Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

[Philip Glass]

I would not take a lever gun on a DG hunt. I took a brand new .45/70 on a very cold mountain lion hunt and it froze and jammed badly on me. I love lever guns but they are not for me in all situations.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

"Not for me"... and that's the key. Choice. For some of us they are the right choice. Not a willy-nilly choice, but I'd argue that can be true of any firearm. And I don't know that I'd use them for every type of dangerous game for myself, but others have and succeeded, and my .45-70 has worked well twice on buffalo. Bow and arrow, muzzleloader, handgun, lever... bolt action: properly prepare and accept/work within whatever limitations come with your choice... and have fun/go get'em.

I have not seen anything in my couple of trips to Africa to think it'd ever be cold enough to affect the function of a lever action. And issues can happen with all action types; my lever guns have functioned just fine in the cold up here. Living where I do they are still pretty much all I ever use. It was -20 on the hunt below.

 

[mgstucson]

In Rifle Magazine in March-April 2005, an article was written about an Alaskan professional hunter (guide) Ed Stevenson. He has over 44 years of "continual" experince guiding for the big bears in Alaska. Not only that, but he lives in one of his hunting camps year round. He NEVER leaves the house without a rifle in his hand because big (10 foot, 1000+ pounds) bears are common in the area. He was once, early in his professional career, attacked at short range by a 10 foot bear after his hunter client had just killed another 10 foot bear. Before the bear got to him, he shot the bear ONCE with his (then) trusted 375 H&H. The muzzle flash of his rifle drew the bear's rage to himself and away from his client. The bear still hit Stevenson, drove him underwater at the edge of the river while biting him and jumping on him with all 4 feet. The client hunter emptied his 375 Weatherby Mag into the bear while it was mauling Stevenson, eventually ending the attack (and the bear). After recovering, Stevenson went right back to work, but started looking for a different rifle/caliber combination for protecting himself and his clients. He eventually settled on a modern leverguns, Browning 1886 in .45 caliber or Browning 1895 (Winchester 1895 clone without tang safety) lever action .411 caliber (411 hawk).

The writer closed the article with these statements:

On loads Stevenson carries in his Browning 1895, .411, levergun:

"Ed reports that once cases have been fireformed and the shoulder established, he has experienced no reliability issues or misfires. Ed’s handloads drive a 360-grain North Fork bullet around 2,200 to 2,350 fps and the 350-grain Barnes X-Bullets to about the same velocity. In discussing various cartridges, Ed is particularly thrilled with the .411 and probably uses it more than any other, at least on big bears, and has yet to experience a failure."

On Stevenson's choice of lever actions:

"In looking over the leverguns and cartridges Ed uses daily, one may wonder if he is stuck in tradition. Be certain that he is not. His leverguns get used considerably and are constantly exposed to the elements, giving a rifle that is only a few years old the appearance of being nearly a century old. Nonetheless, they have proven worthy, giving reliable service with virtually no failures."

"Regardless of whether we agree with Ed’s choices of cartridges or not, the fact remains they have been chosen based on 44 years of continual experience in the Alaskan bush, which is hard to argue with."

I have just purchased a NOS Browing 1895 in 30-06, and it will soon be on its way to be rebored to 400 Whelen (G&H/Petrov). I plan to take it to Africa for DG. I will use a 400gr .411 bullet at 2150- 2200fps. This is about 100-150 fps faster than the highly praised 450/400 NE double rifle round built its reputation on.

 

[TOBY458]

In Rifle Magazine in March-April 2005, an article was written about an Alaskan professional hunter (guide) Ed Stevenson. He has over 44 years of "continual" experince guiding for the big bears in Alaska. Not only that, but he lives in one of his hunting camps year round. He NEVER leaves the house without a rifle in his hand because big (10 foot, 1000+ pounds) bears are common in the area. He was once, early in his professional career, attacked at short range by a 10 foot bear after his hunter client had just killed another 10 foot bear. Before the bear got to him, he shot the bear ONCE with his (then) trusted 375 H&H. The muzzle flash of his rifle drew the bear's rage to himself and away from his client. The bear still hit Stevenson, drove him underwater at the edge of the river while biting him and jumping on him with all 4 feet. The client hunter emptied his 375 Weatherby Mag into the bear while it was mauling Stevenson, eventually ending the attack (and the bear). After recovering, Stevenson went right back to work, but started looking for a different rifle/caliber combination for protecting himself and his clients. He eventually settled on a modern leverguns, Browning 1886 in .45 caliber or Browning 1895 (Winchester 1895 clone without tang safety) lever action .411 Hawk (400 Whelen).

The writer closed the article with these statements:

On loads Stevenson carries in his Browning 1895, .411, levergun:

"Ed reports that once cases have been fireformed and the shoulder established, he has experienced no reliability issues or misfires. Ed’s handloads drive a 360-grain North Fork bullet around 2,200 to 2,350 fps and the 350-grain Barnes X-Bullets to about the same velocity. In discussing various cartridges, Ed is particularly thrilled with the .411 and probably uses it more than any other, at least on big bears, and has yet to experience a failure."

On Stevenson's choice of lever actions:

"In looking over the leverguns and cartridges Ed uses daily, one may wonder if he is stuck in tradition. Be certain that he is not. His leverguns get used considerably and are constantly exposed to the elements, giving a rifle that is only a few years old the appearance of being nearly a century old. Nonetheless, they have proven worthy, giving reliable service with virtually no failures."

"Regardless of whether we agree with Ed’s choices of cartridges or not, the fact remains they have been chosen based on 44 years of continual experience in the Alaskan bush, which is hard to argue with."

I have just purchased a NOS Browing 1895 in 30-06, and it will soon be on its way to be rebored to 400 Whelen (G&H/Petrov). I plan to take it to Africa for DG. I will use a 400gr .411 bullet at 2150- 2200fps. This is about 100-150 fps faster than the highly praised 450/400 NE double rifle round built its reputation on.

I was fortunate enough to hunt with Ed twice. In both hunts he used a 45/70. The first hunt he used a Winchester 86, and the second hunt he carried a Marlin 1895.
Ed was a great man. I enjoyed our hunts together immensely. He lived most of his life alone in the bush. And rarely came to town, except to buy supplies and pick up hunters. He was a true Alaska sourdough.
We spoke from time to time after my last hunt there in 2006. I heard of his passing a couple years ago, and I wish I had hunted with him again before he passed.

 

[DrBob]

I recall Doug Turnbull made a big bore lever action that he successfully took a Cape Buffalo with.

https://gundigest.com/gun-reviews/rifles-reviews/gun-review-475-turnbull-rifle

A 45/70 with 405 grain Sledgehammer solids was used to kill a Cape. ..and wound the one behind it. Excellent penetration. It was found that a heavy 45 penetrates best at around 1500 fps. Note... penetrates.... kills need placement and never never are the words "stopping power" to be seen.

 

[HankBuck]

In Rifle Magazine in March-April 2005, an article was written about an Alaskan professional hunter (guide) Ed Stevenson. He has over 44 years of "continual" experince guiding for the big bears in Alaska. Not only that, but he lives in one of his hunting camps year round. He NEVER leaves the house without a rifle in his hand because big (10 foot, 1000+ pounds) bears are common in the area. He was once, early in his professional career, attacked at short range by a 10 foot bear after his hunter client had just killed another 10 foot bear. Before the bear got to him, he shot the bear ONCE with his (then) trusted 375 H&H. The muzzle flash of his rifle drew the bear's rage to himself and away from his client. The bear still hit Stevenson, drove him underwater at the edge of the river while biting him and jumping on him with all 4 feet. The client hunter emptied his 375 Weatherby Mag into the bear while it was mauling Stevenson, eventually ending the attack (and the bear). After recovering, Stevenson went right back to work, but started looking for a different rifle/caliber combination for protecting himself and his clients. He eventually settled on a modern leverguns, Browning 1886 in .45 caliber or Browning 1895 (Winchester 1895 clone without tang safety) lever action .411 caliber (411 hawk).

The writer closed the article with these statements:

On loads Stevenson carries in his Browning 1895, .411, levergun:

"Ed reports that once cases have been fireformed and the shoulder established, he has experienced no reliability issues or misfires. Ed’s handloads drive a 360-grain North Fork bullet around 2,200 to 2,350 fps and the 350-grain Barnes X-Bullets to about the same velocity. In discussing various cartridges, Ed is particularly thrilled with the .411 and probably uses it more than any other, at least on big bears, and has yet to experience a failure."

On Stevenson's choice of lever actions:

"In looking over the leverguns and cartridges Ed uses daily, one may wonder if he is stuck in tradition. Be certain that he is not. His leverguns get used considerably and are constantly exposed to the elements, giving a rifle that is only a few years old the appearance of being nearly a century old. Nonetheless, they have proven worthy, giving reliable service with virtually no failures."

"Regardless of whether we agree with Ed’s choices of cartridges or not, the fact remains they have been chosen based on 44 years of continual experience in the Alaskan bush, which is hard to argue with."

I have just purchased a NOS Browing 1895 in 30-06, and it will soon be on its way to be rebored to 400 Whelen (G&H/Petrov). I plan to take it to Africa for DG. I will use a 400gr .411 bullet at 2150- 2200fps. This is about 100-150 fps faster than the highly praised 450/400 NE double rifle round built its reputation on.

I think that the Marlin 1895 (either Stainless or regular) fits the bill - in .45-70 or .450 Marlin. The .45-70 has a much wider selection of manufacture bullets and will full power loads from Buffalo Bore - equal or greater power....More importantly, both my PH in Africa and Guide in Alaska felt that gun was good for Buffalo/Lion or Grizzly and said they guided clients that used them successfully. My PH had an assistant that always carried the Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in .450 Marlin (no idea where he found ammo for that in Tanzania??).

 

[uplander01]

I knew Ed Stevenson as well, he was a great man. I learned a lot about life in the 5 weeks I spent with him, thinking it was 2005ish, can’t remember. At that time if I remember correctly I thought he was carrying a 95 in 375 scovill. I remember handling a 71 in 450 Alaskan that he had. There is no doubt that chambering would work in Africa. I personally am a dork for tradition and nostalgia, so it’s all Mauser and doubles in Africa for me——my brother is the exact opposite. If he had dies brass and bullets for and 86 in 475 turnbull that’s all he’d use for the rest of his life. I’d go out on a limb and say that a modern loading for a 45-70 with square nose 400 super hard cast solids would kill the shit out of African game.

 

[Ridge Runner]

If you haven't seen it, there is an interesting YouTube video from @Levergun50, 70 cal lever action.

 

[xausa]

Let me put the question another way: Why has there never been a successful lever action shotgun?

There has been a lever action shotgun, the Model 1881, designed by John Browning at Winchester's request, but only in 10 gauge, so as not to compete with Winchester's successful slide action shotgun, also designed by Browninig.

In any event, it was not a success. The answer accepted by most experts is that the lever action requires the shooter to move the actuating mechanism, the lever, against the force of recoil, where the slide action moves with the force of recoil.

The slide action shotgun was a winner when the lever action shotgun was introduced and still is today. It is as fast as a semi-automatic shotgun in the hands of an experienced shooter, and for years was the type of shotgun seen on skeet and trap fields, where a rapid second shot in "doubles" is an advantage. It has been replaced, at least in International competition. by the over and under double barrel shotgun, analogous to the double rifle

Other lever action shotguns have appeared on the market, evidently for use in "Western" shooting competition. I have never seen one in the hunting field.

Perhaps the question should be, "Why has there never been a successful slide action Dangerous Game rifle?"

 

[fourfive8]

The better question about both slide action and lever action rifles for large caliber, DG use would be, "Explain in detail how slide actions and lever actions in large caliber DG rifles would be superior and more reliable than CRF bolt action rifles in same/similar calibers?"

 

[Brian]

The 45-70 loaded hot and the 50-110 Win for cape buffalo. Use the best bullets. I use Cutting Edge Raptors and Solids. (There are other great bullets too.)
There is a lot of daylight between the "best" bullets and at the "average" bullets for cape buffalo in my opinion. In the last few years there have been significant changes/advancements in bullet design and construction.

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

I don't think anyone has asserted that a lever rifle is or would be superior or more reliable than a CRF bolt rifle anywhere in this thread unless I missed it. What is being said however is that there seems to be some misguided assertation that they are inherently unreliable and far inferior to bolts and doubles which I believe gets it's start with opinions and preferences being taken as fact. Tell that to the owners of 100+ year old Winchesters that still shoot and function flawlessly. I also think a lot of folks who don't see a modern lever rifle as a strong platform have never laid hands on or understand the design characteristics of a Winchester 1886 or 71. It's a heavily built and designed rifle meant to fire heavy rounds. Even more so today with modern production made out of stronger materials.

I do however see two categories where a lever rifle CAN have an advantage over a bolt rifle... Capacity, and quickness of follow up shots. Notice I said "can" not "does".

Lever rifles are taking DG pretty regularly these days. Doug Turnbull probably being the most prominent but I see plenty of other examples, including folks right here on this forum.

At the end of the day, run what you like.

And the Winchester lever action shotgun was the model of 1887.

Interesting side note on the 1887, Leverguns50 has recently done a couple videos on a modern reproduction model 1887 converted to a 70cal rifle and fires the 70-150WCF which was a prototype Winchester did some limited experimentation with in about 1889 or thereabouts. Pretty interesting.

 

[mgstucson]

To me, the main reason to use a lever action for dangerous game is because you can fire it faster. You can probably fire a lever action as fast as a double rifle with the same cartridge, because you can fire either one as fast as you can roll back down out of recoil, but with the lever action you have at least 4 rounds onboard. However, when recoil gets above a certain level, you can fire a bolt action just as fast because you have time to work the bolt while still in lengthy recoil from a heavy round. So I will use a bolt action for heavy recoiling rounds because there is no advantage using a lever action other than nostalgia. That is why I chose the 400 Whelen for my dangerous game lever action, 400gr, 2150 fps (2200 if you push it) and well over 4000ft/lbs of energy, all with moderate recoil. This combination has proven itself for decades in Africa in the 450/400, as long as you use correct bullets and have correct shot placement. If you don't have those things, a 700 NE isn't going to do the job. I can fire a lever action in 400 Whelen 2 for 1 over my 458 Lott or even my 458 WM in a bolt action, and 3 for 2 (if not 2 for 1) over my bolt action 375 H&H. Any way you look at it, twice as many rounds on target, or even twice as many chances to put rounds on target, and more likelihood of hitting the target due to moderate recoil, makes Ed Stevenson's choices of lever actions over other types look smarter all the time. He lived to be 90 and worked into his seventies in one of the most physically demanding and dangerous professions on earth, hunting Alaska's big bears. He was even attacked by a grizzly one last time in his 80's while walking his dogs. The bear came out of nowhere chasing one of his dogs, knocked Ed down, but then turned on the dogs which were attacking the bear from behind. This gave Ed the chance to lift the 16.5" Marlin 1895 Guide Gun into position and kill the bear with a Texas heart shot through the rump with a 45-70 round. Ed was a stout of a man, and smarter than the average bear, average hunter, and average guide, in many domains, on several occasions, across many decades.

 

[Rule 303]

@Major Bonkers and @HookMeUpII definitely aren’t kidding.
Remington Model 700 extractors are notorious for failing in the hot, dusty conditions of Africa. Especially in any of the larger calibers.

I'd like to know why and where the info comes from because the heat and dust in Aust is just as bad or worse than Africa and they don't fail here in those conditions. The bolts of most rifles start to bind or become stiff after a few days if you do not clean the actions.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I'd like to know why and where the info comes from because the heat and dust in Aust is just as bad or worse than Africa and they don't fail here in those conditions. The bolts of most rifles start to bind or become stiff after a few days if you do not clean the actions.

It happened to me in 1979. Caliber was .375 Holland & Holland Magnum Magnum.

It happened to 4 other people whom I know. I can get a screenshots of 3 of their accounts if you need further verification (the fourth unfortunately passed away).

 

[Henry McCann]

I know this thread is over a year old, but it was full of information and a great read.

 

[Rule 303]

It happened to me in 1979. Caliber was .375 Holland & Holland Magnum Magnum.

It happened to 4 other people whom I know. I can get a screenshots of 3 of their accounts if you need further verification (the fourth unfortunately passed away).

I missed this reply. So why did they fail. Like I said same or worse conditions here. That is did the conditions make the extractor fail or was it for some other reason.

 

[50Gunner]

Lever guns and Dangerous game, Hmmmm, the closest i could come is my 28" barreled first gen Browning '86 with non rebounding hammer action built by Turnbull, it's chambered for the 50-110 WCF cartridge, i would load it with 500gr Woodleigh flat nose Weldcores at 2150 fps, followed by 400gr BBW #13 lever solids at what ever velocity was needed to get them landing in the group with the big Woodleighs at 100 yards, the rifle will hold 10 rounds all up, i would use RL-15 powder for these smokeless Safari loads.

Right now i load it with .512" 530gr flat nosed grease groove bullets i cast myself with 16/1 alloy, they leave at 1376 fps over 110gr Swiss 1F black powder compressed with a hand punched playing card wad over the powder, the rifle has a Smith ladder rear barrel sight and all copper penny front sight, hits to 400 yards are cake once you correlate and mark your rear sight ladder for the needed ups.

It's a great rifle and cartridge combination, when i first got it, i drove .512" 525gr hard cast gas checked lead flat nosed bullets from 22 BHN alloy to 2150 fps with RL-15, no leading and they shot great, that crescent steel butt really BOOTS when so loaded.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I missed this reply. So why did they fail. Like I said same or worse conditions here. That is did the conditions make the extractor fail or was it for some other reason.

The extractor of the Remington Model 700 is far too flimsy for high pressure Magnum length cartridges such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. Humid, dusty conditions are accelerating factors. That's why there's an entire aftermarket industry dedicated to retrofitting them with M16 extractors or Sako extractors.

P.S: Since my original comment, two more Remington Model 700s of my associates have failed in 2024. One in .416 Remington Magnum and one in 7mm Remington Magnum. The one in .416 Remington Magnum failed during a Cape buffalo hunt and the Cape buffalo succeeded in knocking the hunter to the ground before requiring several more follow up shots (from other members of the hunting party) before he finally succumbed to his wounds. The incident got captured on video. The one in 7mm Remington Magnum belonged to a guide in Australia.

I can get you both the video and the photographs of the broken extractors if you like.

 

[Rule 303]

The extractor of the Remington Model 700 is far too flimsy for high pressure Magnum length cartridges such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. Humid, dusty conditions are accelerating factors. That's why there's an entire aftermarket industry dedicated to retrofitting them with M16 extractors or Sako extractors.

P.S: Since my original comment, two more Remington Model 700s of my associates have failed in 2024. One in .416 Remington Magnum and one in 7mm Remington Magnum. The one in .416 Remington Magnum failed during a Cape buffalo hunt and the Cape buffalo succeeded in knocking the hunter to the ground before requiring several more follow up shots (from other members of the hunting party) before he finally succumbed to his wounds. The incident got captured on video. The one in 7mm Remington Magnum belonged to a guide in Australia.

I can get you both the video and the photographs of the broken extractors if you like.

I don't doubt the extractors failed but I dispute the conditions were part of it as same or worse here and no failures due to the conditions. Most likely the person has hot loaded the ammo or the factory ammo couldn't handle any heat. Result a stuck case, a Sako extractor would probably jump the extractor grove rim, same result. With Rem extractors it also depends on when they were made as Rem went through a few years where quality control did not seem to exist and if the latter ones you could carry a spare and just put it in yourself. I still wonder why Rem stayed with such a small extractor when going to larger diameter cases.

Re Sako extractors, the only reason they don't break is they are thicker than the Rem's but have the same griping area and will jump over a rim if extraction is tight. The Sako's or any extractor that is a rotating extractor will eventually wear through. Have read of Sako extractors doing this, very high volume usage I would expect. The M16 design is a far better extractor than the Sako IMHO.