Which doubles (if any) have an un-cocking mechanism aside from the Krieghoff?

[Gareth Roriston]

Gentlemen,

Please share your knowledge: Is anyone able to enlighten me on a double other than the Krieghoff that is capable of being loaded but un-cocked?

I'm intrigued by the de-cocking mechanism of the Krieghoff. I've always been drawn to doubles for the obvious reasons of the instant second shot, reduced length and pointability, but get a little put off by having the springs under constant tension in the field. This is especially as I would like to use one for Trails Guiding not just hunting, whereby one is carrying the rifle for up to eight hrs in the field. This seems too long to me to have the springs under tension for both reasons of safety and mechanical longevity especially when guiding daily throughout each season.

 

[Red Leg]

Blaser S2. Great rifle. PM me if you want any details

 

[HWL]

...... but get a little put off by having the springs under constant tension in the field. .......to have the springs under tension for both reasons of safety and mechanical longevity especially when guiding daily throughout each season.

Really not a problem for coil springs of the more recently firearms.

Not even leg spring operated firearms have a problem, as long as they do not spend their life cocked in the gun safe.

So, do not worry about this.


HWL

 

[mark-hunter]

Interesting question!
To make a bit wider subject: is there any O/U shotgun with same feature?

 

[Gareth Roriston]

Blaser S2. Great rifle. PM me if you want any details

Thank you.
I reviewed the specs. Great suggestion. The Blaser is indeed a great rifle. Personally for my purposes the Krieghoff is ahead for me in that upon closing the action it is ready to fire and the springs can then be eased to de-cock the rifle. To my understanding the Blaser S2 upon closing needs to have the cocking system engaged and is not by default "at the ready" upon closing the action.
Why is the above important: I primarily intend to use a double rifle for Trails Guiding in DG areas. The rifle will only be discharged under very critical conditions. In this case my protocol is to either run the bolt or in this case engage the cocking device as the animal makes its initial charge, here is where I feel the Krieghoff and Blaser part ways as I can see it. Lets say I release two shots the animal is wounded, but still coming I quickly reload...With the Krieghoff it appears I can snap off another shot straight away upon closing the action; With the Blaser I have one more small step before discharging a third and fourth shot. This small step is also subject to handling errors. As there are times where I will not have an armed back-up I would like to eliminate any and all extra steps, however i appreciate the suggestion as it is narrowing down my options.

 

[Gareth Roriston]

Really not a problem for coil springs of the more recently firearms.

Not even leg spring operated firearms have a problem, as long as they do not spend their life cocked in the gun safe.

So, do not worry about this.


HWL

Thank you,

Please let me know your thoughts regarding the following:
Carrying the rifle without the springs engaged seems safer than relying on the safety only. Should the safety be disengaged and something such as brush or equipment snag the trigger it could be disastrous. Improbable, but still feasible. The de-cocking device appears a little safer, more deliberate somewhat akin to carrying a bolt action in stage 2.

 

[Red Leg]

The other most dangerous animal on a dangerous game hunt is the inexperienced guy with a double. All guns should be treated as if loaded and "off safe" all the time. On a stalk for buffalo or elephant, chambers are typically loaded, and the client needs to be constantly aware of where the muzzles are pointing and that the safety is engaged. But a stumble, a fall, simple excitement or inattention can lead to a tragedy. The advantage to the Krieghoff and Blaser (the S2 is out of production, but still available on the used market - and is also the system used on the currently produced Blaser R8) is that the rifle is not merely "on safe", but it is actually not cocked. It can not fire no matter what is done because the hammer spring has not been put under tension until the cocking button/spanner has been pushed forward. It takes a bit more effort than a standard safety, but I don't even notice it on my Blaser S2 or R8. Primary safety responsibility always resides with the shooter, but the K-gun and Blaser systems are the safest mechanical assist the shooter can have.

Thank you.
I reviewed the specs. Great suggestion. The Blaser is indeed a great rifle. Personally for my purposes the Krieghoff is ahead for me in that upon closing the action it is ready to fire and the springs can then be eased to de-cock the rifle. To my understanding the Blaser S2 upon closing needs to have the cocking system engaged and is not by default "at the ready" upon closing the action.
Why is the above important: I primarily intend to use a double rifle for Trails Guiding in DG areas. The rifle will only be discharged under very critical conditions. In this case my protocol is to either run the bolt or in this case engage the cocking device as the animal makes its initial charge, here is where I feel the Krieghoff and Blaser part ways as I can see it. Lets say I release two shots the animal is wounded, but still coming I quickly reload...With the Krieghoff it appears I can snap off another shot straight away upon closing the action; With the Blaser I have one more small step before discharging a third and fourth shot. This small step is also subject to handling errors. As there are times where I will not have an armed back-up I would like to eliminate any and all extra steps, however i appreciate the suggestion as it is narrowing down my options.

Technically yes, and a reason a number of traditionalist (Terry Weiland perhaps the most vocal) are critical of it. But it is simply a different manual of arms to learn. And I would be surprised if you find many instances where an inbound dangerous game animal gave you more than two shots. But both rifles are excellent, and are typically very accurate for doubles. You might also look at the R8. You have the advantage of configuring it as a DG rifle in something like .375 or .416 Rem while at work, and quickly re-configuring in .300 for a plains game hunt to fill the larder. It's straight pull ejection is incredibly fast. I have taken buffalo with both the S2 and R8 and am convinced I could double tap one equally fast with either rifle.

 

[Gareth Roriston]

Much to cogitate. Thank you for the insight.

 

[IvW]

Thank you.

Why is the above important: I primarily intend to use a double rifle for Trails Guiding in DG areas. The rifle will only be discharged under very critical conditions. In this case my protocol is to either run the bolt or in this case engage the cocking device as the animal makes its initial charge, here is where I feel the Krieghoff and Blaser part ways as I can see it. Lets say I release two shots the animal is wounded, but still coming I quickly reload...With the Krieghoff it appears I can snap off another shot straight away upon closing the action;

Not sure where you will be conducting these Guiding tours in DG areas and what your experience is. What I can tell you is that when you are guiding foot safaris in DG areas the chances of getting into a situation where you need to use your rifle are very small. The biggest possibility of getting in trouble comes from elephant bulls in musth and elephant cows with small calves. An experienced guide will recognize this and keep the group safe. The next would be black rhino, chances are slim of guiding in such an area. Buffalo pose no threat. Lion as well unless it is a male courting a female or a female with small cubs again an experienced guide would stay well clear.

In the event that the pawpaw does strike the fan, there are clear guidelines as to when and when not it would be justified to shoot. With elephant this would be 10-15 feet on a walking safari. So the chances of getting off a second shot is very slim the chances of a 3rd of 4th shot well not going to happen. If one cannot get it sorted with the first shot or at most the second shot one should probably not be guiding in the first place.

Yes the de-cocking feature is a great safety point to have on a double.

Having said that a large bore bolt action is probably the most used guide gun. It can be carried with an empty chamber all day long yet loaded when the guide realizes things are going south. Again a experienced guide will know well in advance when he needs to load the rifle. Typically there will be two armed guides on such a safari or the one tracker will also have a rifle.

So in reality yes a double makes sense especially when having the de cocking feature for added safety. But planning to re-load and get off 4 shots for a guide is wishful thinking.

Bolt action carried as above is the safest option and all the fire power you will need for guiding on foot safaris.

 

[Bullhunter]

There are some Heym, with the cooking-mechanic. (The same series like 80, 80 b, pp., same design, but with an cooking-mechanic, like the Krieghoff.)
10 - 15 years before, they made them regulary.

 

[HWL]

Thank you,

Please let me know your thoughts regarding the following:
Carrying the rifle without the springs engaged seems safer than relying on the safety only. Should the safety be disengaged and something such as brush or equipment snag the trigger it could be disastrous. Improbable, but still feasible. The de-cocking device appears a little safer, more deliberate somewhat akin to carrying a bolt action in stage 2.

Handling a gun is always dangerous....

The problem is not the gun, no springs, no safeties no choking devices,.... the problem is between the ears of the hunter.

While hunting, your gun has to be loaded and ready for action, otherwise you can stay at home.

Make sure, that your safety is in SAFE position and always point your rifle in a safe diretion.

I personally prefere tang safeties on doubles and flag safties on magazine rifles.

I do not like choking devices, because I am to old to change my habits.

And choking needs time,.... you, may be, do not have in a close encounter.

Imagine, you always had to choke your shotgun at a trap or skeet range.....


HWL

 

[Nhoro]

Having said that a large bore bolt action is probably the most used guide gun. It can be carried with an empty chamber all day long yet loaded when the guide realizes things are going south. Again a experienced guide will know well in advance when he needs to load the rifle.

Lots of truth in IvW's post. I carry on an empty chamber (bolt action) and then load chamber and put on safety if we are close to an animal. I walked by myself in the bush with no weapon for years and I am still around. Dangerous situations are few and far between and negligent discharges are actually more common. Ask a PH for their closest brush with death and most will tell a story with a gun going bang unexpectedly.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Ones one had some training with one’s firearm one can cock Blaser/Krieghoff style “safety” as fast as use any other safety style. I cock both my K double and my R8 while bringing them into the shoulder. I can do it quicker (and quieter) than swinging the safety off on my M70. I own guns with both systems and to me de-cocking is superior to standard safety. Ones used to it it’s not any slower and the gun cannot fire accidently. There are more and more guns being made employing this system. Most European made single shots from Merkel through Blaser and Kreighoff to Fanzoj use cocking rather than safety switch. There are bolt action rifles made in that style by Sauer, Blaser, Steyr, Mauser and probably others. It is safer. However it cannot be disputed that the most important safety is in between the hunter’s ears. Uncounted number of hunters hunted safely for decades with traditional guns simply due to safe firearm handling technique.

 

[Pondoro]

I own both a vintage british double in .475NE and a Krieghoff double in .470NE. While the old brit gun is nice to own and use I must say that the de-cocking device on the Krieghoff is a big leap forward safetywise..

I cannot for the life of me understand the critics...I cock the rifle as fast as pushing the safety forward on the brit rifle.....the Krieghoff is a real gem IMHO..

 

[Red Leg]

What @Pondoro and @Opposite Pole said.

 

[Philip Glass]

I have a new K gun and find the safety to be something that gives me piece of mind. Safety is so important!
Also our R8’s operate on the same principal.

 

[Gareth Roriston]

Lots of truth in IvW's post. I carry on an empty chamber (bolt action) and then load chamber and put on safety if we are close to an animal. I walked by myself in the bush with no weapon for years and I am still around. Dangerous situations are few and far between and negligent discharges are actually more common. Ask a PH for their closest brush with death and most will tell a story with a gun going bang unexpectedly.

Same, with the exception of the safety. My preference is an empty chamber, bolt forward, no safety (stage 2).
Same experience again on walking time unarmed. I've spent 1000's of hrs many of them solo in DG areas unarmed as a Warden. For me the rifle is insurance and due care for clients.

 

[HWL]

I cannot for the life of me understand the critics...I cock the rifle as fast as pushing the safety forward on the brit rifle.....the Krieghoff is a real gem IMHO..

It's NOT critics, it's just another opinion....

In my hands, my tang safety is way faster, quieter and with less force to push than any choking system, especially when you have to choke two! locks with the single lever.

The real problem are the guys which think, they do not have to follow safety regulations any more, because their gun in unckoked.

You constantly have to look into the muzzles of their guns.... I definately do not like.

Sorry, I am German, and I believe in gun drill & safety regulations....


HWL