certainly ranks at the Top - nothing compares to them ballistically. But I might need another 5-10 years before I’m willing to spend $10-$15 a shell and even though they are a superior shell —- they do Not prevent misses !! And the thought of $10 & $20 bills flying out of my barrel might Ruin my Day !!

 

[BeeMaa]

@HankBuck - Let me know when you want to pattern some TSS and I'll be there directly. Please make sure your choke is rated for it as well.

 

[HankBuck]

@HankBuck - Let me know when you want to pattern some TSS and I'll be there directly. Please make sure your choke is rated for it as well.

@BeeMaa - why would I ever pattern TSS? You’ve done enough testing (for Everyone) and I don’t question that TSS is by FAR “superior” — turns a shotgun into a “Bazooka”…..TSS would take down a dinosaur (pterodactyl ?)

 

[DLSJR]

@randallhebert - Yes Randall I am also a Big Fan of the older Remington “WINGMASTER HD” with Hevi shot pellets that were also “perfectly round” and thought that they were by far - the Best shells produced since lead - they were “better then lead” because they patterned tighter and penetrated deeper, we found 7 1/2s were plenty for ducks out to 50 yrds and 6s or 4s took geese out to the same 50/60 yrd range - the big advantage over lead was the penetration. Around 2005 you could buy them for $22-$25 box of 10…Not cheap but a bargain price compared to today. Remington “discontinued them around 2011 because they were too expensive to produce and there was No Market (back then) for shells costing $5+ each etc.. I used them only for “special hunts” - Turkey, Coyote/Fox, and sometimes Geese because their performance was “better” then steel or Bismuth. But our “regular shells” for ducks anywhere or geese decoying over a field - steel 3s or 2s for ducks and BB or BBB/geese because those killed adequately and we easily shot our limits using them plus our Lab cleaned up any cripples. I also never found a need for 3” steel loads (2 3/4” was fine) but did use 3” often for geese - a few extra BB size pellets might help a little. Today, I still use Remington “Wingmaster HD” that I occasionally find selling online or my remaining “stash” but they only get loaded up for Turkey or Coyote/Fox - while my supply lasts. There are more effective shells made today and TSS certainly ranks at the Top - nothing compares to them ballistically. But I might need another 5-10 years before I’m willing to spend $10-$15 a shell and even though they are a superior shell —- they do Not prevent misses !! And the thought of $10 & $20 bills flying out of my barrel might Ruin my Day !!

Some perspective…

I have a friend in Alabama who has come out to hunt ducks & geese several times with me in Idaho. He always brings a few hundred dollars worth of .410 shells with him and I lend him one of my .410’s to shoot mallards and honkers. I’ve seen him shoot about 50 mallards and 20 honkers with those shells in 9/10 shot size. It kills honkers stone dead out beyond 40 yards!

When I asked him about using such expensive shells he replied “The shells are the smallest expense for this hunt”. He was right; when considering airfare, lodging, guides, etc.; each other expense was greater than $300 worth of shells for a great waterfowl hunt.

 

[HankBuck]

Some perspective…

I have a friend in Alabama who has come out to hunt ducks & geese several times with me in Idaho. He always brings a few hundred dollars worth of .410 shells with him and I lend him one of my .410’s to shoot mallards and honkers. I’ve seen him shoot about 50 mallards and 20 honkers with those shells in 9/10 shot size. It kills honkers stone dead out beyond 40 yards!

When I asked him about using such expensive shells he replied “The shells are the smallest expense for this hunt”. He was right; when considering airfare, lodging, guides, etc.; each other expense was greater than $300 worth of shells for a great waterfowl hunt.

@DLSJR: I agree for a “Guided” hunt or a Hunt you must travel or fly too - ammo is a small part of that hunt, also when using a .410 to hunt ducks or waterfowl steel or even lead is a poor choice for shots beyond 25 yrds. When hunting waterfowl 35 days a year - out of a 60 day season - it’s a very different “cost ratio” between TSS ammo and steel or even Hevi shot, Kent Matrix, or other Better-then-steel types of shot. Any 2 3/4” 12 ga steel with 1 1/4oz number 3 or 2 shot is very effective out to 45 yrds on ducks and steel BBB on geese to 45-50 yrds. When you hunt every other day of the season and shoot 150+ ducks/geese a season - Steel works, if you can shoot. TSS works “better” but a miss is still “a Miss” and even the best Guides and Clays shooters I’ve hunted with - all miss. Now, if I was going to Alaska for a rare “King Eider” or even Maine for a Guided Eider duck hunt — I would use a better shot shell (Hevi Shot, Tungston, maybe TSS). I have No argument that it’s Not better — it’s much better. But with a 6 Duck Limit and a 2 to 3 goose limit - it’s not difficult to get that with steel & a Mod choke 12 ga. I would also use TSS for Turkey or predator hunting (calling Coyote/fox etc..)

 

[cajunchefray]

Hunting is expensive af. Ammo is one of the cheaper things you can spend money on that matters the most. If you're paying for a guided hunt or only get a few weekends a year to hunt who gives shit how much ammo costs?

I feel like saving $75 and missing and or crippling a bunch of birds with garbage steel shells isn't worth it.

Cheers 503

I hate wounding birds with steel on fast moving ducks over the marsh.
Lead has worked better in the past.
Bismuth leveled up the hunt.

I have to try TSS.

 

[HankBuck]

I hate wounding birds with steel on fast moving ducks over the marsh.
Lead has worked better in the past.
Bismuth leveled up the hunt.

I have to try TSS.

A bad shot on a Duck = a wounded duck regardless of “shot type” - a pellet hitting only wing or rump will drop the duck….and then the dog, boat, or follow up shots are needed. TSS clearly out performs and penetrates much better, so does Hevi shot and all things being equal - they perform better, but they will NOT make up for poor wing shooting. Any type of Shot can and will - wound ducks. Center your pattern on any duck inside 40 yrds = Good results. If you only waterfowl hunt a few times a year - shoot Plutonium, Platinum, Gold, or the even more expensive TSS….I’m joking - everyone knows TSS is great stuff but I can kill limits without it and with the money saved - buy a couple dozen New decoys each season….and in 10 Seasons - maybe a NEW BOAT? (Or a Mink Coat for my Wife——naw, make it TWO New Boats)

 

[DLSJR]

A bad shot on a Duck = a wounded duck regardless of “shot type” - a pellet hitting only wing or rump will drop the duck….and then the dog, boat, or follow up shots are needed. TSS clearly out performs and penetrates much better, so does Hevi shot and all things being equal - they perform better, but they will NOT make up for poor wing shooting. Any type of Shot can and will - wound ducks. Center your pattern on any duck inside 40 yrds = Good results. If you only waterfowl hunt a few times a year - shoot Plutonium, Platinum, Gold, or the even more expensive TSS….I’m joking - everyone knows TSS is great stuff but I can kill limits without it and with the money saved - buy a couple dozen New decoys each season….and in 10 Seasons - maybe a NEW BOAT? (Or a Mink Coat for my Wife——naw, make it TWO New Boats)

You’re spot on about needing to be able to shoot, no matter what you’re using or shooting at. I mostly duck hunt with 20 & 28 gauges and typically shoot some version of Hevi Shot in 4’s or 6’s. However we’ve also become big fans of Boss Shells, which are copper plated steel. Boss 5’s are excellent for Mallards. I leave for Texas in a few weeks to hunt Sandhill cranes and will probably take a 28 gauge with TSS in 8’s or 9’s. It goes clear through Honkers, so shooting Sandhills with Head/neck shots I expect it to be very effective. I can only shoot 9 Sandhills, so 20-25 shells should be plenty; that’s a bit less than $200 for shells.

 

[HankBuck]

You’re spot on about needing to be able to shoot, no matter what you’re using or shooting at. I mostly duck hunt with 20 & 28 gauges and typically shoot some version of Hevi Shot in 4’s or 6’s. However we’ve also become big fans of Boss Shells, which are copper plated steel. Boss 5’s are excellent for Mallards. I leave for Texas in a few weeks to hunt Sandhill cranes and will probably take a 28 gauge with TSS in 8’s or 9’s. It goes clear through Honkers, so shooting Sandhills with Head/neck shots I expect it to be very effective. I can only shoot 9 Sandhills, so 20-25 shells should be plenty; that’s a bit less than $200 for shells.

@DLSJR: I remember when we used lead shot for Ducks & Geese - we all used #6s and occasionally 5s or 4s —— any size worked and the dense pattern of 6s were much better for finishing off a cripple that was far out on the water with only it’s ’head up’. Once Steel was required the biggest issue was the cost - a box of steel was double that of lead ($10 - $11 a box vs $5 for lead). We used steel #3s or #2s and always 2 3/4” shells…but the #2s pattern was too open to finish off a cripple on the water at 40 yrds +.
When Hevi Shot was finally approved as a Non toxic alternative - that was an improvement and #6s and even 7 1/2s was deadly on ducks….but it was $2 a shell vs. .50 cents a shell for steel so we rarely used it. We just hunted too often (30+ days a Season) and during good years/good days- took large legal limits (6 ducks, 2 Brant, 5 mergansers, 2 geese etc..) we might take 10-12 birds each and go thru 2 Boxes of shells….and we had limited funds and were inherently “Cheap”!
Always the biggest difference on shooting a limit of ducks or geese was “shooting well” and taking birds in range (w/in 40-45 yrds). Later when we started using dogs (Labs) we recovered more ducks and saved shells - Not needing to shoot as often to finish off cripples.
Good luck on your Sand Hill Crane hunt - that should be fun and I’ve always wanted to do that…..No Sandhills on the East Coast