Why didn't Germany or Continental Europe develop big bore cartridges like the British did?

[grand veneur]

I don't know why, but an explanation would be that the French hunter was primarily a shotgun hunter so that, in contrast to Germany and the German-speaking countries where a completely different hunting tradition existed, there was never a need to develop cartridges for the civilian market. Something like that was then transferred to Africa and Asia where the few French hunters who were initially active in this countries, certainly used rifles in caliber of their colonial neighbors very early, so that again there was no need to develop new big bore cartridges.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I think the French were focused on fashion and fine furniture

 

[BeeMaa]

Google Otto Bock

You are going to need to explain this because I'm sure you are not talking about the Otto Bock who was a prosthestist and founded the company Ottobock in Germany in 1919. Otto Bock is a global leader in prosthetics, orthotics, and rehabilitation technology.

 

[grand veneur]

I think the French were focused on fashion and fine furniture

You know us wrong, we are a mix of very different ethnic groups. It is a mystery how such a nation can exist for centuries. De Gaulle has always said that a country that has more than 400 types of cheese is extremely difficult to govern.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I meant the French industries were more focused on those than firearms

 

[John Telford]

One person really- John Rigby.
Britain had a history of big bore military rifles and doubles. The thinking was very much bigger is better . The Germans being more practical developed the 8mm as a military rifle vs the English Martini Henry and.577 Snider.
Mr Rigby was the first to develop the smokeless propelled .450 in a double and this set the stage for all to follow. Also he was house friends with Paul
mauser and got first pick of any developments At Orbendorf! This effectively kept any big bore bolt actions out of the market until about 1910. Mauser stopped at the 10.75x68 as there was little sense in competing with its best customer. Some private German companies attempted the market such as Schuler who was ahead of his time but sadly not a very good marketer. It took William Jeffery to put his .500 on the map as the .500 Jeffery after a few small mods to the neck angle. After the death of Maiser and the end to the exclusive deal with Rigby the British gun trade developed into an Arms race with all and sundry coming to market with their own proprietary cartridge.
Did we really need a .404,416 and .425 WR?

 

[GuttormG]

Losing 2 wars and the country beeing completely disarmed, most Africa-safari litteratur beeing in english.

 

[grand veneur]

...
Did we really need a .404,416 and .425 WR?

And how !

...still the most practical caliber class there is for a client hunting big game.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Germans definitely did make a few big bore rifle cartridges, which unfortunately died out after the Second World War:

9.3x64mm Brenekke
10.75x68mm Mauser
11.2x72mm Schuler
12.7x70mm Schuler

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@grand veneur

During the French colonial era, these were the most popular rifle calibers used for big game hunting in French Indo China and the French colonies in Africa.

The most popular French sporting magazine rifle back in those days, used to be the ManuFrance Rival. It was chambered in either the 10.75x68mm Mauser (a German caliber) or the .405 Winchester (an American caliber).

 

[fourfive8]

Probably complex series of events drove the trend of the Brits hanging onto large bore designs longer than those of the Continent. Same thing happened comparing the British to American military arms evolution from black powder muzzleloader to black powder cartridge to smokeless cartridge, The US went from 75, 69 and 58 caliber bp muzzleloader to a completely redesigned, slimmed down 45 bp cartridge (45-70) then a couple of smokeless 30 caliber cartridges relatively quickly. The Brits hung onto large bore bp type cartridges well into smokeless era …. calling some of them “Nitro”. The Brits hung onto the large bore design of bp ballistics and traditions well into the smokeless era. Who knows all the reasons? I just view it as a “British thing”. The needlessly over-sized and somewhat impractical 577-450 MH being a good example. During this same time the 577-450 MH was distributed to Brit colonies. Similarly, the large bore bp muzzleloader firearm including the massive “bore/gauge” bp guns were sold by English companies, especially in Africa, well into the smokeless cartridge era. Additionally, so the Brits could maintain control in their colonies with more modern military cartridges and arms, unregulated sale of some modern arms for civilian use was restricted.

 

[Rosch]

Interesting question!
I guess, its a bunch of reasons for this matter!
British goverment was long in colony business and settled early in the south african cape, which was the stepdoor for all early big game hunting! And Everything needed out there, Great Britain delivered!
And the British had very ambitioned gunsmiths! A look into „cartridges of the world“ shows the abudance of british cartridges most of them obsolete today!
The old days must have been an interesting time. The british gunsmithes made not only guns, they also made the ammo for those guns! That was essentiell for especially double rifles. Everybody who ownes one knows, how important the right ammo is for those double barreled rifles! (Once soldered together, You better stick to the assoziated ammunition!)
This gun and ammo combi offered all oportunities to gun craftsman to be independent in their own creations and developments!
Another reason might have been the ego british gentlemen who were very much in hunting sport! Holland & Holland, Rigby, Jeffrey, Westley & Richards, Purdey and so many others had to offer new developments to the british wealth and high society and as a mans thing, every cartridge had to be bigger than the other one! I think, all those today still wellknown british companies supported this trend with high grade big bore rifles and doubles and made a fortune out of this run! One had to wait years to get his gun built!
If You read „Pondoro“, its surprising how unusual he ordered himself guns and ammo!
If I remember reading right, he did by letter!
And settled finally not on a 450, 470, 500, 505 or 600, no he chose the mild 450/400 NE Jeffrey as the allaround-doing-well-for-him- cartridge!
Which brings me personal to the fazit, that all those different british cartridges weren‘t nessesary actually, which the Germans did realize and therefore were done with Otto Bock, by inventing the 9,3x62 with standard and easy available shell fitting in standard Mauser k98 action with in comparison mild recoil and Softpoint bullets, finishing all a landowner in Africa could have ever been confrontaded with!
They might have kept it my way:
Keep it easy!

 

[grand veneur]

Despite everything, you have to read and judge a lot with caution. I really appreciate what Taylor wrote, but I am not sure, and I am not the only one, if everything is true because you can ask yourself how he was able to buy so many rifles since he was not a rich man and died in total poverty.

As for the 9,3x62 cartridge is concerned, it certainly played a great role, but you should not overestimated it either. Many cartridges that are marginal for big game hunting were often used in Africa in the past, but primarily as meat-getter for hunting plain game. In the German colonies, big game hunting was, as usual under German administration, very strictly regulated and therefore expensive. The normal settler could hardly afford them, but he hunted with his rifle caliber 9,3x62 or 10,75x68 above all PG and perhaps, in very rare cases, shot some problem big game on his land with it. All well-known German big game hunters and authors primarily used big bore rifles, as do their British colleagues.

By the way, one should not exploit every topic to try to demonstrate that big bores are not necessary for shooting big and dangerous game. Something like that is completely wrong and anyone who has shot more than 2 or 3 big games in their life, and that with various calibers, knows this.

 

[Northern Shooter]

So we’ve touched on why the Germans didn’t produce as many big bores due to their setbacks but what about some of the other continental countries that also had colonial interests?

Spain? Portugal? Netherlands? Belgium?

 

[Rosch]

By the way, one should not exploit every topic to try to demonstrate that big bores are not necessary for shooting big and dangerous game. Something like that is completely wrong and anyone who has shot more than 2 or 3 big games in their life, and that with various calibers, knows this.

Dear friend,
I agree with You and I hope that I didn‘t over do it with my german patriotism! So take my fazit as a sort of knowledge with a smile!
Besides, I read once that 9,3x62 was the most available ammo in all those hardwarestores out there in the african wild!

 

[DieJager]

So we’ve touched on why the Germans didn’t produce as many big bores due to their setbacks but what about some of the other continental countries that also had colonial interests?

Spain? Portugal? Netherlands? Belgium?

There is enough literature about hunting in the Dutch colonies. But almost none is translated into English. I've got quite a few. We did not have our own calibers that we used. Mostly English cartridges for dangerous game.

 

[WAB]

There is a monument to German/Togese friendship in Togoville. It seems somewhat out of place in a French speaking country, but it was a German colony, Togoland, prior to the French.

 

[Huvius]

I facetiously suggest that 20thC Germany was focused, not on killing more game animals, but on killing more human beings and being thin skinned game, didn't need much larger than the 8mm...

Seriously (?) now, the proliferation of dangerous game chamberings from England did, in fact, have much to do with the ".450 ban" in it's colonies.
What has been misunderstood is that sportsmen could still bring as many as 200 .450 caliber cartridges into British Africa for sporting purposes.
That is certainly a lot for most safaris. Theodore Roosevelt even used a 450 Holland after the "ban" was in place!
So, English gunmakers saw an opportunity to introduce alternatives to the 450 nitros and brought in the 470, 475, 476, and 500-465 in order to sell more rifles to the sporting Gentry as well as their perennial Indian customers.
In bolt rifles, Schuler certainly wrung out the most one could reasonably get from the standard length '98 Mauser with the Jumbo (500) and the 11.2X72 both of which could be placed admirably in the top end of big game rifle spectrum so the Germans actually achieved with 4-5 cartridges what the Brits did with ten or more.
Altitude Sickness's point above should't be mistaken.
National pride of industry must ahve played a role in all this.
While the Brits were managing their empire, Germany led the way in other areas - automobile racing for example, aircraft design could be another.
France has long led the World in fine living - fashion, food, wine. Italy serving the same role to an extent. Wars excepted, most Europeans had (have) pride in something and killing big game isn't it for most.

 

[Tex .416]

Germany as a country is young, compared not only to England but even the United States. I suspect this could be part of it.

….

????? The Romans identified Germania as a distinct region and fought battles with the Germans. It has been around for awhile.

 

[Red Leg]

????? The Romans identified Germania as a distinct region and fought battles with the Germans. It has been around for awhile.

Germania, as identified by Julius Caesar, has existed as geo/ethnic region for at least two millennia. However, Germany, as a nation state/empire rather than a collection of principalities. did not emerge until the 18th of January 1871. The creation of Germany as an actual nation was the crowning achievement of Otto Von Bismarck. However, I doubt that had much to do with firearms development, because Prussia and Suhl had been a primary developer and innovator for centuries.

I think this is pretty simple. Caliber development and the firearms to shoot them are a function of need and use. With the loss of its African colonies in 1918 and their new administration by the UK, development of ammunition and the rifles to use it tailored for dangerous game lost its emphasis in Germany and Austria. The subsequent focus of those developers was the military and European game animals - for which the 9.3 is a superb "heavy."

Had the outcome of the war been different, it would have been Germany who welcomed foreign hunters to Africa during the golden years of safari between the two world wars. The UK likely would have had no colony at all on the African continent. English calibers and the quaint doubles that fired them would have been a footnote to that story.