Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

[HankBuck]

I have not hunted African Lion, captive or otherwise. As a person who hasn't done either version, I am trying to understand why this version of captive bred animal hunt draws such disdain from many members on the site who seem otherwise relatively unbothered by other species being bred for hunting.

I know some members seem opposed to all versions of ranches/farms for hunting and only prefer free range wild animals, which I understand their position. But even with that, it seems that CBL hunts seem to draw a lot more heat. So I would assume there must be something different about the style of hunt or the practice that some members are more opposed to that I don't know about, that makes them so much worse in your eyes than Plains Game hunting on a ranch in South Africa.

Please help me to understand why CBL hunts are so much worse to you than PG preserve hunts.
Thanks

@Sabre - my guess is that you already “understand” but your post should get things lively quick

 

[Nomsag]

I was completely against CBL hunting, but with the announcement of SA possibly ending them, I booked a hunt last November, for fear of never being able to afford a wild lion hunt.
It was a walk and stalk hunt. We were charged by the lion and it was the best adrenaline rush that I have ever experienced. Much better than I thought it was going to be. I was shaking for 30 minutes after it was over.
I will never do another CBL hunt again, as I hope to save for a wild lion, but as for experience, I can’t imagine a wild lion from a blind being as incredible of hunt as the CBL
A little different perspective from someone that was against CBL, but had a great time.

Jackie

 

[Lumaberpat]

I’ve never been to Africa, but wonder… anyone considered that with the new South African law seemingly banning CBL combined a surplus of Cage bred lions. Maybe a there will be a business opportunity for a specialized large high fence ranch to start a self sustaining population for hunting.

Even if they end up using mostly feral Pygmy goats and pigs for feed, it could be a middle way at a middle price point.

 

[Nyati]

 

[pilar]

I’m not really interested in hunting for anything that I can’t import back to the USA
My buddy just got his polar bear replica delivered to his trophy room from a bow hunt
No judgment here but I’m not interested in killing for a plastic replica with a photo beside it to vindicate the fact I harvested it

 

[Flbt]

I have not hunted African Lion, captive or otherwise. As a person who hasn't done either version, I am trying to understand why this version of captive bred animal hunt draws such disdain from many members on the site who seem otherwise relatively unbothered by other species being bred for hunting.

I know some members seem opposed to all versions of ranches/farms for hunting and only prefer free range wild animals, which I understand their position. But even with that, it seems that CBL hunts seem to draw a lot more heat. So I would assume there must be something different about the style of hunt or the practice that some members are more opposed to that I don't know about, that makes them so much worse in your eyes than Plains Game hunting on a ranch in South Africa.

Please help me to understand why CBL hunts are so much worse to you than PG preserve hunts.
Thanks

I have no idea about lion hunting. And really do not care how someone chose to hunt them.
But would a raised lion have the same temperament of a wild one?

I know cattle that are feed and water every day they see and are around people
Are a lot less aggressive.
Than cattle left out on a range and only see people when they are worked.

 

[DieJager]

I’m not really interested in hunting for anything that I can’t import back to the USA
My buddy just got his polar bear replica delivered to his trophy room from a bow hunt
No judgment here but I’m not interested in killing for a plastic replica with a photo beside it to vindicate the fact I harvested it

Vindicate for who? I am hunting for myself. Not for the trophy to hang in my house. Lots of species I cannot import. Photo is enough. It is about the hunt, if I can export a trophy all the better but not necessary. Preferred yes, necessary no.

If I leave this world I can't bring anything with me, my memories is all I need.

 

[DieJager]

But would a raised lion have the same temperament of a wild one?

More people get charged by a CBL than a wild one. They are not afraid of humans.

 

[Rare Breed]

I’ve hunted one CBL (Captive Bred Lion), but all the other lions which I’ve hunted were the wild specimens in Tanzania. Aside from hunting hippopotamus bulls on land in the sugarcane fields at night, hunting wild lion (especially an on foot stalk) ranks as my favorite form of African dangerous game hunting. Hopefully, I will be back for another very soon.

Personally speaking, CBL hunting is just not for me and can never compare to hunting truly wild lion. Not in a million years. But (without boasting or trying to show off about my financial status) this is only because I can afford to hunt wild lion once every few years. A luxury which not every hunter can afford (and we must always strive to think about our fellow hunters including those who are on tighter budgets than we are). For them, a properly regulated CBL hunt comes reasonably close to the real thing (although obviously not entirely).

But if somebody goes around saying that hunting CBL lions is completely risk-free and akin to shooting fish in a barrel… Well, then they have absolutely no business talking about lion hunting in the first place. Unfortunately, the old adage goes “The most ignorant voices are the loudest”. If you ask me, CBL hunting isn’t the biggest threat to the future of hunting. It’s self righteous hunters with a “Holier than thou” attitude. And the wealthier they are, the more condescending they are towards forms of hunting aimed at the more budget oriented hunters. Somebody here said “The lower the price, the more flexible people's perception of ethics become.”. Well, that works both ways. The wealthier a person is, the more stringent their perception of ethics seems to become. So all that serves to prove, is that we’re each only as ethical as our budget permits.

If you can afford it, go for a wild lion hunt.
BUT
with a proper outfitter, a CBL lion hunt can be a very exciting one (although there are plenty of unethical outfits that conduct CBL hunts in the most depraved of manners). Feel free to drop me a line if you’d like to get in touch with my outfitter. I assure you that you will have a very regal time.

P.S: CBL lions do have certain behavioral differences than truly wild lion. But this not not make them much less dangerous.View attachment 668095View attachment 668096View attachment 668097View attachment 668098

Extremely well said!!!!!

 

[Rare Breed]

Just go look at my posted video about my CBL hunt on AH showing the charge after my shot with my 500 NE with 570 grain TSX through the ear then ricochet through both lungs finally dropping at 7 yards…different temperament from a wild lion… I think not

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

And yet again the conversation has devolved to the experience of the hunt which is of lesser importance than conservation value and not even a critique of CBL practices

 

[Skshyk]

Personally I am against hunting anything that is caged.... especially a lion.

 

[375Fox]

As always, @Hunter-Habib you are the voice of wisdom based on a lifetime of experience.

I have hunted two CBL lionesses and enjoyed both hunts. Those were tracking hunts where on the second one, we found lioness tracks on top of ours. She knew we were tracking her and decided to hunt us hunters! While traversing through areas with brush tall and thick enough for lions to hide within 3 meters of the lioness trail, I wasn’t scared but that lioness darn sure had my attention! Certainly tracking a truly wild lion would be as or probably more dangerous!

The anti climax of CBL hunts are lions be they wild or CBL have NO fear of humans. At 50 meters where any lion could truely be dangerous, a CBL sits or lays almost motionless piercing the hunter with their amber daggers of eyes. For anyone with above average shooting ability, the kill shot is pretty easy. Let me add that only a darn fool would prevoke any lion to charge. Sucide by lion would not be enjoyable...

Aren’t most wild lion hunts conducted using bait? Now, sitting quietly in a blind close to lion bait is a certainly an art, but if conducted correctly is there any danger? Perhaps not so long as the hunter delivers a bullet into the lion’s kill zone. But, if a hunter flinches on the shot, or the lion moves as the hunter is squeezing the trigger, then there is a wounded lion for the PH to “sort out”.

Personally, I prefer tracking hunts. I sit in my blind for many hours over many days to slay a couple whitetails every November. After a couple days, well it gets a little boring. Now, there is a time and place for setting up an ambush to bushwhack an animal. For me, it is satisfying to track an animal and figure out where the animal WILL be and go forward to set up an ambush there.

So, to each their own form of lion hunting. Wild lion if one can afford them and if they enjoy many nights in a blind waiting, and waiting. Or, a properly executed CBL hunt from a reputable PH outfitter for the rest of us.

Certainly the longer a CBL is feeding itself, the likelihood of a challenging hunt will increase with time. But that increase may not be proportional. How long does a CBL take to “go wild”? A few days perhaps to reach maybe 75% (just a guess). Afterward, CBL’s slowly become more wild over the next days and weeks. A study of such based on a sample set of 50 would be very interesting. A hypothesis could be CBL’s go 75% wild in an average of three days with a rapidly decreasing rate over the following days and weeks. A second hypothesis could be CBL’s only on average only reach a 95% wild state after three months.

How do we judge if a lion is truly wild? What criteria do we use? How do we quantify those criteria? What about smart and dumb lions? Certainly even wild lions have differing degrees of intelligence.

So there are many variables to wild lions and CBL’s. Hunting each also has many variables. What about the outfitter? Is the PH ethical or not? Based on what degree of ethical behavior? Gosh knows. Once again, to each their own.

Hunt safely, shoot well.

Wild lion hunts are done over bait because a hunter and PH must be selective. A male greater than 6 years or in the few lioness hunts one without cubs. Most outfitters will require an 18 or a 21 day hunt to give highest chance of success. Every CBL lion stocked on a property will be harvested. That’s the only reason it exists on the property. There are no cubs. Hunts are 1-3 days(?) and 99.9%(?) success. Whether a hunter wounds a CBL lion or a wild lion the PH will be involved in the follow up. CBL is much more likely to result in a charge and the PH shooting.

 

[CBeck]

If the difference between CBL hunting and wild lions is as big as the difference between released and wild pheasant hunting I don’t know why anyone has interest in CBL.

I have hunted hundreds of wild and released pheasant. I’ll still use released birds to train/expose a young dog but can’t imagine paying money to hunt them for any other reason.

Well, in my part of Georgia, Bob White quail were once abundant….now, they are gone except for the large plantations that manage exclusively for them. I haven’t seen a covey on my land in 20 years.

I’d rather hunt pen raised birds than no birds at all….and if the only opportunity I have to hunt lion was as CB, I feel the same, but that’s just me.

I’m not entirely convinced ethics is the right word, but I certainly agree that the size of one’s pocket book correlates closely to where you toe the line on this subject.

 

[Hunt anything]

More people get charged by a CBL than a wild one. They are not afraid of humans.

I’m more afraid of a fenced in dog than a dog that has gone feral, the feral turn tail and run while a dog in a fence will bite!
My unimportant opinion is if you can afford a wild lion, hunt one, if you can’t and want to hunt a lion do a CBL hunt, but do your homework and make sure it meets your ethics/morals. You’re really the only one that matters.

 

[BJH65]

As always, Hunter-Habib and Mark Ouellette thoughtfully summed up CBL hunting as best that it could be. I have myself done some extensive research on the subject of CBL, by researching many old threads on this forum and interviewing several African PH’s and those in SA with firsthand knowledge of CBL hunting that have both filmed and participated, which I won’t share on a public forum.

The information is there if one desires to do the research, most on this forum won’t. Because of the controversy, no, there isn’t a clear comprehensive documented summary of the history, evolution and current state of CBL hunting in detail. One must gather information and put it all together to gain a better understanding. For those forum members demanding detailed answers, you’re not going to get them on a public forum.

Rare Breed stated the danger as well. A tracking hunt will certainly be more dangerous than hunting from a blind over bait and CBL may be be actually more dangerous than wild lion. CBL hunting is something I’ve contemplated, I still have mixed feelings on this subject nor are we certain how long CBL hunting will be available. The future is uncertain. I’ll gladly share what I’ve learned for those that want to message me.

 

[Russ16]

Well, in my part of Georgia, Bob White quail were once abundant….now, they are gone except for the large plantations that manage exclusively for them. I haven’t seen a covey on my land in 20 years.

I’d rather hunt pen raised birds than no birds at all….and if the only opportunity I have to hunt lion was as CB, I feel the same, but that’s just me.

I’m not entirely convinced ethics is the right word, but I certainly agree that the size of one’s pocket book correlates closely to where you toe the line on this subject.

I’m nowhere near wealthy enough to hunt a wild lion. I also live in Virginia now where I can’t find wild quail to save my life. But I chase grouse in WV and get maybe 4 flushes a year for 30 days hunting. I also drive to SD every October so my dog can work wild pheasant, sharptail, and prairie chickens. As I said I’ll use some released birds for training but I don’t even consider them the same thing as wild birds.

CBL appear to be a bit more wild form the videos I’ve seen it still just doesn’t interest me. Not saying it should be illegal just my interests.

 

[375Fox]

The information is there if one desires to do the research, most on this forum won’t.

I couldn’t agree more on this statement.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

Stand bye for pages and pages of Blaa Blaa Blaa.

MB

It’ll be a nice break from the blaa blaa blaa in the politics thread.

 

[rookhawk]

I have not hunted African Lion, captive or otherwise. As a person who hasn't done either version, I am trying to understand why this version of captive bred animal hunt draws such disdain from many members on the site who seem otherwise relatively unbothered by other species being bred for hunting.

I know some members seem opposed to all versions of ranches/farms for hunting and only prefer free range wild animals, which I understand their position. But even with that, it seems that CBL hunts seem to draw a lot more heat. So I would assume there must be something different about the style of hunt or the practice that some members are more opposed to that I don't know about, that makes them so much worse in your eyes than Plains Game hunting on a ranch in South Africa.

Please help me to understand why CBL hunts are so much worse to you than PG preserve hunts.
Thanks

Two wrongs don't make a right.