Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

[Certus]

The people who knock the levers are those who never use em.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

The people who knock the levers are those who never use em.

Or those who have used them and moved on to.more effective weapons.

 

[Certus]

Or those who have used them and moved on to.more effective weapons.

Those knocking them in this thread fall firmly in the “haven’t given them a go” category.
People basing info on outdated ballistics also. If we did that then the Brit cartridges would seem woefully inadequate - especially if we based it on the velocity they actually achieved vs advertised velocity.

 

[Rule 303]

Or a 45-70..lever action.....unless you can show me 1 dg ph who uses one for follow up on wounded cape buffalo......

What I was saying is the last thing you would want in your hands in that situation is your dick.

As I said before plenty of Water Buff have been dropped with the 45-70 in a lever action, so it is not shit. By saying this you are showing your ignorance. This is understandable as you do not know what happened he in Australia. Now you do.

Yes those people in the main have moved onto more suitable firearms and calibres, like the 303 and 308, these too have taken many buff by mainly from professionals on horse back, vehicles and choppers. Most but not all, on foot would use 375 or bigger.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Or those who have used them and moved on to.more effective weapons.

Or.... Some of us have successfully used "more effective weapons" and realized our enjoyment is greater with lever actions (handguns, bows, black powder), and that with diligence we are still highly effective hunters, even with purported "less effective" weapons. YMMV Mine sure as heck does.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Those knocking them in this thread fall firmly in the “haven’t given them a go” category.
People basing info on outdated ballistics also. If we did that then the Brit cartridges would seem woefully inadequate - especially if we based it on the velocity they actually achieved vs advertised velocity.

Oh please. Do you think that everyone that uses bolt action rifles didn't start with levers? I did, and so did most of he guys I grew up hunting with. We all graduated to bolt actions. Lever actions do not commonly come in calibers that are suitable for the open country of the Western states. Only those who refuse to let go of the past will see any lever gun as adequate for big dangerous game.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Oh please. Do you think that everyone that uses bolt action rifles didn't start with levers? I did, and so did most of he guys I grew up hunting with. We all graduated to bolt actions. Lever actions do not commonly come in calibers that are suitable for the open country of the Western states. Only those who refuse to let go of the past will see any lever gun as adequate for big dangerous game.

You greatly over-generalize sir. I started with bolt actions, and had good success with them. For the past 16 years I have used nothing but lever actions because I enjoy hunting with them more than I do other types of actions - and I have a high rate of success. I have 2 Cape buffalo thus far and, God willing, I will hunt other DG species with lever actions in the future. I have had long correspondences with several sponsors of this site about hunting different species of DG and I have yet to have a single one tell me it would be a bad idea.

If you don't like the idea of lever actions, or you do not feel they are adequate for how you hunt, I respect that. But don't paint those of us who don't agree with you with that brush.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

You greatly over-generalize sir. I started with bolt actions, and had good success with them. For the past 16 years I have used nothing but lever actions because I enjoy hunting with them more than I do other types of actions - and I have a high rate of success. I have 2 Cape buffalo thus far and, God willing, I will hunt other DG species with lever actions in the future. I have had long correspondences with several sponsors of this site about hunting different species of DG and I have yet to have a single one tell me it would be a bad idea.

If you don't like the idea of lever actions, or you do not feel they are adequate for how you hunt, I respect that. But don't paint those of us who don't agree with you with that brush.

I was responding to the poster that said those that those that didn't care for lever actions had not "given them a go." I have taken several mule deer bucks and a wild boar with a muzzle loader. I like haunting with them but I do not want to compete with other hunters using modern rifles during a modern firearm season.

On my first safari I used a .458 Win Mag to stop a buffalo charging my PH at about 10 feet. His rifle had a function problem. I might have been able to do it with a .45-70, but I and the PH were glad that I didn't have to try.

If you prefer using lever actions, knock yourself out, but don't suggest that those that don't are somehow less able than those who do.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Roger that Doug. I must have missed a post.

I fully acknowledge that someone proficient with a bolt action has situations where they probably do have a leg up on me. But in no way, shape, or form do I feel handicapped or lacking.

Have a terrific weekend sir.

 

[Certus]

Oh please. Do you think that everyone that uses bolt action rifles didn't start with levers? I did, and so did most of he guys I grew up hunting with. We all graduated to bolt actions. Lever actions do not commonly come in calibers that are suitable for the open country of the Western states. Only those who refuse to let go of the past will see any lever gun as adequate for big dangerous game.

And I know no one who started in a lever gun. All bolts.

 

[Certus]

I was responding to the poster that said those that those that didn't care for lever actions had not "given them a go." I have taken several mule deer bucks and a wild boar with a muzzle loader. I like haunting with them but I do not want to compete with other hunters using modern rifles during a modern firearm season.

On my first safari I used a .458 Win Mag to stop a buffalo charging my PH at about 10 feet. His rifle had a function problem. I might have been able to do it with a .45-70, but I and the PH were glad that I didn't have to try.

If you prefer using lever actions, knock yourself out, but don't suggest that those that don't are somehow less able than those who do.

His rifle had a malfunction? What was it? Bolt? All actions can fail

 

[Certus]

I was responding to the poster that said those that those that didn't care for lever actions had not "given them a go." I have taken several mule deer bucks and a wild boar with a muzzle loader. I like haunting with them but I do not want to compete with other hunters using modern rifles during a modern firearm season.

On my first safari I used a .458 Win Mag to stop a buffalo charging my PH at about 10 feet. His rifle had a function problem. I might have been able to do it with a .45-70, but I and the PH were glad that I didn't have to try.

If you prefer using lever actions, knock yourself out, but don't suggest that those that don't are somehow less able than those who do.

I never said they were less able to do things than if they had a lever. Where the heck did that come from?

 

[HankBuck]

Wishfull thinking.....I would as a client not hunt with a ph who thinks a 45-70 is a stopping cartridge....
"Over thinking" on buffalo.....fu....me.....the last thing I want in my hands is a 45-70 lever action when the shit hits the fan on a cape buffalo hunt......

@IvW - to be clear, my PH in TZ was a “fan” of the .45-70 and had seen “many buffalo taken with it” but never said it was the Best buffalo round and doubt he thought it superior to his .416 Rem or my .470NE.
Strong definitive statements like You would “Not hunt with a PH who thinks a .45-70 is a stopping cartridge” (a .375 H&H might Not be considered a ‘stopping cartridge’ either for Buffalo)… a bit dramatic but I get your point - You disagree and have your reasons but I’m guessing no direct negative experience or observations of a .45-70 used on Buffalo (and Neither do I)..but my PH had that experience & observations and I weigh that heavily —- and there’s a chance he might Not want to hunt with you either…(or Me again after I wounded a Buffalo with my Plenty-of-stopping-power .470NE !).
I assume you are familiar with the .45-70 loaded to full power (Not that ‘Cowboy Action’ stuff) - did you have a negative experience stopping a buffalo charge with a .45-70? Both 350gr/2150 fps & 405 gr/2000fps = 3550 ft lbs …or the “shoulder dislocating/teeth shattering” 430 gr/2200 fps 4620 ft lbs. These are sold by Buffalo Bore. I’ve used the 350 gr and 405 gr and the recoil is Unpleasant but bullet performance excellent on the two Black bear I killed at 50 & 120 yrds. The 120 yrd 312 lb bear was a frontal chest shot and the 350 gr bullet exited rear hip, broke bone and kept going. I know a Bear is Not a buffalo and he was Not charging but nearly 4 feet of penetration thru some bone seemed damn good to Me and the large frontal mass of a .45 caliber delivers substantial damage.
Anyway, when I hit the “Lottery” I will Gift you a .45-70 and a few cases of Buffalo Bore Ammo (and a gift card to the Dentist & ortho Doctor of your choice)…you might change your mind

 

[HankBuck]

Or those who have used them and moved on to.more effective weapons.

@Doug Hamilton - like a Browning .50 cal machine gun? Don’t you think “effective” is hitting your target where you intended with a well constructed bullet? Also, that the 1st shot is almost always the most important one. I can’t knock a rifle design that has worked so effectively for 150 years especially since the animals are still exactly the same….only our attitudes have changed. A Spear to a Bow = improvement, Bow to a Rifle = improvement, Rifle to Rifle = incremental progress.

 

[HankBuck]

If one wanted to seriously take the 45-70 on a dangerous game hunt from Buffalo, a few things should happen.
1. Modification for the 45-70 to operate at longer OAL, with the goal being 2.73". Along with proper barrel threading to reinforce this modification. It is feasible to achieve 2100-2150 fps with a 400 gr bullet with this setup, which would match the 404 Jeffery and the 450-400 NE.
2. Proper bullet choice and placement must be paramount. Proper solids and expanding bullets must be chosen, I personally prefer cutting edge and Alaska Bullet Works (when he was still in business).
3. The shooter must understand the limitations of his chosen tool, which is what all guns are, tools. This will be the biggest deciding factor on how well this individual will perform, as with any setup someone may choose.
Yes, the 45-70 with these modification would be the ideal set-up for someone who wants to hunt with one. As to the original loading of the 45-70, I find them to be anemic when it comes to thick-skinned dangerous game. The primary thing to remember is that bullet placement with a properly designed and constructed bullet is the answer, in any case, to an animal one is hunting or even defending against; whether it be a 22lr or a 700 NE.

@AustinM - I’m not a gunsmith so not certain what Lever action “modifications” you mention regarding “barrel threading” are needed to achieve velocities of 2100 fps with .400 gr bullets? I did chrono my “stock” Marlin 1895 and got almost exactly the advertised fps on Buffalo bore 350 & 405 gr , 430 gr ammo —- I went with the 350 gr except when hunting bear over bait at closer ranges. It seemed the fps Buffalo Bore claims is accurate — at least thru my Marlin 1895.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Doug Hamilton - like a Browning .50 cal machine gun? Don’t you think “effective” is hitting your target where you intended with a well constructed bullet? Also, that the 1st shot is almost always the most important one. I can’t knock a rifle design that has worked so effectively for 150 years especially since the animals are still exactly the same….only our attitudes have changed. A Spear to a Bow = improvement, Bow to a Rifle = improvement, Rifle to Rifle = incremental progress.

Of course putting the first shot in t by e right place is the most important place is the most important thing. It"s just not the only thing. I have never met an animal that was willing to pose in a perfect position and waif patiently while the hunter lines up the perfect shot. That would also assume that hunters never got excited or "shakey" when the time to shoot comes. If that could happen there would be no need for countries to establish legal minimums for rifle calibers. A .30-06 or something similar would be good for anything in the world. I would also go so far as to say that any hunter that says he has never missed, or made a poor hit, is lying.

A .50 MG is not needed for anything, but the cartridge/bullet combination should be able to reach the vitals of the game from any angle. This is even more important with dangerous game. There are many graves in Africa for those that used inadequate weapons.

 

[HankBuck]

Of course putting the first shot in t by e right place is the most important place is the most important thing. It"s just not the only thing. I have never met an animal that was willing to pose in a perfect position and waif patiently while the hunter lines up the perfect shot. That would also assume that hunters never got excited or "shakey" when the time to shoot comes. If that could happen there would be no need for countries to establish legal minimums for rifle calibers. A .30-06 or something similar would be good for anything in the world. I would also go so far as to say that any hunter that says he has never missed, or made a poor hit, is lying.

A .50 MG is not needed for anything, but the cartridge/bullet combination should be able to reach the vitals of the game from any angle. This is even more important with dangerous game. There are many graves in Africa for those that used inadequate weapons.

@Doug Hamilton - I think we’re close to agreement and I’m very much a fan of the .30-06, I think with that and a 12 ga I could feed & take care of myself anywhere on Earth….maybe a fishing pole too??