USA: Boulder Creek Outfitters Of Idaho

[Rolly]

I have hunted with BCO 5 times. I will no longer recommend them. This last trip was for cow elk in the fall of 2022. My buddy and I each got our cow elk by the morning of the second day and we were getting ready to leave to get our meat to the coolers. We had each tipped the guide $300 for a total of $600 and tipped the two cooks a combined $60 for the two days. The owner of BCO (Tim) said he wanted to talk to us and proceeded to call the two of us every 4 letter name he could think of for, what he called shitty tips for the cooks. He went on and on, yelling at us and cursing. He wouldn’t let us get a word in. He threw our cook tips on the table at us and told us he had tipped the cooks with his own personal money since we were so GD tight. We couldn’t even respond by the time he was finished as he stormed out. All this for two evening meals two lunches we fixed ourselves and two breakfasts. We packed up and left. Never gonna return. My buddy was 83 and I was 75 at the time this happened last Fall. We have never had someone talk to us like this in all our years. We will never recommend Boulder Creek Outfitters again !

 

[ftrovato]

They call it tipping for a reason. If the Outfitter paid HIS staff a fair wage for their work they would be more likely to come back and cook for HIM next year. Sounds like he was the one not taking care of his business.....

 

[Ridge Runner]

Rolly,
So if I get this right your cook prepared 4 meals, 2 breakfast and 2 dinner meals?; while you and your hunting buddy prepared your own lunches.


Basing your combined $60.00 tip, of $15.00/meal, at 10% tip/meal,....those must have been some expensive meals: champagne breakfasts with caviar, and at least 5 course steak dinners.

At $75.00/ person/ meal ...Too fancy of an outfitter for me.

I presume you and your hunting buddy had planned for a week long hunt....My guess is the outfitter lost a bit more money on paying the cook's guaranteed wages than on the guide's wages because you and your hunting buddy were leaving early. If he took the same attitude toward his guide employee as he did with you because the guide got each of you an elk in the first 2 days, the outfitter most likely lost a guide. Quite possibly any other future guide he wants to hire when word gets out.

 

[ftrovato]

Rolly,
So if I get this right your cook prepared 4 meals, 2 breakfast and 2 dinner meals?; while you and your hunting buddy prepared your own lunches.


Basing your combined $60.00 tip, of $15.00/meal, at 10% tip/meal,....those must have been some expensive meals: champagne breakfasts with caviar, and at least 5 course steak dinners.

At $75.00/ person/ meal ...Too fancy of an outfitter for me.

I presume you and your hunting buddy had planned for a week long hunt....My guess is the outfitter lost a bit more money on paying the cook's guaranteed wages than on the guide's wages because you and your hunting buddy were leaving early. If he took the same attitude toward his guide employee as he did with you because the guide got each of you an elk in the first 2 days, the outfitter most likely lost a guide. Quite possibly any other future guide he wants to hire when word gets out.

Why would Outfitter loose a guide? As an example, if a hunter PAID for a 5 day hunt and left early, everyone made 5 days wage and didn't have to work 5 days if the departing hunter was the only hunter in camp. Assuming tip should be based on 5 days hunt to Guide in particular..... Am I missing something here?

 

[Rolly]

We think that BCO expected us to tip the cooks an exceptional amount so that he wouldn’t have to pay them an acceptable rate.. We don’t know. We were called every 4 letter F word you can imagine. We’re done with BCO.

 

[Rolly]

Our guide had never hunted elk before. The only rope he had was a shoe lace. No saw, nothing except a 4 wheeler. After I shot my elk he wanted to leave us to the cleaning so he could “patrol” . We said, “No way” you stay here and do your job. He did. We can’t imagwhat the issue was with the cooks except we think the owners had told them that in lieu of salary they would get these hugely generous tips. When we left $60 the cooks went to the owner and he was “stuck” for his big mouth and took it out of us.

 

[ftrovato]

Our guide had never hunted elk before. The only rope he had was a shoe lace. No saw, nothing except a 4 wheeler. After I shot my elk he wanted to leave us to the cleaning so he could “patrol” . We said, “No way” you stay here and do your job. He did. We can’t imagwhat the issue was with the cooks except we think the owners had told them that in lieu of salary they would get these hugely generous tips. When we left $60 the cooks went to the owner and he was “stuck” for his big mouth and took it out of us.

Makes perfect sense. Anyone can hang a shingle out. Doesn't mean they are worth their salt!

 

[IdaRam]

I have hunted with BCO 5 times. I will no longer recommend them. This last trip was for cow elk in the fall of 2022. My buddy and I each got our cow elk by the morning of the second day and we were getting ready to leave to get our meat to the coolers. We had each tipped the guide $300 for a total of $600 and tipped the two cooks a combined $60 for the two days. The owner of BCO (Tim) said he wanted to talk to us and proceeded to call the two of us every 4 letter name he could think of for, what he called shitty tips for the cooks. He went on and on, yelling at us and cursing. He wouldn’t let us get a word in. He threw our cook tips on the table at us and told us he had tipped the cooks with his own personal money since we were so GD tight. We couldn’t even respond by the time he was finished as he stormed out. All this for two evening meals two lunches we fixed ourselves and two breakfasts. We packed up and left. Never gonna return. My buddy was 83 and I was 75 at the time this happened last Fall. We have never had someone talk to us like this in all our years. We will never recommend Boulder Creek Outfitters again !

Wow! Sorry to hear this. That behavior is just uncalled for. Especially on your 5th trip with this outfit. Sheesh!
Idaho has some really excellent outfitters, and a few turds. Sounds like you found a turd.
Anyone looking for a great outfitter and a wonderful wilderness experience in Idaho would be well served to seek out Steve Zettel / Idaho Wilderness Company or Travis Bullock / Mile High Outfitters.

 

[Doug3006]

My experience with NA outfitters and guides has made me gunshy about doing guided hunts here. ANYONE can call themselves a guide or outfitter and sell you a hunt. No certifications needed. (Alaska and Maine are exceptions.) Outfits with glowing client recommendations one year seemingly crash and burn the following. I know we hear about shady outfits in Africa, but the industry there does seem to do a better job policing their ranks.

 

[IdaRam]

My experience with NA outfitters and guides has made me gunshy about doing guided hunts here. ANYONE can call themselves a guide or outfitter and sell you a hunt. No certifications needed. (Alaska and Maine are exceptions.) Outfits with glowing client recommendations one year seemingly crash and burn the following. I know we hear about shady outfits in Africa, but the industry there does seem to do a better job policing their ranks.

I wholeheartedly agree with you Doug, I think Africa Outfitters on the whole operate at a higher standard than NA Outfitters, generally speaking. Someone who has hunted Africa a bit and then goes on a guided NA trip might be disappointed if their expectations are based only on those trips to Africa.

Not to pick nits, but Montana, Idaho, Colorado and Wyoming have licensing boards. To operate legally an outfitter must be licensed and bonded.
USFS also has requirements for Outfitters and Guides.

IOGA
An outfitter is someone who offers guided trips for compensation. To operate legally in Idaho, outfitters must be licensed with the state Outfitters and Guides Licensing Board. A guide is an outfitter's employee. Guides must be certified in first aid. They must train with a licensed outfitter, and they must be licensed with the state board.

Idaho was one of the first states in the West to license and bond outfitters and guides. The state established requirements in 1954, a decade before the Forest Service began similar regulation. Not until the 1980s did Montana, Wyoming and Colorado follow Idaho's example.

 

[Aaron.F]

Tipping has gotten out of control.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Why would Outfitter loose a guide? As an example, if a hunter PAID for a 5 day hunt and left early, everyone made 5 days wage and didn't have to work 5 days if the departing hunter was the only hunter in camp. Assuming tip should be based on 5 days hunt to Guide in particular..... Am I missing something here?

Image your the guide. The outfitter promised each $100.00/day plus good tips from these 2 repeat customers for 5 days for you and the cook(s).
As the guide you get $100.00/day regardless of how many days you guide these clients. You did your part and got each hunter an elk in the first 2 days. Now these hunters are leaving before their 5 days is up.

As the guide you walk away with $800.00 for 2 days work. And maybe hired as the guide for the next group in 5 -6 days.

The outfitter is upset at you for not stringing to 2 hunters along for the full 5 days. Then cusses you like he did the clients:

Would you continue to offer your guide services to this outfitter?
Would or Wouldn't you recommend this outfitter to other guides looking for work as a good outfitter to work for? I wouldn't.
The cook(s) were gaur anteed $100.00/day for 5 days. To each their own opinion, but I think $60.00 tip for providing only 4 meals, and I have to pack my own lunches, is a fair tip.
Possibly: The cook(s) got mad because instead of 5 days employment for $500.00 + a gracious tip. The cook(s) now only made $200.00 + $60.00 tip for the 2 days, instead of the $500.00 + gracious tip (example: $30.00/day x 5 = $150.00) = $650.00.
The cook(s) is (are) wanting his/their $500.00 for the 5 days the outfitter hired them for. This pisses the outfitter off because he has to pay out of pocket the minimum $500.00 (or $1000.00 for 2 cooks for 5 days) for 2 of the 5 days these clients were there. And probably an extra $50.00 - $100.00 to the cook(s) as a bonus(es) so they will continue to work for him.
Thereby the outfitter is still having to pay the cook(s) even though he/they are not working.
Which as you stated earlier: "They call it tipping for a reason. If the Outfitter paid HIS staff a fair wage for their work they would be more likely to come back and cook for HIM next year. Sounds like he was the one not taking care of his business....".

 

[375Fox]

My experience with NA outfitters and guides has made me gunshy about doing guided hunts here. ANYONE can call themselves a guide or outfitter and sell you a hunt. No certifications needed. (Alaska and Maine are exceptions.) Outfits with glowing client recommendations one year seemingly crash and burn the following. I know we hear about shady outfits in Africa, but the industry there does seem to do a better job policing their ranks.

I think African hunting is generally much more suitable for a career. It’s leads to professional PHs, trackers, camp staff when you can hunt 8 or 9 months a year on a quota. The North American model I think is difficult to retain guides for long term. If a guide can only hunt 2-4 months a year has to fill in the rest of year with odd jobs only a few will stay with it. The outfitter will have to find new guides frequently. I haven’t had any problems myself on North American hunts, but my sheep guide was fired in a later season after refusing to shake client’s hand over tip he felt wasn’t appropriate (and other attitude problems). He got into drugs and killed himself shortly after. You typically don’t hear these problems in Africa.

 

[375Fox]

I have hunted with BCO 5 times. I will no longer recommend them. This last trip was for cow elk in the fall of 2022. My buddy and I each got our cow elk by the morning of the second day and we were getting ready to leave to get our meat to the coolers. We had each tipped the guide $300 for a total of $600 and tipped the two cooks a combined $60 for the two days. The owner of BCO (Tim) said he wanted to talk to us and proceeded to call the two of us every 4 letter name he could think of for, what he called shitty tips for the cooks. He went on and on, yelling at us and cursing. He wouldn’t let us get a word in. He threw our cook tips on the table at us and told us he had tipped the cooks with his own personal money since we were so GD tight. We couldn’t even respond by the time he was finished as he stormed out. All this for two evening meals two lunches we fixed ourselves and two breakfasts. We packed up and left. Never gonna return. My buddy was 83 and I was 75 at the time this happened last Fall. We have never had someone talk to us like this in all our years. We will never recommend Boulder Creek Outfitters again !

Sorry you went through this. The tips sound fair to me for a two day cow elk hunt. There is a professional way to handle it and an unprofessional way. That’s not a way to run a business.

 

[WAB]

Image your the guide. The outfitter promised each $100.00/day plus good tips from these 2 repeat customers for 5 days for you and the cook(s).
As the guide you get $100.00/day regardless of how many days you guide these clients. You did your part and got each hunter an elk in the first 2 days. Now these hunters are leaving before their 5 days is up.

As the guide you walk away with $800.00 for 2 days work. And maybe hired as the guide for the next group in 5 -6 days.

The outfitter is upset at you for not stringing to 2 hunters along for the full 5 days. Then cusses you like he did the clients:

Would you continue to offer your guide services to this outfitter?
Would or Wouldn't you recommend this outfitter to other guides looking for work as a good outfitter to work for? I wouldn't.
The cook(s) were gaur anteed $100.00/day for 5 days. To each their own opinion, but I think $60.00 tip for providing only 4 meals, and I have to pack my own lunches, is a fair tip.
Possibly: The cook(s) got mad because instead of 5 days employment for $500.00 + a gracious tip. The cook(s) now only made $200.00 + $60.00 tip for the 2 days, instead of the $500.00 + gracious tip (example: $30.00/day x 5 = $150.00) = $650.00.
The cook(s) is (are) wanting his/their $500.00 for the 5 days the outfitter hired them for. This pisses the outfitter off because he has to pay out of pocket the minimum $500.00 (or $1000.00 for 2 cooks for 5 days) for 2 of the 5 days these clients were there. And probably an extra $50.00 - $100.00 to the cook(s) as a bonus(es) so they will continue to work for him.
Thereby the outfitter is still having to pay the cook(s) even though he/they are not working.
Which as you stated earlier: "They call it tipping for a reason. If the Outfitter paid HIS staff a fair wage for their work they would be more likely to come back and cook for HIM next year. Sounds like he was the one not taking care of his business....".

Unless I’m mistaken, the outfitter was paid for the hunt in full. He has nothing to complain about if he has to pay his workers in full for the hunt. His profit margin is still intact and probably improved with the reduction in some variable costs. It sounds like he’s a complete idiot.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Unless I’m mistaken, the outfitter was paid for the hunt in full. He has nothing to complain about if he has to pay his workers in full for the hunt. His profit margin is still intact and probably improved with the reduction in some variable costs. It sounds like he’s a complete idiot.

Totally agree about him being a complete idiot.

 

[Troubleshooter]

Just to put this in perspective, how much (in terms of percentage) did you tip the cook(s) on your previous four hunts? Apparently your tips during previous years were acceptable to the outfitter, but this time they were not. That makes no sense.

Our guide had never hunted elk before. The only rope he had was a shoe lace. No saw, nothing except a 4 wheeler. After I shot my elk he wanted to leave us to the cleaning so he could “patrol” .

Sounds like he was unfit to be a guide. I've never seen a guide who doesn't participate in (or just do) field dressing the animal; but leaving an octogenarian and a septuagenarian alone to do so while going off "on patrol" is just unconscionable. Unless the "guide" is in his 90s.

 

[Doug3006]

I wholeheartedly agree with you Doug, I think Africa Outfitters on the whole operate at a higher standard than NA Outfitters, generally speaking. Someone who has hunted Africa a bit and then goes on a guided NA trip might be disappointed if their expectations are based only on those trips to Africa.

Not to pick nits, but Montana, Idaho, Colorado and Wyoming have licensing boards. To operate legally an outfitter must be licensed and bonded.
USFS also has requirements for Outfitters and Guides.

IOGA
An outfitter is someone who offers guided trips for compensation. To operate legally in Idaho, outfitters must be licensed with the state Outfitters and Guides Licensing Board. A guide is an outfitter's employee. Guides must be certified in first aid. They must train with a licensed outfitter, and they must be licensed with the state board.

Idaho was one of the first states in the West to license and bond outfitters and guides. The state established requirements in 1954, a decade before the Forest Service began similar regulation. Not until the 1980s did Montana, Wyoming and Colorado follow Idaho's example.

Thanks IdaRam. I suspect the licensing requirements in tHesse states falls well short of the training an African PH must undergo.

 

[WillMFerguson]

LOL I see you met Timmy. Sorry to say, but that's not abnormal behavior for him. My best friend guided one season (because that was enough of that) for him about 15 or so years ago. Also, IOGA is a damn joke. By joke, I mean crooked as Highway 12. You want to see what those folks are made of, just do some checking into the incident involving Tim Craig, IOGA, FAG (Idaho Fish & Game), USFWS, and Warm Springs Outfitters (Gordon Frost). I'll give you the ending to that story: Gordon went to prison and IOGA awarded Gordon's area to Tim. All that being said, Tim's son, Matt, is a pretty good guy; I figured that Tim would have handed over operations to Matt by now.

 

[R.M.C.]

Sorry you had a shitty experience, I think the tip was more than appropriate for a couple meals, I agree with some of the statements above about NA guides being not as professional as the African PHs