Who’s done it? Cape buffalo or elephant with traditional large bore muzzleloader?

[Certus]

When I say this I don’t mean a cartridge shooting bore rifle or a muzzleloading rifle using smokeless and a scope etc. No sabots, monometal a (except lead).

I mean a true proper style muzzleloader, 12 bore or larger, percussion or flintlock. Using the holy Black.

Why’d you chose it? Story? Pics? Video?
Even if someone you know did it instead of you then I’d love to hear about it.
Or even just any internet articles you’re aware of I can read.

I think if I wanted to try it I’d opt for an 8 bore with hardened round ball. 4 bore is just too much to want to practice with.

Im going through a phase again of interest in muzzleloaders, as my 10 bore (large 10 at .797”) Fergusson is slooowly edging closer to completion. Needs a bit more metalwork and then a stock made. Its chamber is cut for a reasonably light (for caliber) load of 160gr 2F behind a 770gr (ish) pure lead round ball.
Why this? Didn’t want massive charges since it won’t be used for dangerous game.

 

[Certus]

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

F.C.Selous used one in the 1880’s, or did you mean recently
Gumpy

 

[fourfive8]

Yes, Selous beginning in 1871 through about 1881. He used a 4 bore loaded with a 1750 gr lead round ball over about 410 gr of coarse grade BP. He later lamented ever using that gun as he swore the recoil ruined his shooting ability because of the recoil. His tracker once double charged it just before shooting an elephant with the resulting recoil causing severe lacerations and breaking the stock. This info is from: A Hunter’s Wanderings In Africa by Selous, pgs 73 & 111.

 

[Boone66]

I haven't killed anything with it yet, but I did build a 8 bore with a screw less Nock lock.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

DendaalYes, Selous beginning in 1871 through about 1881. He used a 4 bore loaded with a 1750 gr lead round ball over about 410 gr of coarse grade BP. He later lamented ever using that gun as he swore the recoil ruined his shooting ability because of the recoil. His tracker once double charged it just before shooting an elephant with the resulting recoil causing severe lacerations and breaking the stock. This info is from: A Hunter’s Wanderings In Africa by Selous, pgs 73 & 111.

Yes, I’ve got the book
Didn’t Gert Odendall use one recently?
Gumpy

 

[Red Leg]

Assuming the client is not an expert with open sights on heavy recoiling firearms, and doesn't have years of experience with heavy BP rifles, it sounds like a great way to screw up on a dangerous game hunt where a number of other people will be put at risk.

 

[Boone66]

Assuming the client is not an expert with open sights on heavy recoiling firearms, and doesn't have years of experience with heavy BP rifles, it sounds like a great way to screw up on a dangerous game hunt where a number of other people will be put at risk.

I would hope that anyone doing this would take a couple years of shooting it on a regular basis to prepare. I shoot irons quite a bit as well as heavy recoiling guns, and I would still go back to basics and drill constantly with mine, as well as hunt local game with it a couple years before I took it to Africa and definitely have a big bore cartridge rifle as a back up.

 

[Bejane]

Some old topic on it, mayeb do a more in depth search on this forum

Thread '.58 caliber double rifle.....Buffalo ?'

Aug 10, 2013

I wish to hunt Cape Buffalo with black powder. I have a Pedersoli .58 cal double rifle. I'm hitting a 2" group at 75 yards with 110 grains of Pyrodex RS. My question is with a 425 grain conical bullet do I have enough gun? Or should I get the .72 cal barrels? I have never hunted Buff and do not want to be a danger to myself or those with me. Because I'm under gunned.

• A.Sharpe
• Replies: 35
• Forum: Muzzleloaders & black powder

I think your issue will be travelling with BP, don't think the airlines will allow it.

you could get BP in South Africa, maybe that the country to target to shoot a Buff

 

[Hunter-Habib]

During the 1970s, I recall reading an article about a gentleman named Mr. Turner Kirkland (owner of Dixie Gun Works) who had recently taken an elephant bull in South Africa with a double barreled 4 gauge muzzle loading rifle and spherical balls driven by black powder. He had a very difficult time doing it though. Apparently the velocity was not high enough and the lead projectiles were too soft.

When I was the DFO (Divisional Forest Officer) in charge of the Chittagong Hill Tracts from 1972-1979, Asiatic jungle elephant poaching was a very serious problem back in those days. The MOG tribesmen were poaching them in order to sell the ivory to Myanmar by smuggling them through the Burmese border. They were armed with locally made flintlock muzzle loading smoothbores with barrels roughly six feet long. These threw a three ounce hardened lead ball, backed by a handful of locally made black powder (this was made from saltpetre extracted from bat guano by the MOG poachers). The MOH poachers used to have a highly efficient but extremely cruel method of poaching elephants. They would sneak up on a resting herd and fire into the knees of the pachyderms at close range (under 20 yards). The heavy spherical lead balls would crack & splinter the elephant leg bones. Since an elephant can’t move on three legs (on account of it’s massive five to six ton weight), the wounded elephants would just stand still… out of fear that their leg bones would snap if they tried to move. Those that tried to move, would end up having their leg bones snap and fall to the ground… unable to get up anymore.

After the MOG poachers fired so many shots that the elephant herd got spooked & dashed away for safety, the poachers would turn their attention towards the immobilized elephants and would begin blazing away at them until the elephants were dead. Sometimes, they would need as many as a dozen shots per elephant.

Once my men & I ambushed a group of poachers while they were in the act of crippling a herd of elephants. A group of crippled elephants had to be euthanized. It was the most sickening thing I had ever witnessed. Them lying helpless but still alive like that. I went after a lot of poachers in my career as a forest officer, but going after those MOG poachers was one of the very few times when I actually enjoyed it.

In the 19th century, some successful elephant hunters that employed muzzle loaders were:
William Cotton Oswell
William Finaughty
Samuel White Baker
F.C Sealous

I personally consider William Cotton Oswell to have been the most successful out of all of them. He exclusively used a James Purdey & Sons 10 gauge double barrel smoothbore ball gun. Charge was six drams of Curtis & Harvey’s #3 fine grained black powder and a 1/10 LB spherical lead ball (hardened with tin & antimony). He calculated that (on average) a cow elephant required one body shot while a bull elephant required two.

 

[fourfive8]

That’s a good synopsis and perspective @Hunter-Habib. One of the articles in IIRC a muzzleloader book, like one of the Lyman series, went into great detail about all the planning of a great muzzleloader DG safari. One hunter did a lot of range work with a conical pushed pretty hard out of a 58 cal short percussion rifle. Seemed like a good plan and prep? Sure enough the elephant shot on this hunt required finishing off with a 458 Mag. The visions of a grand anachronism sullied by a harsh reality.

If I remember, I’ll look up the book/article when I get home and post details.

 

[Certus]

@Grumpy gumpy yes, modern.

@Red Leg instead of assuming the person doing it isn’t practiced, let’s assume a positive instead and that they are, hey? But I’m asking about people who HAVE done it, and how’d it go.

@Bejane not the same topic. I went through every page in the muzzleloading section, read every topic that looked like it could be relevant, and found nothing. Perhaps read the thread you linked, and read the post I made. You’ll see the difference in the question.

@fourfive8 - yeah .58 is regarded as way too small. Compare it to a .585 cartridge gun and it’s got nothing. Even compared to a .458. Hence why my question is asking about large bore muzzleloaders, starting as 12b (still on small side).

@Boone66 nicely done!

 

[Dirtdart]

I believe this is the article @fourfive8 was referring to from the Lyman Black Powder Handbook.

Debra Bradbury was kind enough to send me a complete collection of Blackpowder Hunting magazine when she discontinued publication. If memory serves there are some articles about this subject. It will take some time but if you are interested I will see what I can dig up.

I have no personal experience using muzzleloaders of any type on DG.

 

[Dirtdart]

There is a chapter in this book that the op will find interesting.

 

[fourfive8]

Here's the article I think @Hunter-Habib was referring to. It was written up in one of the Lyman series, Black Powder Handbook, 1974. Val Forgett, the founder of Navy Arms, went on safari including elephant. He used a 58 caliber short "Hawken like" rifle. Wounded a bull elephant that ended up having to be finished with a 458 Mag. Notice how misleading the whole article is. Showing pictures of the muzzleloader that crippled the bull and a double rifle that was never fired in the charge after the wounding. But in the article it was insinuated that the muzzleloader shot would have been "fatal". Creative writing can lead to and create all kinds of misleading conclusions if not read carefully

My only take away from the whole thing was, and repeating an often quoted phrase, with one modification: "Use enough of the right kind of gun firing the right bullet"

 

[Huvius]

Why anyone would try a 58cal muzzle loader on an elephant escapes me.

I do have a 12 bore (Pedersoli African Hunter) and an 8 bore Rodda.
Either of these is a different animal over a 58cal and with the correct projectile would certainly be reasonable for game up to and including buffalo I'd think.

 

[Certus]

Why anyone would try a 58cal muzzle loader on an elephant escapes me.

I do have a 12 bore (Pedersoli African Hunter) and an 8 bore Rodda.
Either of these is a different animal over a 58cal and with the correct projectile would certainly be reasonable for game up to and including buffalo I'd think.

Exactly. .58 is a plains game muzzleloader, really.

@Dirtdart only if you wish to put in the time.

@fourfive8 yep, agreed. That’s a failed hunt and all the Hawken did was annoy it.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Here's the article I think @Hunter-Habib was referring to. It was written up in one of the Lyman series, Black Powder Handbook, 1974. Val Forgett, the founder of Navy Arms, went on safari including elephant. He used a 58 caliber short "Hawken like" rifle. Wounded a bull elephant that ended up having to be finished with a 458 Mag. Notice how misleading the whole article is. Showing pictures of the muzzleloader that crippled the bull and a double rifle that was never fired in the charge after the wounding. But in the article it was insinuated that the muzzleloader shot would have been "fatal". Creative writing can lead to and create all kinds of misleading conclusions if not read carefully

My only take away from the whole thing was, and repeating an often quoted phrase, with one modification: "Use enough of the right kind of gun firing the right bullet"

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@fourfive8
Yes, I also read this one. But the article I was referring to, featured a gentleman named Turner Kirkland (owner of Dixie Gun Works) who attempted to use a 4 gauge William Rawbone muzzle loading double rifle on an elephant in Rhodesia. This was also featured in one of the early Lyman books.

 

[Aaron N]

Doesn’t @Gert Odendaal do an annual black powder historical hunt? Maybe he can point you in the right direction

 

[Tanks]

I don't think one can carry black powder or substitutes on an airplane. So, that would have to be sourced locally.