why do people not use premium bullets?

[akrifleman]

What I say re: the tips is absolutely, irrefutably true. What you say builds upon that "the tips were ONLY created for enhancing BC." Hmm, so you're saying the tips have an effect on BC? So if we break those tips, is the BC effected? ?? ??? The answer is YES. LOL The tips on the TSSX had a dual mission; better BC and facilitating expansion upon impact-especially in certain V cartridges that would simply poke an archery field point hole through an animal (been there, done that and so have many others who chimed in on earlier posts here re: the TSXs. Fine for certain Vs and definitely DG.) Newer material tips is one in the same...big business have to invent new widgets for the big sale each season! Tried those rubber tipped bullets in kids' 30-30s long ago...the bent/contorted ones also didn't fly so well and we had some (not full powder charge) ones that literally bounced off deer (doe, in the rain at 50 yds.) LOL Duds. We switched up to full power handloaded RNs after that and to quote Roger Raglin ("Those deer got acquainted with the ground!") lol My son was a dentist in your town. Are you in sales and marketing for those next great bullets??

It is refutable. They were invented by Swift bullet company for the Scirocco bullet, and it was only for aiding in BC. Everyone started to copy it, to push their own BCs.

Any bullet with a damaged tip will suffer BC, no matter the material or composition. Absorbing damage was not a design goal. Damaging a hollow point, ATip, ETip, or any tip has the same effect.

Barnes did not invent the tips, and were pleasantly surprised they aided in expansion. Some tips on some designs do, and some don't. Your comment about the TTSX is true.

I'm an engineer, I'm not associated with any marketing organization. If I were, I'd say "Yes, yes. Whatever you said is the reason we made it better!!!"

 

[Flewis]

@Flewis
I'm glad it makes sense to you. I can't see why adding a plastic tip should jack the prices so high. It's only .001 cent each plastic bit for petes sake.
Bob

You told me it was the 50year old virgins!

 

[AimSmall]

Doesn't sound like his motive was economy. Could be ignorant. But do you think he was just of the belief that the higher BC was key (assuming it was higher BC)?

I suspect he had achieved great accuracy without allowing for the toughness of a moose shoulder.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

when anyone ever proudly said to me ..."243" i just cringed and felt sorry for them. Ladies/kids-Ok. 'Found plenty of dead deer days later w/ 87 gr varmint bullets in 'em where they expired fractions of miles away (while stalking w/ my 257, 6.5 or 300s).

@C.W. Richter
That's my experience with the 243. Wrong bullet for thr game and wrong shooter.
I won't call them hunter because hunters use enough gun and bullet.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You told me it was the 50year old virgins!

@Flewis
It's the lack of 50 year old virgin's.
Less staff= slower production and increased prices.
Very time consuming putting tips in by virgin's. They're not used to putting pointy things in holes.
Bob

 

[Foxi]

because the way of looking of the simpler bullets (I don't mean rubbish of the cheapest class here) is underestimated.

As a reloader, I shoot on a lot of paper a year.

Starting with the .223 up to the .458 Win Mag.

I use the same labs on the range for practice as I do for hunting .

That is important to me.

I buy the middle class, preferring bullets that match the weight and hardness of the game I want to hunt.
I load accordingly.
If i don't lose game on good shots i am absolutely right to do so.

2.- Euro/USD for a Barnes bullet with hundreds of shots a year on paper is simply too much money for me if I am honest.

It's enough for me if I have a residual weight of 70% with a satisfactory effect.

Today that seems to be a no-go

 

[Vinootz]

something I can't fathom is how people can spend thousands of dollars on a hunt, sometimes thousands on rifles, optics, and all other kinds of gear. and in the same breath, will put a box of Remington core lokts or another budget cup and core bullet in their rifle. And what makes that worse today is that there are affordable premium bullet options now, even in factory ammo, such as the Federal Fusion which is still affordable but uses a better bonded bullet. and I can't deny that standard cup and core bullets are proven for many kinds of game such as whitetail and smaller big games. however, I also can't deny that a premium bullet of any sort will still work better on any game species larger.
I know I'm kind of preaching to the choir with this one but I rest my case.

Cup and core bullets have been working just fine for many folks, for many decades.
If you can’t fathom that, it is your issue. Quite frankly, their business is none of yours.

 

[Vinootz]

Exactly right. Understanding terminal ballistics and bullet design is critical to using the right tool for the job at hand.

I will add, that early in my safari career I took multiple loads for the same caliber in a misguided attempt to take this principle to the nth degree. I have since learned to take A-Frames for everything and a handful of solids (you never know when an unintended elephant hunt may pop up).

With all the knit picking on this topic I was wondering when someone would mention
having two different projectiles on a hunt.
There are varying factors that will come into play for terminal ballistics. All the factors can not be controlled all the time. Things like range, velocity for projectile expansion, hitting bone , not hitting bone,etc. With all the variables, best to use a good all around
one;or have two different available. The big concern aside from good clean kills with minimal meat loss should be, anti hunting activists that may one day use terminal ballistics as a tool to restrict and burden hunters. No sense giving those types a plan of attack.

 

[Rule 303]

Cup and core bullets have been working just fine for many folks, for many decades.
If you can’t fathom that, it is your issue. Quite frankly, their business is none of yours.

Many folk have been using cup and core for many years and loosing wounded game. If you can not fathom that, then that is your issue. Loosing wounded game and having this come to public knowledge is all of our business.

The above also applies to premium bullets as well.

Then again this thread is about the bullets used on a hunt that cost a small fortune for most of us, so as others have said, why not try and stack as much in your favour as possible?

I was typing this as you were typing your last post which I agree with. On my African hunts I have rounds with 2 types of bullets. Soft nose and the Hydros. I have used the Hydros on Elephant and Buffalo.

 

[Vinootz]

because the way of looking of the simpler bullets (I don't mean rubbish of the cheapest class here) is underestimated.

As a reloader, I shoot on a lot of paper a year.

Starting with the .223 up to the .458 Win Mag.

I use the same labs on the range for practice as I do for hunting .

That is important to me.

I buy the middle class, preferring bullets that match the weight and hardness of the game I want to hunt.
I load accordingly.
If i don't lose game on good shots i am absolutely right to do so.

2.- Euro/USD for a Barnes bullet with hundreds of shots a year on paper is simply too much money for me if I am honest.

It's enough for me if I have a residual weight of 70% with a satisfactory effect.

Today that seems to be a no-go

I know what you mean. I target shoot a lot more than I hunt. I reload with bullets I plan to use on hunts and use the same for shooting practice. Been reloading with Woodleigh. Getting a bit expensive. The money we spend on our tools and toys
can get up there. I might try another approach for hitting paper.

 

[Rule 303]

I know what you mean. I target shoot a lot more than I hunt. I reload with bullets I plan to use on hunts and use the same for shooting practice. Been reloading with Woodleigh. Getting a bit expensive. The money we spend on our tools and toys
can get up there. I might try another approach for hitting paper.

I use Woodleigh's for hunting but only use a few for practice before the hunt. The rest of the time I use the cheaper cup and core. I am lucky with most of my rifles as the cheaper ones shoot to the same point of impact or fairly close to it.

 

[Vinootz]

Many folk have been using cup and core for many years and loosing wounded game. If you can not fathom that, then that is your issue. Loosing wounded game and having this come to public knowledge is all of our business.

The above also applies to premium bullets as well.

Then again this thread is about the bullets used on a hunt that cost a small fortune for most of us, so as others have said, why not try and stack as much in your favour as possible?

I was typing this as you were typing your last post which I agree with. On my African hunts I have rounds with 2 types of bullets. Soft nose and the Hydros. I have used the Hydros on Elephant and Buffalo.

Hey, whatever floats one’s boat or to each his own. Generally, I’ve rarely concerned myself with what others elect to do. If their actions aren’t affecting me in a negative way,I mind my own affairs and make my own decisions. And by the way , many people are still just wounding game. All the knit picking ain’t solving s$&t. Lol

 

[grand veneur]

Due to the title of the topic, it would be better for everyone to give their reasons why they prefer to use this or that bullet without judging the other user, especially not to accuse him of ignorance or stupidity. Based on the many posts, it is clear why some people prefer to use one bullet or the other, but unfortunately this all takes place in an atmosphere of confrontation.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Due to the title of the topic, it would be better for everyone to give their reasons why they prefer to use this or that bullet without judging the other user, especially not to accuse him of ignorance or stupidity. Based on the many posts, it is clear why some people prefer to use one bullet or the other, but unfortunately this all takes place in an atmosphere of confrontation.

But how else can we display our superiority complex with out insulting the other guy’s choice of projectiles?

 

[Woodcarver]

I've been using Remington CoreLokt handloaded bullets for decades, they work, and before the world went stupid, inexpensive. Most of my rifles like them; those that don't, get fed something else. The Rem 405gr SP I shot my moose with a few years ago, performed perfectly from my Marlin 45-70, running just over 1700fps. One of those traversed through the left hip and stopped in the ball of the right shoulder ball with the other two, penetrating about 4'+ of moose. Those 3 are the only CoreLokts I've ever recovered.
That said, I am not averse to using other pills. The 9.3x74R gets Norma Oryx and Nosler Partitions as that is what it likes. The 9.3x62 seems to like the 270gr Prvi SPs, and I would have no issue shooting an elk with one. It also likes the Woodleigh 286gr PP SN, which is what I'll have in it this season.
The 458 Lott has only had a problem with one of my cast bullets. Everything else I've run through it shoots well. If it ever gets to Africa, it will have A-Frames and Hornady DGS bullets loaded. But hunting elk in Colorado, it will probably have a Remington or Hornady bullet loaded.
CZs in 375H&H seem to be very accepting and easy to load; relatively cheap to top end bullets have all shot well at almost any velocity I've tried so far. At ~2450fps, I have no qualms using a Speer 300gr SP on an elk. But might use an Oryx, or a Partition since I have them.
As these larger bores are relatively new for me, other than the 45-70, I haven't had an opportunity to see what effect they have on game. But in all the smaller calibers I've been using for decades (.308 and down), I have not seen a need to buy expensive bullets. With few exceptions, I've not had to spend much time trailing anything either. Understanding bigger, thicker thin skinned, and the DG aspect of others, there will be tougher bullets loaded for them. But I'd have no doubts a CoreLokt or Speer would perform just fine on most PG as they do on elk and muleys here.

 

[Flewis]

That's a LOT of titanium for the tips of those rounds. That'll be an extra $20/box. LOL

All joking aside, round nose bullets would work for 98 percent of my PA deer hunting and cup and core for all of it.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

All joking aside, round nose bullets would work for 98 percent of my PA deer hunting and cup and core for all of it.

@Flewis
I decided to run an accuracy test on my Whelen using premium like woodliegh and nosler accubonds along with standard cup and core.
Bullet weight ranged from 200gn to 310gn.
The 310gn hit close to the bull as I knew it would the others all printed into around 2 inches around 2.5 to 3 inches high.
Interesting test 10 shot 2 inches. Stared with a cold barrel and when I finished the barrel was that hot you couldn't touch it
Bob
Loads used

Results

I love it when you can pick up your rifle, match bullet to game and go hunting without the need to resight. Accurate guns are fun.

 

[Rule 303]

Hey, whatever floats one’s boat or to each his own. Generally, I’ve rarely concerned myself with what others elect to do. If their actions aren’t affecting me in a negative way,I mind my own affairs and make my own decisions. And by the way , many people are still just wounding game. All the knit picking ain’t solving s$&t. Lol

Though I made it clear that the wounding was still happening with premium bullets I did fail to mention wounding was still happening, that was an oversight on my part. I was just having a go at what appeared to be a holier than though post.
I do happen to agree with most of what you have said.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Though I made it clear that the wounding was still happening with premium bullets I did fail to mention wounding was still happening, that was an oversight on my part. I was just having a go at what appeared to be a holier than though post.
I do happen to agree with most of what you have said.

@Rule 303
That's what I hate about the 243. But I will give it one thing.
It's the best wounding caliber I have come across. Other calibers like 25 and up actually kill shit.
Bob

 

[Tam Dl]

Due to the title of the topic, it would be better for everyone to give their reasons why they prefer to use this or that bullet without judging the other user, especially not to accuse him of ignorance or stupidity. Based on the many posts, it is clear why some people prefer to use one bullet or the other, but unfortunately this all takes place in an atmosphere of confrontation.

I hadn't noticed that. The negatives seemed pointed outward. I have caught most of the pages, and hadn't noticed confrontation. Basically, the OP started out with a scenario where there was an expensive hunt and cheap/possibly defitient bullets, in a situation where the hunter was bringing the ammo. Larger game is mentioned. Really, this is a controversial topic, people's noses are out of joint. There are many situations were all kinds of stuff, even including cast is just fine.

Moving on... One thing is that target shooting, in particular the long range stuff, is the majority activity, compared to hunting, in the US. Sometimes we get a little pushed, or nudged as the saying goes. I don't have a cell phone. People were kinda "WHY NOT" when it came to COVID "issues". And one looses a lot of friends if the only thing people do is text. Well... if the majority of shooters are making large amounts of expensive ammo with costly bullets, the time may well come when the lessor end of the market falls into disrepute for hunting. And the suppliers have every reason to nudge the market into more expensive products.