When should a Professional Hunter provide follow up shots?

[Bulldog1]

I have never hunted Africa but have spent years hunting all over North America but after watching hours and hours of all different types of African hunts I have noticed some PHs have follow up shots before the muzzle blast has subsided from the client and others don't even have their rifle off their shoulder. For my way of thinking you already have a PH, trackers, skinners, packers, ect. and to have a PH follow up before you even know if your shot(s) were successful seems to make you even more of just a shooter than an actual hunter than you already are.

On DG I suppose the argument could be made it's a safety issue, but isn't that why there paid to be PHs ?To put you in a position their involvement should only come if tracking a wounded animal is necessary?

I am curious to the thoughts of those here with so much experience.

 

[JimP]

This is a conversation that you need to have with your PH.

I've seen on a number of TV shows where the PH shoots a fraction of a second after their client shoots, but I have no idea if there has been a discussion or not and to when and if.

I know that on my last hunt I had wounded a kudu and they trackers were pushing him through some very thick brush. I took a shot which hit him but then I lost him as he was going through the brush. I told my PH that I had lost him and to take a shot if he had one. The kudu came out of the brush and laid down, the trackers held back and the PH didn't shoot. But I would of not had a problem if he would of taken the shot.

 

[Red Leg]

In four different African countries, I have never hunted plains game where my PH was carrying anything other than a handgun and the shooting sticks - usually just the latter. Any and all shooting was up to me. When hunting DG, a PH will always be armed. Normally, usually, most of the time a PH will only fire at an inbound animal or to prevent a non-fatally wounded animal from escaping. During five dangerous game hunts in three countries, I have never had a PH fire his rifle. Of course, I haven't yet hunted with Mark Sullivan.

 

[mark-hunter]

European hunting ethics says:
First ball, last shotgun shot (in my free translation)
This means, the trophy belongs to the hunter who first hit or wounded big game animal,
Last shotgun shot means, the bird belongs to the hunter, who had the bird fell down, by last shotgun shot, in the group hunt.

I can apply this to buffalo. First shot is mine, buffalo is mine. If somebody helps a bit, fine. No issue for me.

Next thing is: would you rather anchor the buffalo down with a little bit help from the side, or spend days in tracking, and maybe never finding it? And little help from the side, is always there. tracking, skinning, guiding, laundry, meals, etc.... Safari hunt is team work.

 

[grand veneur]

I have never hunted Africa but have spent years hunting all over North America but after watching hours and hours of all different types of African hunts I have noticed some PHs have follow up shots before the muzzle blast has subsided from the client and others don't even have their rifle off their shoulder. For my way of thinking you already have a PH, trackers, skinners, packers, ect. and to have a PH follow up before you even know if your shot(s) were successful seems to make you even more of just a shooter than an actual hunter than you already are.

On DG I suppose the argument could be made it's a safety issue, but isn't that why there paid to be PHs ?To put you in a position their involvement should only come if tracking a wounded animal is necessary?

I am curious to the thoughts of those here with so much experience.

That is a procedure that you have to discuss with your PH before, and I think that this was agreed beforehand in the cases mentioned. There will but certainly be situations, especially by big and dangerous game hunting, that a PH judges, based on his experience, that he has to shoot, whether the client likes or not. The problem can come from the game but also from some clients, but I have never experienced a PH shooting at the game behind a client without prior agreement and without giving reasons.

 

[Doug3006]

I’m with @Red Leg. The PH shouldn‘t back up on plains game, unless you give them permission. “Hey, we’re really close to the park boundary and if the animal crosses the line he’s lost, and you will still be charged. Want me to back you up?” On DG the PH gets to make the call since his license and life are on the line. If you or someone else gets hurt because he hesitated to shoot, it may not work out well for him.

This very scenario played out for a PH I shared a camp with. His client swore him to not shooting as a backup. The client muffed the first shot. They followed up and the bull damn near killed the PH. I’d much prefer a ticked off client to a month in a SA hospital.

 

[375Fox]

It’s a conversation you should have with your PH at the start of your hunt. It should also be part of the consideration in who you choose to be your outfitter and PH. Not all outfitters and PHs are not equal. I don’t want there to be a wounded animal. I tell my PH on every hunt if they aren’t certain on my shot to back me up. If there is a situation where follow up could be more dangerous than normal, I want them to back me up as well. It does not take away from my trophy or hunting experience in any way to me. We are hunting as a team. The “it’s my trophy, only I shoot, if I wound it it’s on me” attitude doesn’t make sense to me. That said ive yet to have my PH back me up on 3 buffalo. The two animals I’ve had PH back me up on was a giraffe so we could ensure it dropped close to the road and a wounded hartebeest that was on the property line (I should note I was 13 years old on this hunt and had demonstrated some poor shooting during hunt). Good PHs do not want to shoot unless it’s a safety issue. They want it to be the client’s hunt. Trigger happy PHs would point to inexperience or an ego problem to me and I’d look elsewhere. Certain countries I would look into the experience of the PH much more than others.

 

[grand veneur]

...

I can apply this to buffalo. First shot is mine, buffalo is mine. If somebody helps a bit, fine. No issue for me.

Next thing is: would you rather anchor the buffalo down with a little bit help from the side, or spend days in tracking, and maybe never finding it? And little help from the side, is always there. tracking, skinning, guiding, laundry, meals, etc.... Safari hunt is team work.

A little help can certainly make things easier, but not everyone wants that.

The other point is something different and a topic in itself. In most of the videos I often see buffalo running away after the first shot. At this point, no one knows how seriously the buffalo was hit, so the PH or another shooter would always have to be ready and to shoot immediately if the buffalo does not go down on the place. I don't think the majority want something like that, but you can imagine that things did not always go so easy as shown at the end of the videos.

 

[375Fox]

This very scenario played out for a PH I shared a camp with. His client swore him to not shooting as a backup. The client muffed the first shot. They followed up and the bull damn near killed the PH. I’d much prefer a ticked off client to a month in a SA hospital.

One PH I hunted with told me a story about a client like this. The client did not want to obey any PH instructions. The client felt he was too high status to be argued with. My PH said he called his boss and told him the client was a serious safety risk. A charter was sent to take him back to town and he was told he was no longer welcome as a client.

 

[JimP]

This is a conversation that you need to have with your PH.

I've seen on a number of TV shows where the PH shoots a fraction of a second after their client shoots, but I have no idea if there has been a discussion or not and to when and if.

I know that on my last hunt I had wounded a kudu and they trackers were pushing him through some very thick brush. I took a shot which hit him but then I lost him as he was going through the brush. I told my PH that I had lost him and to take a shot if he had one. The kudu came out of the brush and laid down, the trackers held back and the PH didn't shoot. But I would of not had a problem if he would of taken the shot.

One thing to clarify why my PH had a rifle on a plains game animal was that we had been tracking this kudu for close to a mile and we used the PH's vehicle to try and get ahead of it. When we left the vehicle my PH took his rifle.

In the end the kudu would of died without my last shot once he laid down. My first shot had taken out parts of both lungs, but not enough to slow him down.

 

[cpr0312]

In my view in these instances:

1. When you ask them to prior to the particular stalk/shot
2. When a DG animal has breached the safety zone for everyones lives involved
3. When hunting in a country that has GMU's Park Boundaries, etc and the border is very near where the first shot will take place, and the discussion is had that this particular animal could be lost if not down on the first shot.

In every case, just discuss with the PH prior and make sure everyone understands the plan.

 

[sierraone]

I believe that thread is covered!!!

 

[Hunt anything]

IMO only if the PH can tell of a bad hit on DG to keep things from going sideways or in a charge.
I had a PH shoot a Kafue lechwe that I know full well was hit well and as the lechwe struggled he shot and nearly blew his ear off. I wasn’t too happy but my taxidermist was able to hide the damage pretty well.

 

[Scott CWO]

It can also depend on the vegetation cover. For brown bear, if it’s more open, I rarely shoot unless asked but I might shoot if the bear is getting out of range and is wounded. If the bear is in thick alder or on the edge of thick alder, I will shoot only if the bear is wounded and is getting into the thick cover. I had a friend get horribly mauled by a bear that made it into thick cover after the client wounded it. Nobody wants that.

My experience hunting dangerous game with a PH in Africa is about the same. So far, I haven’t had a PH fire a shot but we both agreed ahead of time that neither of us wanted to lose an animal or have to track a wounded animal into thick cover. I deferred to his experience and let safety be his determining factor for shooting. I would have no problem with a PH shooting at a DG animal that I wounded that was in or headed into heavy cover.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Everyone covered this point already. If you don’t trust your PH. You didn’t do your research.
You hired him. Hopefully you trust him to make the judgment call he feels he needs to.

I’ve only been on 2 archery Buffalo hunts. 2 different companies and 2 different PHs
I made it clear at the outset with each PH. if they saw me botch the shot and the bull would need follow up shots anyway.
They might as will make the decision now and get some lead in it. instead of tracking for hours or days and then trying to get lead in it at a less opportune time.

The first hunt I never got a good angle or within 25 yards. Second hunt it was an obvious killing shot so no followup shots were needed.


I like the point made earlier that to act like you’re on your own and did it by yourself is kind of a selfish position. after the trackers got you there and the entire team had a role in the hunt. to pretend like the hunt is ruined because somebody else helped a little is kind of a faulty argument.

 

[Bulldog1]

Thanks to all for the insightful information. I see now that the mindset of a hunter being self-sufficient is not the mindset one needs to have on a safari. I never thought of it as a team affair but if one looks at it as being a member of a team and everyone knows what's required, expected, and do their part I have a better understanding on what leads to a successful outcome.

 

[BRICKBURN]

.............. hunting dangerous game with a PH in Africa ........... let safety be his determining factor for shooting. .....

That is the absolute "should" shoot situation for a PH. Safety.

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

On my PG hunts sometimes the PH carried a rifle, but only when we were in areas that also had Buffalo roaming. On the DG hunts PH always had a rifle and we had discussed about him doing follow up shots. Only on one of my 5 Buff did he shoot. In fact we were both shooting along with apprentice PH. I made a bad first shot, hit a little to much left on a frontal. When we found the bull he didn't charge but turned to run away and we all opened up on him. But I had agreed that is what would happen if and when we located him. Put down as fast as possible.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I agree it's important for both hunter and PH to be on the same page. My first (and favorite) PH never carried a backup rifle unless we were on a property with dangerous game. He did ask me if I wanted him to finish a hartbeest with his 9mm handgun rather than waste another 30-06 round. Unknown to me, the action in my just rebedded rifle had come loose from its moorings and the gun was shooting erratically. I felt it was better that he plug it with a pistol slug rather than me blasting the down hartbeest point blank with 165 gr Partition grenade. I am conscious of wasting meat. He let me shoot both buffalo but he had my back with his 458 Lott. Last year my second PH asked me if it was okay if he took a rifle when we left the lodge to go after a kudu bull I hit poorly the night before. I told him it would be very un-okay if he didn't take a rifle! Turns out he finished the bull after we split up. I went with the trackers pushing a draw and he positioned himself at the other end. I had no problem with him shooting it. Ending the kudu's suffering as quickly as possible is all that mattered to me.

Edit: I remember now that #1 PH offered his handgun to me to finish the hartbeest and I declined. Let him do it. I'm quite sure he expected me to decline. We were that much on the same page.

 

[Dewald]

When hunting plains game I carry shooting sticks, water if we walk for long, and my old Geovid. Only bother with a rifle when in big game country.

I have only once had to shoot a zebra that was wounded. The PH and client tracked it for a few hours after a gut shot, then they felt they needed a break for a few hours. Myself and a tracker then followed, with another client who was keen to join, and when we spotted the wounded animal at 380y on the reserve boundary I shot her with the .416 Ruger. Definitely some luck and holdover involved, but it was that or the herd crossing into a communal cattle grazing area.

With plains game it should always be the goal to let the client finish his animal. With Dangerous game life and limb comes first in a charge, but I see no need for some PHs shooting as the client shoots on an otherwise calm animal, unless it is the explicit request of the client.