Using Thermal Imaging for Hunting

[BeeMaa]

"Change is the only constant in life" Heraclitus (Greek philosopher)

Hunting is no exception to this. There will be a constant evolution in the equipment used and there is very little one can do to stop or even slow down this change. Ethics are the question here, not necessarily the technology but how it's used.

For instance...using a drone. I would consider using a drone to locate game that has been shot (or at least shot at and possibly wounded) ethical. However using a drone to locate game to then shoot at I consider unethical. This is my opinion on drones, you are entitled to yours.

So now turn it up a bit...using dogs. Using dogs to find downed or wounded animals is quite common in Africa and around the world. However dogs are also used to find game like birds, foxes, hogs, mountain lion, black bear...etc. Where do the ethics fall on this. Is it OK to use a dog to locate game to be harvested but not a drone? Is it simply because a drone is electronic and the dog is not? What about the modern training techniques for getting dogs into hunting shape? Is that not technology? Or is it just ethical because that's the way it's been done for years?

So at the core of it, even I'm conflicted on some level. It's OK to use dogs for both, but not drones? But it does raise the larger question of ethics when using any new technology. Where each individual falls will vary, across a broad spectrum I'm sure.

This post is by no means a troll, those of you who know me already know this. I'm respectfully opening up the discussion of ethics. Specifically to thermals as it applies to this thread.

 

[bowjijohn]

"Change is the only constant in life" Heraclitus (Greek philosopher)

Hunting is no exception to this. There will be a constant evolution in the equipment used and there is very little one can do to stop or even slow down this change. Ethics are the question here, not necessarily the technology but how it's used.

For instance...using a drone. I would consider using a drone to locate game that has been shot (or at least shot at and possibly wounded) ethical. However using a drone to locate game to then shoot at I consider unethical. This is my opinion on drones, you are entitled to yours.

So now turn it up a bit...using dogs. Using dogs to find downed or wounded animals is quite common in Africa and around the world. However dogs are also used to find game like birds, foxes, hogs, mountain lion, black bear...etc. Where do the ethics fall on this. Is it OK to use a dog to locate game to be harvested but not a drone? Is it simply because a drone is electronic and the dog is not? What about the modern training techniques for getting dogs into hunting shape? Is that not technology? Or is it just ethical because that's the way it's been done for years?

So at the core of it, even I'm conflicted on some level. It's OK to use dogs for both, but not drones? But it does raise the larger question of ethics when using any new technology. Where each individual falls will vary, across a broad spectrum I'm sure.

This post is by no means a troll, those of you who know me already know this. I'm respectfully opening up the discussion of ethics. Specifically to thermals as it applies to this thread.

I concur whole heartedly

I would add drones for anti-poaching - they are a great force multiplier

I feel less conflicted as - other than for game/wildlife management and for the pot - I don't hunt

I understand fully the importance of hunting to conservation in Africa and the vital input of visiting hunters, but I don't consider myself a hunter

I was

Not so much now

However I can still be swept up in the excitement and drama - perhaps I'm deluding myself

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

Most of the high end thermals are ITAR regulated. I looked into taking one last year to SA. Not worth the hassle of all the paperwork to legally take it out of the USA.
I use thermals all the time for hog control here. The newest and best handheld I have used was last night. Pulsar Merger thermal rangefinder Binos. Awesome is all I can say. Ranged pigs out to 780 yards last night on open field. Sure helped knowing distance before we started shooting.

 

[Goose Cracker]

I purchased a thermal handheld (Pulsar Axion) a couple years ago. They are used extensively here in the UK for spotting game during daylight. They are a game changer when stalking. Find a heat source, then swap to the binos for proper identification. You can definitely tell the difference between a muntjac, roe, or fallow with the thermal. Not so easy to tell a good buck from a younger or smaller one.

They don't work so well when it's warm out - wasn't much help in TX finding aoudad in the afternoon. Too many rocks, etc getting warmed by the sun.

I like to use it in the US on the way into and out of the deer stand - to check what it is I might be spooking.

 

[cem rona ergin]

I use thermal for wild boar hunting all the time .. I also use it for moose hunting occasionally.. since both animals are hunted for meat I have no issues using thermal when hunting them ..
I have more moral issues when buying my meat from the butcher or the supermarket

 

[gizmo]

For hunting pigs, thermal scopes are awesome - day and night

your monocular is excellent for finding games in brush , particularly shot game that didn’t go down. In this instance I think they support good ethics.

I predict in 10 years most high end scopes will have built-in ballistics, some form of thermal/night vision

Fortunately that’s already a thing. I am an ATN dealer and for 700$ plus tax and shipping you can get a day/night ATN X sight 4k that is day and night compatible. It comes with a fleer and has an internal ballistics calculator, one shot zero, recording capabilities both manual and recoil operated, it also will communicate with the day/night vision bino’s and will automatically set the zero on the rifle using the range finder in the binos. Two buttons and it will return to your 100 yard zero. They also have all the capabilities with recording that the scope has and more. The binos are 899$ (I think, either that or 799$) and I have all of them in stock. I also have several thermal units as well. All ATN products talk to each other and have the same ballistics and recording capabilities.
They’ve got thermal binos and monos. If I don’t have it in stock I can order it and ship it direct to you.
I personally use all of this equipment and it works!

 

[BeeMaa]

I use thermal for wild boar hunting all the time .. I also use it for moose hunting occasionally.. since both animals are hunted for meat I have no issues using thermal when hunting them ..
I have more moral issues when buying my meat from the butcher or the supermarket

Excellent point.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

i have a pulsar handheld and a scope mounted on a rifle
we use this setup mainly for jackals and sometimes other night critters

it is a game changer for sure, but also reduced the wounding rate significantly, basically to zero

 

[VertigoBE]

Fortunately that’s already a thing. I am an ATN dealer and for 700$ plus tax and shipping you can get a day/night ATN X sight 4k that is day and night compatible. It comes with a fleer and has an internal ballistics calculator, one shot zero, recording capabilities both manual and recoil operated, it also will communicate with the day/night vision bino’s and will automatically set the zero on the rifle using the range finder in the binos. Two buttons and it will return to your 100 yard zero. They also have all the capabilities with recording that the scope has and more. The binos are 899$ (I think, either that or 799$) and I have all of them in stock. I also have several thermal units as well. All ATN products talk to each other and have the same ballistics and recording capabilities.
They’ve got thermal binos and monos. If I don’t have it in stock I can order it and ship it direct to you.
I personally use all of this equipment and it works!
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A question I have on these: when using them, can you somehow shield the light from the screen when “looking through” the scope, so your face is not lit up like a Christmas tree?

I used once or twice a handheld night vision, with IR, it was quite complicated to keep any light leakage to a minimum or zero when using it, so the game does not get spooked by face.

(That last phrase is a bit funny I agree )

Our wild boar is very very alert and easily spooked.

 

[bowjijohn]

A question I have on these: when using them, can you somehow shield the light from the screen when “looking through” the scope, so your face is not lit up like a Christmas tree?

I used once or twice a handheld night vision, with IR, it was quite complicated to keep any light leakage to a minimum or zero when using it, so the game does not get spooked by face.

(That last phrase is a bit funny I agree )

Our wild boar is very very alert and easily spooked.

That is a great question

you can turn down the brightness which, in turn, reduces the backwash lighting up your face

Additionally most (?) devices come with an eye cup - that also helps reduce escaped light

there is, however, always a bit of unwanted light

 

[WAB]

The baffled eye cup should seal tightly to your face.

 

[mdwest]

I checked out several different thermal monoculars at Scheels yesterday... I was pleasantly surprized that even the lowest cost options would most likely meet every requirement I have..

Im not really interested in mounting one as a scope.. and not really worried about being able to spot things at 1000 meters, etc.. Im also not really worried about being able to clearly see if something is a "big" buck vs something avg, etc..

All I am looking for is something that can accomplish 2 things.. I'd like to be able to use it to help spot/find downed game that made it into the bush (for example, I got a very nice doe this past season.. she only went about 40-50 yards from where she was shot... but that put her 30-40 yards into the woodline.. it took me almost 30 minutes to find her.. she had balled up under a thicket and was completely invisible to the naked eye until I got about 10 yards from her.. the blood trail ultimately led to her.. but it was spotty and took some time to follow.. with a thermal Im guessing once I found the location she entered the woodline I could have found her in 30 seconds.. just a quick scan of the area would have found a heat source being generated by a brown deer laying under a brown bush half covered in brown leaves..

the other thing I'd like to be able to do with it is spot hogs at night when out on foot approaching fields / feed locations.. I don't need a whole lot of range (100-200 yards would be plenty).. I'd like to be able to see the field clearly and maybe see a few meters into the wood line to check if a sounder is hanging around before I move on to the next location... Im not too worried about being able to identify a boar vs sow, big vs small, etc.. I just want to know if they are there before I start trying to stalk in for a shot, set up sticks, mount the rifle that has the NV optic on it, etc..

I think the little $375 until Scheels had on hand would do that just fine.. I was able to look a full 100M across the store and make out human forms very clearly.... I might not have been able to tell who was who.. or see details... but they were clearly humans... at 150-200 the device still would have detected a heat signature.. but I'd guess that signature would be more of a blob than an actual discernable form of something recognizable.. but, again, for my intended purposes, this would be just fine..

Im definitely giving more consideration to picking something up in the near future.. I think a little pocket thermal monocular would be a pretty handy piece of kit for whats honestly a negligible investment compared to a lot of the other stuff I use to better facilitate hunting (UTV, rifle, etc).. hell.. Ive got a couple of hunting jackets that cost more than the AGM TM160 thermal..

 

[Goose Cracker]

One thing to keep in mind - thermals don't see through trees or brush or even through your windshield. So parts of the animal need to be clear of the obstacles for the thermal to pick it up. I'm sure folks already knew this but just in case....

 

[gizmo]

A question I have on these: when using them, can you somehow shield the light from the screen when “looking through” the scope, so your face is not lit up like a Christmas tree?

I used once or twice a handheld night vision, with IR, it was quite complicated to keep any light leakage to a minimum or zero when using it, so the game does not get spooked by face.

(That last phrase is a bit funny I agree )

Our wild boar is very very alert and easily spooked.

He is correct

That is a great question

you can turn down the brightness which, in turn, reduces the backwash lighting up your face

Additionally most (?) devices come with an eye cup - that also helps reduce escaped light

there is, however, always a bit of unwanted light

 

[VertigoBE]

He is correct

@gizmo and @bowjijohn so the ATN X-sight does come with one of those baffled eye cups? As I didn't see them on.

How does this work together with recoil? In practice I mean. You move your head back just before the shot? You just do not use it on a higher recoiling rifle?

with the handheld device I used a few times, I would even only switch it on, once the eyecup was in full contact with my eye socket. eye closed, so that the startup flash would not blind me, and only when it was ready would I open up my eye slowly. Then, before I took it back off my face, I would put it back in sleep mode.

 

[bowjijohn]

@gizmo and @bowjijohn so the ATN X-sight does come with one of those baffled eye cups? As I didn't see them on.

How does this work together with recoil? In practice I mean. You move your head back just before the shot? You just do not use it on a higher recoiling rifle?

with the handheld device I used a few times, I would even only switch it on, once the eyecup was in full contact with my eye socket. eye closed, so that the startup flash would not blind me, and only when it was ready would I open up my eye slowly. Then, before I took it back off my face, I would put it back in sleep mode.

I'm not familiar with the ATN - X so can't comment

The thermal screen is bright and an eye cup will restrict escape light

Soon as you bring the rifle off the shoulder there is, of course, a bit of light escaping.

Not much you can do about that save perhaps covering the eye piece with the flat of the hand

The Thermion will go into standby mode if you press the off button - I tend to turn it off when walking as it will quickly restart - I do this purely to save the batteries

As for recoil ...

I'd not care to use one with anything that recoils greater than my 6.5 as the eye is well and truly in the danger zone

j

PS - a thermal does affect you're night vision so best to use only one eye

 

[mdwest]

@gizmo and @bowjijohn so the ATN X-sight does come with one of those baffled eye cups? As I didn't see them on.

How does this work together with recoil? In practice I mean. You move your head back just before the shot? You just do not use it on a higher recoiling rifle?

with the handheld device I used a few times, I would even only switch it on, once the eyecup was in full contact with my eye socket. eye closed, so that the startup flash would not blind me, and only when it was ready would I open up my eye slowly. Then, before I took it back off my face, I would put it back in sleep mode.

Im not sure if the X-Sight comes with one.. the Sightmark Wraith Day/NV scope does come with one (I use the Sightmark).. but, I removed it from my optic.. I found it actually got in the way and limited my ability to view the scope.. and since mine is mounted on a .458 SOCOM, I had no interest in putting my eye anywhere near the rubber eye cup anyway

For me, the very limited amount of light created vs the distance I am shooting hogs at night (or day) has been no real big deal.. if they see that tiny amount of light at 50-150 meters (normally shooting distances I am working with on pigs).. they get to live another day and challenge me again at another time (hasn't happened yet.. )....

 

[C.W. Richter]

I got one of the mid tier ATN units to try and help curb a hog problem on a friend's farm. I've been disappointed with the range and clarity of it from more than 100 yards out, but inside 100 and when using a pop-up blind it's been a great asset.

I also put it on QD rings to be able to use it as a handheld monocular, or put daytime regular scope on when I want to.

There's a few states with laws against using thermals or night vision to in any way aid in hunting activities, so know the rules before putting to use.

Ironically, only legal for hunting predators/furbearers (not bear) in PA where EurOptic is located. Ok for looking/scouting at night, off-season.

 

[gizmo]

@gizmo and @bowjijohn so the ATN X-sight does come with one of those baffled eye cups? As I didn't see them on.

How does this work together with recoil? In practice I mean. You move your head back just before the shot? You just do not use it on a higher recoiling rifle?

with the handheld device I used a few times, I would even only switch it on, once the eyecup was in full contact with my eye socket. eye closed, so that the startup flash would not blind me, and only when it was ready would I open up my eye slowly. Then, before I took it back off my face, I would put it back in sleep mode.

You never move your head, that will make you pull the shot. If the brightness is adjusted properly and you are up against the eyecup on a thermal its not that dramatic. I've used them on 375's with no problem. There is enough eye relief its not going to whack you unless your basic cheek weld is off anyway. The x-site doesnt have a cup but its not bright enough for it to matter once you adjust it. It sounds silly but I have to tell people to read the manual all the time. 99% of these type of questions are answered in the nomenclature, of course it is perfectly reasonable that you are asking since you dont own one so please don't misunderstand my statement.
Our pigs are as spooky or more than anywhere they live. They get shot at all the time by clients and we have never had one spook, even on the ground, from a back lit face. I'm not saying it isn't possible but highly unlikely. There is enough adjustment in the set up that it works out just fine. If you have it on full brightness in the dark its going to really hurt your eye and screw your night vision.

 

[BeeMaa]

Package arrived yesterday afternoon...

I unboxed everything and fully charged the battery. By the time my wife came home I was in the middle of going through the menu and setting stuff up. We played around with it for about 10 minutes last night and were impressed with the level of clarity and the capabilities of the unit. We shutdown the unit and called it a night.

This morning there was a fresh coat of snow on the ground and while having coffee, my wife wanted to see how everything looked through the thermal. She fired it up and after just a few seconds it shut itself off. Huh...that's strange. It did the same thing to both of us several times. Well damn.

I placed a call to Euro Optic and they are issuing a RMA along with a full refund to have the unit checked out. Not sure what is going on with it, but I'm happy to only be inconvenienced by having to ship it back.

To be continued...