Why avoid Hornady DG bullets and ammunition?

[Royal27]

Second response to latest posts.

I'd like to go back a couple of years to a day I care not to relive more than is needed. @Paul Edwards you weren't around AH at this time, so you may not have seen this.

As I recall it was early March in my morning, not long after show season that I first started seeing posts on Facebook that something had gone wrong, very wrong. Jaco Strauss of Kwalata Safaris had posted something on FB, I don't recall exactly what he said, but I knew something was wrong with Reinhard his partner. Kwalata had two clients in that both wanted to hunt lion. The lions were for some reason particularly aggressive and also decided to take cover in the thick bush that of course is available in March in RSA. Jacques Spamer was to be the head PH for this hunt.

As they approached one of these lions, visibility was limited and the hunting party was charged by the lion from close quarters. Reinhard was not able to get a shot off, but Jacques was. The shot was true and into the shoulder. The lion barely flinched. You can really only see the reaction when the video is played in slow motion. Damage was later determined to be minimal from this shot. The lion made it to Reinhard but fortunately got him by the shoulder instead of his head and I'm convinced to this day is why I still get to see Reinhard at the shows. Reinhard eventually fell under the weight of the lion and Jacques moved in. Jacques got the attention of the lion who decided to drop his grip on Reinhard and charge Jacques. Jacques in quick order put a shot into the lion's head which killed him. The bullet managed fortunately to penetrate into the brain.

The bullet used? Yes the DGX. The second bullet that penetrated the brain looked like the other pieces of junk displayed on this and other threads. Did it kill the lion? Well yes it did. But please don't forget the first shot which accomplished nothing. And don't forget that the bullet from the head shot came to pieces.

This is the difference that I and others are trying to get through here.

It's not simply a matter of did it kill or didn't it. It's a matter of how quickly? It's a matter of did the bullet slow a charge down if it didn't kill it immediately such that a follow up shot could end the matter.

And by the way guys, the totally deformed DGS I posted earlier. That was from a lion too. A dead one, eventually. Not a buffalo shoulder or an elephant brain. A thin skinned lion.

So if dead is all you care about and you're so close minded that you won't listen to other evidence or be willing to learn something that might save your life or the life of someone else then I can't think of a better bullet for you than the DGX.

Fire away!

 

[sheephunterab]

Bullet proof lions? Really?

 

[spike.t]

The bullet used? Yes the DGX. The second bullet that penetrated the brain looked like the other pieces of junk displayed on this and other threads. Did it kill the lion? Well yes it did. But please don't forget the first shot which accomplished nothing. And don't forget that the bullet from the head shot came to pieces.

phil i never thought about what bullet it was back then as was more concerned about reinhard and must have missed it if it was put on, but that puts this whole "whether to use these bullets or not" question into perspective, and into the total not classification........

 

[spike.t]

Phil, I think you are being a bit melodramatic but each to their own.

you had a good friend chewed by a lion and nearly killed?.....maybe wind your neck in a bit if you dont mind!

 

[sheephunterab]

Common sense and physics says if a lion barley flinches with a shoulder shot at close range with a big bore that something else went horribly wrong beside bullet performance....seriously guys...think about it! Hit them with a marshmallow at that range at 2600 fps and you'd get more than a flinch. Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of common sense as stories grow! Bullet deflection. Poor angle hit and glanced off. Sure. Square on shoulder...seriously...think about it!

 

[IdaRam]

Well, there is the video and recovered bullet evidence that can speak for itself.
I believe @gizmo also has some fairly compelling first hand evidence regarding Hornady bullet performance on a lion as well...

 

[spike.t]

Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of common sense as stories grow!

the story hasnt grown its what happened.....reinhard, jaco and jacques are good mates of mine and i havent got a clue what the fk you are on about with this comment....am off this thread as will probably be banned if i get more pissed off!

 

[Velo Dog]

I was at my taxidermist and he had a client complaining about a barnes bullet that didn't open up on a brown bear. Three of them just went straight through with small woud channel.

Hello Iwaters,

What the Taxidermist mentioned to you is why I do not use any sort of hollow point hunting bullet.

That includes the ones with a plastic doodad in the hole as well.

However that being said, I agree with others that the DGX bullet is not as tough as it could be.

The Swift A-Frame gets my vote as the most reliable yet very tough expanding bullet.

Now I will stand by to receive some knots on my head.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of common sense as stories grow!

So you've seen the video to make that statement?

 

[gizmo]

Well, there is the video and recovered bullet evidence that can speak for itself.
I believe @gizmo also has some fairly compelling first hand evidence regarding Hornady bullet performance on a lion as well...

Yes I do and DGS/DGX is garbage.

 

[gizmo]

This is a repeat of something I mentioned in a hunt report. I was hunting buffalo with a .404 Jeffery, using Hornady bullets. After firing the first shot, and trying to load a second round, the gun jammed. Turned out that the bullets in the magazine had been pushed - by recoil - back into the brass, with the result that those cartridges were shorter than they should have been, and were hitting the chamber in the wrong place. Not something you want to have happen when a subsequent shot counts.

When I returned home, I sent Hornady an email. They responded promptly, asking for a lot number. I provided it. They then told me that they checked, and that lot was fine. End of story.

Well, I hadn't hammered the bullets into the brass.

End of story for Hornady and Hank.

Hornady at this point must have a form letter they email out justifying how their crap is great and somehow after checking their lot numbers we the shooters have done something wrong. It pisses me off to no extent. You, I, and a whole shit ton of others have been, "the only ones with that problem and we've never heard of that happening".

 

[sheephunterab]

The Hornady A-max was a fantastic bullet when it was initially released, but as Hornady often does, the quality on that bullet slipped from significance over time as well.
.

There's one insurgent in Iraq that may argue that point.....if he could!

 

[Hank2211]

Hello Iwaters,

What the Taxidermist mentioned to you is why I do not use any sort of hollow point hunting bullet.

That includes the ones with a plastic doodad in the hole as well.

However that being said, I agree with others that the DGX bullet is not as tough as it could be.

The Swift A-Frame gets my vote as the most reliable yet very tough expanding bullet.

Now I will stand by to receive some knots on my head.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Velo Dog, I can't agree with you about the plastic doodad. Depends on the bullet. Having disagreed with you, I can whole-heartedly agree with you about the Swift A-Frame. I have had great success with the A-Frame on the toughest game (where I wasn't using a solid), and I wouldn't hesitate to use it again.

There are some cartridges we can't get in Canada (at least not easily) - such as the Peregrine and the North Fork. Having said that, Barnes VOR-TX, Swift A-Frame and Federal TBBC have served me very well on tough game. They get the job done, without drama. The Hornadys just haven't for me, and I wouldn't use them where I need to rely on my ammo for my safety or the safety of those around me.

 

[gizmo]

Bullet proof lions? Really?

Uh ya, it was my lion. Royal has seen the video as well as many others on here. It took 7 rounds all of which were excellent shot placement to finally kill it. Damn near got eaten because of the crappy DGX/DGS performance. The picture he showed of the solid was either the 6 or 7 shot as the last two were solids. I know because I pulled the cartridges apart to confirm the bullet type. DGX performance was even worse on my Cape Buffalo though I admittedly pulled the shot a bit. Even still I've wondered for the last two years had I been shooting a better bullet if the results would have been better despite my poor shot placement on my buff. At the end of the day I will say that the buff debacle was my fault however while I got it done on the lion it very well could have ended in someone getting hurt or worse due to poor bullet performance.

 

[Desert Dog]

There's one insurgent in Iraq that may argue that point.....if he could!

And multitudes more insurgents in Iraq that would argue that .22 caliber ball ammo gets the job done.....if they could. What are you getting at????

 

[gizmo]

Common sense and physics says if a lion barley flinches with a shoulder shot at close range with a big bore that something else went horribly wrong beside bullet performance....seriously guys...think about it! Hit them with a marshmallow at that range at 2600 fps and you'd get more than a flinch. Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of common sense as stories grow! Bullet deflection. Poor angle hit and glanced off. Sure. Square on shoulder...seriously...think about it!

common sense also dictates that is one wasn't there or has no first hand knowledge of something it's often best to remain quite on the subject.

 

[Art Lambart II]

I really don't think comparing the DGX to a Barnes, A-Frame or a Northfork is a fair comparison, IMO they are all better bullets than the DGX. What we should compare the DGX to is the Nosler Partition, the DGX preforms just like the NP, so ask yourself this question, if you show up for a Buff hunt with your 416 Rigby and 400 grain NP what PH would tell you "I'm sorry sir your NP is not adequate for this hunt". I believe the Barnes, A-Frame and the Northfork are much better bullets then the DGX or the NP. Today most DG hunters only consider the NP for leopard and lion hunts but 40 years ago they wold have used the NP for everything.

 

[Royal27]

I really don't think comparing the DGX to a Barnes, A-Frame or a Northfork is a fair comparison, IMO they are all better bullets than the DGX.

Redleg said it earlier, but its absolutely a fair comparison as they are expected to do the same job in these cases. Totally agree that there is "no comparison" and that all listed, and some others, are far superior. As long as people put DGX/DGS in the "premium" category this is the correct comparison. DGX isn't compared to NP as people generally don't include them as true "premium" anymore.

Hornady simply markets their bullet as something it isn't, and people buy the hype.

o ask yourself this question, if you show up for a Buff hunt with your 416 Rigby and 400 grain NP what PH would tell you "I'm sorry sir your NP is not adequate for this hunt

Doubt this happens much, if at all, with any bullet. That doesn't mean it shouldn't. PHs take some calculated risks because that's the business they have chosen to be in. It doesn't men I should purposely add to that risk, even in a small way.

 

[ActionBob]

Common sense and physics says if a lion barley flinches with a shoulder shot at close range with a big bore that something else went horribly wrong beside bullet performance....seriously guys...think about it! Hit them with a marshmallow at that range at 2600 fps and you'd get more than a flinch. Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of common sense as stories grow! Bullet deflection. Poor angle hit and glanced off. Sure. Square on shoulder...seriously...think about it!

I've also seen both videos, know all the men involved and would not hesitate to be backed up in any dangerous situation by Jacques or Erik. They are upstanding and professional individuals and both can very obviously shoot exceedingly well and do so under heavy pressure, intense situations. I have no doubt that Jacques saved Reinhard's life.

 

[sheephunterab]

A lot of you seem to be missing the point...I was never calling the skill or grit of anyone into question but just saying that simple physics says something happened. It could have been as simple as the bullet striking a branch. We always want to blame bullet failure when things go wrong but experience says there's usually another answer.