Where do you draw that magical line between Hunter and PH cartridges?

[Shootist43]

Lots of opinions here, but doesn't it matter what game is being hunted and where? The OP didn't mention DG or PG.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Lots of opinions here, but doesn't it matter what game is being hunted and where? The OP didn't mention DG or PG.

I think that pg calibers are usually the same, regardless of whether one’s a client or a professional, @Shootist43 . Now, for dangerous game… the professionals have good reason for equip themselves with bigger calibers than their clients.

 

[WAB]

Lots of opinions here, but doesn't it matter what game is being hunted and where? The OP didn't mention DG or PG.

Does your PH carry a gun when hunting PG? I am normally hunting DG, but the times I have hunted PG the PH did not carry a gun.

 

[Scott CWO]

That thought is advanced mostly by the fanbois of rat caliber rifles that can not envision anyone doing something else.

Oh boy… I will be eating popcorn watching what will follow. Lol.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

As Tanks said I don't see a line. Shoot what you can handle and let the PH shoot what they can afford.

HH

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Does your PH carry a gun when hunting PG? I am normally hunting DG, but the times I have hunted PG the PH did not carry a gun.

Not smart, it isn't just buff and elephant that charge.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

It is very subjective, no absolute line. Each must carry what they are very good with, and in the case of the PH that means 100% good.

 

[grand veneur]

Lots of opinions here, but doesn't it matter what game is being hunted and where? The OP didn't mention DG or PG.

Because the word 458 was used by the first post, one assumes that it is mainly about hunting DG.

To hunt PG one don't usually need a backup, except for protection if there is a danger from other game during such a hunt. One can but also hunt PG with big bores, which in my opinion can be also an advantage when hunting in Africa where it is not uncommon to have problems with other species that one don't hunt at the time.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Most of the PHs I’ve hunted with carried a 458Lott. For PG, I’ve mostly carried a 338WM and a 375H&H. For buffalo and elephant, I use a 458Lott so not much difference so far. This year, I will bring my 375H&H and Lott while my PH packs a .577 double rifle. Personally, I’m not recoil sensitive but don’t see the advantage of getting a bigger caliber than my Lott as a client. My semi-custom CZ holds 5 cartridges down in the magazine, which I really like.

I've often seen .458 Lott mentioned as the recommended upper limit of "hunter calibers" in terms of recoil and energy. Anything above that point appears to start fitting under the mantra of "stopping calibers" which I'm assuming is what most PH's gravitate towards.

 

[Northern Shooter]

I think that pg calibers are usually the same, regardless of whether one’s a client or a professional, @Shootist43 . Now, for dangerous game… the professionals have good reason for equip themselves with bigger calibers than their clients.

I've read several of your posts mentioning your interest for the likes of 505Gibbs, 600 NE etc. Have you been on many hunts (as a client) where you ended up bringing a much larger cartridge than what your PH was carrying?

I wonder how rare of an occurrence that would be.

 

[Tanks]

...Have you been on many hunts (as a client) where you ended up bringing a much larger cartridge than what your PH was carrying?

I wonder how rare of an occurrence that would be.

Twice for me, rest of the time both of us had .500s. Once I was carrying a .500 MDM bolt and my PH had a .458 Lott and last year when I had a .500 NE and my PH had a .470 NE. He was wishing he did have a .500 though. As he explained to me, the .470 he had for decades was good for 99% of use cases but felt for the remaining 1% he wished to have a bigger gun.

 

[IvW]

When guiding PG only areas I carry a 375 H&H.
When guiding PG in a DG area I carry my 500 Jeff and my tracker carries my 375 or 404.
When guiding DG I carry my 500 Jeff and my tracker carries my 404.

I have been "charged" by the following wounded PG Blue wildebeest, black wildebeest, waterbuck, eland, warthog, bushbuck, gemsbuck.....what I recall now.....

 

[IvW]

I've read several of your posts mentioning your interest for the likes of 505Gibbs, 600 NE etc. Have you been on many hunts (as a client) where you ended up bringing a much larger cartridge than what your PH was carrying?

I wonder how rare of an occurrence that would be.

Larger is not always better....

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I've read several of your posts mentioning your interest for the likes of 505Gibbs, 600 NE etc. Have you been on many hunts (as a client) where you ended up bringing a much larger cartridge than what your PH was carrying?

I wonder how rare of an occurrence that would be.

IvW is right. Larger is not always better. As a matter of fact, it can actually be downright counterproductive if you aren't able to manage the recoil. And the unfortunate reality is that the bulk of client hunters who come to Africa, can't handle the recoil of these calibers. Usually the .450 bores are the upper limit of what most client hunters can handle. Especially these days.

In the days of commercial ivory hunting, the .577 Nitro Express was an almost universally accepted choice by the professionals (like Frederick Banks, Quentin Grogan, James Sutherland, Count Potocki). They never complained about the recoil. Yet, today most hunters cannot handle the kick. Is it because men have become physically weaker in modern times ?

No. The answer is because:
In the old days, the professionals had plenty of opportunity to practice with the big bores since bag limits were nonexistent. Thus, they became proficient with them over time. In modern times, most hunters won't accumulate the kind of practice necessary to be able to shoot these larger calibers with any degree of accuracy (exceptions notwithstanding).

I can shoot the .505 Gibbs and .600 Nitro Express with accuracy, but (without any intention of gloating) I've been hunting in Africa now for 49 years. And I've shot most (but not all) of my dangerous game over the years with the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum as well.

Shooting a .505 Gibbs or a .600 Nitro Express with any degree of accuracy needs a lot more practice and time than (say) a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum or a .404 Jeffery or a .416 Rigby or even a .470 Nitro Express (among others). It's not for everybody.

I've always been passionate about the .505 Gibbs and the .600 Nitro Express. And after firing them, I realized that (while recoil is definitely very noticeable) I can learn to mitigate the recoil with some practice. Maybe it was actually more difficult than I thought it was, but if you love something... then you become willing to take a few kicks in order to get used to it. Here, I should also mention that by the time I first tried either of these calibers... I had already been hunting in Africa for more than 20 years.

I eventually did hunt an American bison with a .505 Gibbs and a Tanzanian hippo bull with a .600 Nitro Express. The photos can both be seen on my media page. I unfortunately don't have access to them at the moment since I am typing this using my smartphone. And the photos are saved in my IPAD at home (which I usually use for commenting on these forums).

I'll definitely be hunting with both of these calibers again at the next possible chance that I get. But for a novice client hunter, I will always advise them to go on their first African safari with a .375 or a .404 or a .416 or a .458 of some sort. Unless, of course... If they can actually handle the recoil of the bigger bores.

I eventually learnt that I personally can (speaking for myself). But every hunter should exercise their individual discretion and assess for themselves as to whether or not they can comfortably handle a big bore. Rather than just try to do it forcefully.

 

[sureshot375]

That thought is advanced mostly by the fanbois of rat caliber rifles that can not envision anyone doing something else.

Your average hunter is in generally going to be more likely to shoot a .375 better than a larger caliber. For every guy that takes a .500 NE to Africa and can really shoot it well, there are 5 who can't hit a damn thing. If someone is asking for my advice I usually suggest a bolt .375. I think this is the advice that most PH's would give. If someone can shoot a big bore well, they probably aren't asking for advice about what to take. The thing that matters more than anything is the ability to accurately place that first shot. I don't think anyone should feel under gunned with a .375. Wonder if the name ratgun fanboi is already taken? I may need to update. lol

 

[Hunting Hitman]

In the end it’s all about practice. When I first started pursuing dangerous game in Africa I read some African hunting articles and decided on the 470 Nitro Express in Heym 88B. I took it to the range with factory Hornady Ammunition and started to learn to shoot it. A couple of hundred shots over the next few months and I had it down.
Every year I shoot around 1000 rounds of rifle ammunition in different calibers to stay proficient and cull the animals on various properties.
I never look at a caliber with fear just the knowledge that the larger ones take practice and having a rifle that has the appropriate weight.
That’s probably the biggest issue most hunters have when shooting large bore rifles…they are underweight and kick unnecessarily hard. I’ve said many times on this forum that the extra weight of a large bore rifle doesn’t bother me at all and I would rather feel comfortable shooting a “heavier” rifle than worry about the extra one or two pounds of weight.
Also when I’ve hunted Africa the only times I have more gun than the PH is when I bring the 505 Gibbs but will soon be adding the 577 Nitro Express to the arsenal.

HH

 

[Roller]

Shoot what you want. This is a hobby, not a job. I personally find the 416RM to be a fantastic, easy shooting cartridge great for DG and bushveld conditions plains game. Others consider it an unnecessary artillery piece and others a "rat caliber". Discovering what you like and shoot well is part of the fun. Shot placement is infinitely more important than caliber.

 

[318AE]

Does your PH carry a gun when hunting PG? I am normally hunting DG, but the times I have hunted PG the PH did not carry a gun.

That has been my experience as well - in strictly PG only areas, the PH didn’t carry gun, at least not a rifle (sometimes a pistol in RSA). Sometimes there was a rifle behind the bench seat of the bakkie

 

[Tanks]

...

In the days of commercial ivory hunting, the .577 Nitro Express was an almost universally accepted choice by the professionals (like Frederick Banks, Quentin Grogan, James Sutherland, Count Potocki). They never complained about the recoil. Yet, today most hunters cannot handle the kick. Is it because men have become physically weaker in modern times ?

No. The answer is because:
In the old days, the professionals had plenty of opportunity to practice with the big bores since bag limits were nonexistent. Thus, they became proficient with them over time. In modern times, most hunters won't accumulate the kind of practice necessary to be able to shoot these larger calibers with any degree of accuracy (exceptions notwithstanding).

...

And that is the shame of it. People will plan and dream for months, maybe years for that African hunt yet will not take the time to practice with the most important tool they have for the hunt. Gun ranges are plenty. Heck, I live in CA where they have been dwindling, and still can find one to go to on at least a weekly basis within 30 minutes of driving.

 

[318AE]

I get the sense that the vast majority of DG hunted in Africa today is buffalo. I recognize there are some very experienced and frequent elephant hunters on this forum. We are fortunate that they share their experiences. However, for most, my sense is that buffalo is likely the upper limit of their dangerous game pursuits.

Most all of these charismatic large bore calibers were introduced in the heyday of commercial ivory hunting, when the recent transition to cordite from black powder, and the regulation of the military 458 caliber in the British colonies, lead to a plethora of large bore cartridges, each with their own advocates and proponents. Most of these cartridges larger than 458 were designed with pachyderms in mind. Had buffalo been the primary intended quarry, I doubt many of these DG cartridges would ever have been introduced.

The large bores exude nostalgia and are simply a lot of fun. I think it’s a waste to keep them in a safe or museum - shoot them, take them to Africa, enjoy them. Having said all that, there is no comparing a buffalo shot in the heart with a 375, and one shot a little too far back with a 470; so I recommend hunting with a large bore because you want to and can (shoot it well), not because you need to. At least for buffalo. Elephant is a little different game in my experience.