When showing off your new Elephant rifle goes wrong

[Ontario Hunter]

With respect - not understanding something doesn't invalidate it.

Simple analogy - a twin engined jet aircraft: the velocity of gases out of the 'engine' is the same for both engines when running. Gas velocity out of the engines provides thrust, which is what makes the jet accelerate and sustains velocity during flight. Why does the plane need both engines to take off if the gas velocity from a single engine (half the thrust) makes the plane travel at the same velocity (or accelerate at the same rate) according to you? Your theory, as best I can decipher, is that one jet engine would accelerate the plane at the same rate as two, for the same given engine settings.


How does this work - how does 'recoil' go up if the velocity of the recoiling gun is unchanged?
Twice as much force is heading out of the barrels with a simultaneous discharge - Newtons Laws tell us that twice as much force must be experience in an equal and opposite direction (recoil) compared to a single discharge.
The force in this context is acceleration. If acceleration is doubled, does velocity remain the same?
(mass of the recoiling rifle is assumed constant in both scenarios)

The better analogy is a vehicle's transmission. When it shifts gears, the same amount of energy (RPMs) produces more velocity because the vehicle is already in motion and the initial at rest gravity has been overcome once it has started moving. With the double fire, the first barrel fires starting the recoil velocity and the second barrel firing immediately after but  before recoil velocity even starts to subside = additional velocity. Remember, recoil velocity is typically measured with the gun in the starting gate when the gun is fired (think horse racing). That first fifty yards around the track is the slowest. But the next quarter mile is probably the fastest.

Does recoil velocity double during a double fire? That  might be possible if timing was perfect, i.e. the second barrel fired  exactly at the peak of the first barrel's recoil. I submit with 500gr cartridges at 2200 fps, it would be very difficult for a normal person to stay upright if the second barrel fired exactly at the peak recoil of first barrel. But the grouping of those two bullets would not be remotely close even at 25 yards.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

What this debate has accomplished is to further convince me that hunting dangerous game with a double rifle is  not the way to go. The argument has always been that the ability to fire a double rifle faster than a bolt rifle (allegedly anyway) outweighs the latter's advantage of firing more rounds without reloading. But it seems from what I'm reading here double fire is not the rarity I once thought! A double fire leaves the shooter with an empty gun and the not so remote possibility of scrambling to get back up off the ground ... while a buffalo or elephant is incoming. Yes, it is possible a bolt rifle can jam during cycling but with a well made rifle it seems that probability is much less than a double fire with a well made rifle. Even if he doesn't have a perfect grip on the gun when it goes off, the bolt gun hunter will still have something more than a club with which to defend himself. He will 1) still be on his feet and 2) capable of quickly cycling another round in the chamber.

 

[Flewis]

The only way to settle this is with a gun and shoulder. I have both but will only volunteer the shoulder.

 

[93marlin]

All I know is when I happened to me, I sure as h... felt it!
I was enough to get me to make to not do that again!!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Not only that but the title of the thread indicates a mindset that leaves much to be desired. Showing off is lame at best. It’s a weakness of human nature that is not interesting in the least bit. I suppose the only time it may be tolerable is when an even worse and overly obnoxious show off needs to be slapped down. But even then showing off is so uncool.

@Vinootz
Showing off for the person doing it seems cool to them. Others just think what a dickhead.
I know from first hand experience. I've been on both sides. I thought what a hero how wrong I was.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'm gonna say this is a bit different than that. Drinking and driving is one thing. This is a bit of another. Like I said, still not the best format probably but it isn't like tearing down the street at 100 mph when you're having to use one eye to hold it on the road

@Backyardsniper
Both can result in the same thing.
Death
Me thinks you have learnt something.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I will agree that it is sometimes difficult to convey the tone you intend in these posts. The above statement for instance is a pretty commonly used term here at home. For instance if you hit a short drive off the tee box, there is a jar you can't get open, a nut that you can't break loose, then one of your friends who is present may use the, "well you may have to put your purse down" line on you. I can see where the context does not exactly translate to banter over text though. I will own that one.

@Backyardsniper
A bit like saying you might have to put you big boy pants on.
When I fired @Badboymelvin 425
Express from his description of the recoil I thought I might need 2 pairs of big boy pants to fire it. As it was a pair of the wife's knickers would have been fine.
Now if you don't like my answer I may just have to bitch slap you with my handbag.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Mine too and pronto abandoned all ambitions for priesthood. I was eleven (Jesuit education).

@Paul Homsy
Just remember the old saying
If it's got tits or tyres you are going to have problems.
Maybe the priesthood would have been safer but where's the fun in that.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I’m not a physics guy, just a common sense guy.

There are many kinds of doubling that can occur. The most famous i think was Pondoro that wired his triggers together for a double hit? Yep, that would be maximum recoil scenario but impossible to actually calculate that recoil, sorry math guys. The reason you cannot is you can’t quite predict the amount of rearward recoil by the fact that one barrel is providing left lateral recoil and the other is providing right lateral recoil. We also cannot figure out how many milliseconds later the second shot is occurring and therefore how much the rifle is already moving for the recoil to act upon rather than by acting on a static weapon.

Then we go to normal doubling, as in when the gun is shot twice with a reasonable interval between the two shots. Tenth of a second? Fifth of a second? Nearly a second? We can’t really calculate this one either because the variable is an object in motion (from the first recoil) tends to stay in motion, so the second shot will have a greater enhancement to rearward recoil than the first shot because the gun already has momentum.

You can’t take recoil of first shot x2 as a formula. Nor can you square them. Nor can you even predict if the recoil pad is already met full resistance and is already providing forward counter recoil when the second shot goes off in which case the second shot may have less recoil than a stationary gun because it must first counter the forward recoil of the first shot recovery to initiate the second shot’s rearward recoil.

Sorry to ruin the fun with math and physics, but there are infinite variables and the time intervals between the shots and their ignition, even the powder burn rates, all would make this way too confusing to figure out.

Rough math guesstimate, if a first shot’s effective recoil is 70lbs a doubling could be anywhere from 70lbs to >140lbs.

@rookhawk
To simplify your explanation.
No matter what the sequence of events when the double occurs it's going to get your attention real quick and may result in considerable pain at impact.
Who cares about numbers it just plain hurts.

 

[Woodcarver]

I don't think I've ever seen a dead horse beaten this much.....

 

[freefall]

I don't think I've ever seen a dead horse beaten this much.....

Really? Let's talk about the .45-70 for dangerous game...

 

[Woodcarver]

Really? Let's talk about the .45-70 for dangerous game...

Very true. That horse has almost been pounded to China, lol!

 

[AimSmall]

At least now, I can say "but I read it on the internet!"

(Although those minutes are now gone, forever..)

 

[IvW]

12 to 15......is just too much......