Why was the bring back Von Gruff thread deleted?

[Red Leg]

As a general rule we in the US, along with sensible people worldwide, believe in free speech. I find it hard to believe a general discussion about the topic at hand violated any site rules and therefore find it off putting that the thread was deleted. If said discussion did in fact violate site rules then why not say so? If the thread was so inflammatory why not address the matter it in a firm and direct manner and be done with it? Simply deleting the thread has a very bad look to it..

This is absolutely not a "free speech" issue.

This site is a business venture. It is a business that offers a set of beneficial products and/or rewards to the ownership and subscribers. To put it simply, the business model offers a particularly useful, even unique, information service to the membership, and through sponsorships, provides a bit of income to the owner.

In turn, that sponsorship model provides a means for other businesses (outfitters, travel agents, gunmakers, optics producers, etc) to advertise and sell their products through the site. Anyone who has booked a hunt or purchased a product through one of those sponsors has benefitted from that business model.

Jerome has also provided a classified section where members can sell the occasional rifle, scope, even old Courteney boots, without paying a listing fee or becoming a sponsor. I would argue that the sale of personal items through classified listings or thread dialogue is rather obviously different than running a sales business through the same chat service. A business, even a hobby business, is pretty obviously not a classified listing.

I have no idea what personal interaction occurred. I have enormous respect for Jerome, the risks he has taken in creating this forum, and appreciation for the service it provides. I also am a great fan of Gary's knives and would guess I am likely second to @ActionBob in quantity I have purchased. He has a business listing which I will visit periodically.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I VOLUNTEER my time to moderate here on AH, attempting to foster a positive atmosphere where like minded people from around the world can share their interests. That positive environment is what attracted me to the community that Jerome created years ago.

It is a challenge to bring multiple cultures together from around the world. Combine that with language and the fact some people are more skilled/gifted authors than others and thus communicate more or less effectively with the written word can cause issues to arise. Misunderstandings occur more often in a vacuum where people fail to obtain information from all sources before broadcasting their conclusions. It happens here all too often.

Operating a busy website is not free, most people have come to understand that. The internet is not free. Great websites require significant time and resources to develop and maintain quality and relevance. Much more than most people understand really.
Members wanting to generously help others in need is something I appreciate here on AH. That culture is important and in trying to use AH as a positive vehicle to that end, members make "simple" requests that may not be accommodated as easily as they might think.

I'd encourage any member to gain clarification directly from the sources before getting too twisted.
In the not to distant past an ex-member decided to spew abuse on the internet about Jerome and calling Jerome "Un-American" (Typical troll speak for anyone not agreeing with the troll). The ex-member did not appreciate being banned apparently.

On that note for my own concerns: I am tired of the angry troll behaviour appearing here on AH. It only fosters more of the same. As the "Ice Cuban", I have provided @WillMFerguson a short vacation from this private enterprise. If the troll posting continues after the vacation, I'll make the vacation permanent.

Free speech does not mean you can be a rude prick and say anything you want. Consider that before posting.

 

[Aaron N]

Ice Cuban totally went over my head! That’s a new one for me

 

[steve white]

I VOLUNTEER my time to moderate here on AH, attempting to foster a positive atmosphere where like minded people from around the world can share their interests. That positive environment is what attracted me to the community that Jerome created years ago.

It is a challenge to bring multiple cultures together from around the world. Combine that with language and the fact some people are more skilled/gifted authors than others and thus communicate more or less effectively with the written word can cause issues to arise. Misunderstandings occur more often in a vacuum where people fail to obtain information from all sources before broadcasting their conclusions. It happens here all too often.

Operating a busy website is not free, most people have come to understand that. The internet is not free. Great websites require significant time and resources to develop and maintain quality and relevance. Much more than most people understand really.
Members wanting to generously help others in need is something I appreciate here on AH. That culture is important and in trying to use AH as a positive vehicle to that end, members make "simple" requests that may not be accommodated as easily as they might think.

I'd encourage any member to gain clarification directly from the sources before getting too twisted.
In the not to distant past an ex-member decided to spew abuse on the internet about Jerome and calling Jerome "Un-American" (Typical troll speak for anyone not agreeing with the troll). The ex-member did not appreciate being banned apparently.

On that note for my own concerns: I am tired of the angry troll behaviour appearing here on AH. It only fosters more of the same. As the "Ice Cuban", I have provided @WillMFerguson a short vacation from this private enterprise. If the troll posting continues after the vacation, I'll make the vacation permanent.

Free speech does not mean you can be a rude prick and say anything you want. Consider that before posting.

ALWAYS glad for the positive atmosphere here--it is a breath of fresh air compared to the vitriol and drama on cetain other sites I no longer have time for.

 

[steve white]

For a while I thought Von Gruff may have suffered my fate...my wife (almost) thinks I am having an affair on her due to the consistent time spent on this site...

 

[Josh P]

ALWAYS glad for the positive atmosphere here--it is a breath of fresh air compared to the vitriol and drama on cetain other sites I no longer have time for.

I'll second that. It can be difficult to not indulge in the pull towards the negative. The more that will, the easier it will be for (most) everyone else.

 

[ActionBob]

Ice Cuban totally went over my head! That’s a new one for me

Me too, but took a guess at it

@BRICKBURN are you going to change your avatar? HAHAHA

Seriously the comments about Cultures is so true. Add in language, including those of us separated by a common language. Heck I get in trouble for being a Northerner when speaking North to my lovely Southern wife! Let me tell you there is a huge difference.

When I delt with workers from an Eastern Block country, in the beginning I took "yes" at face value. i.e. "Did you do that task I asked you to do?" I quickly leaned that "yes" might mean yes I did,.... or yes I did not,.... or yes I did not and have no intention of doing it!

Communication is vital and all too often messed up in simple ways that become complicated.

 

[Green Chile]

When I delt with workers from an Eastern Block country, in the beginning I took "yes" at face value. i.e. "Did you do that task I asked you to do?" I quickly leaned that "yes" might mean yes I did,.... or yes I did not,.... or yes I did not and have no intention of doing it!

Communication is vital and all too often messed up in simple ways that become complicated.

Laughing because that is so true! Yes I did not and have no intentions of doing so...you can't make this stuff up. Legit.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Yeah I agree that freedom of speech and freedom to speak is important. It's something that we grew up with as a fundamental right and foundation of our democracy.

The reality tho is the internet is very much a capitalist machine. (Think network of privately owned corporations)
The guy that owns and runs the site (business) makes the rules, and gets the final say. Period

Understood and I agree. However, given the persons involved I thought a little transparency might be in order and in the best interest of everyone. I missed @AfricaHunting.com’s earlier response in this thread and accept it.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

A forum is the online equivalent to private property. You're free to say whatever you want at your own house, but if you try to say certain things at my house, even if half the neighborhood is over for a cookout, you're going to be asked to be quiet, change the subject, or leave. We, the users/members, do not own the "property" that is AH.com, but are allowed to participate here as guests.

Fully agree. Thought the situation needed addressed for the best interest of everyone and it has been.

 

[Hank2211]

I own more than few Von Gruff knives and all of my interactions with Garry have been positive.

Having said that, if were a sponsor this site, I might have wondered why I should pay to hold that title, when others can offer their products or services for free? At some point, the one-offs sales likely could be more properly characterized as a business, and in fairness to all, those who advertise their business through this site should be treated equitably.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

For years I participated on a forum that was essentially not moderated. It became hopeless. Previous to that I belonged to another outdoors forum moderated by a couple of crazy people (one moderator's husband had her taken away to a psych hospital. No kidding!). That one was a worse mess. I appreciate that this site is closely moderated. However, I think sometimes folks need to take a step back and maybe let a third party in to resolve a misunderstanding. Or at least pick up the phone and talk about the issue. It's way, way too easy to read between the lines of internet rambling and draw the wrong conclusion. And listening to "he said she said" gossip ... well, that is never productive. Direct confrontation person to person is not as easy as blasting away at a keyboard, but it's usually the best way to resolve things. It's really too bad this couldn't have been fixed. I haven't been around long but from what little I have seen both guys were class act. Very surprised this happened.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

This is absolutely not a "free speech" issue.

This site is a business venture. It is a business that offers a set of beneficial products and/or rewards to the ownership and subscribers. To put it simply, the business model offers a particularly useful, even unique, information service to the membership, and through sponsorships, provides a bit of income to the owner.

In turn, that sponsorship model provides a means for other businesses (outfitters, travel agents, gunmakers, optics producers, etc) to advertise and sell their products through the site. Anyone who has booked a hunt or purchased a product through one of those sponsors has benefitted from that business model.

Jerome has also provided a classified section where members can sell the occasional rifle, scope, even old Courteney boots, without paying a listing fee or becoming a sponsor. I would argue that the sale of personal items through classified listings or thread dialogue is rather obviously different than running a sales business through the same chat service. A business, even a hobby business, is pretty obviously not a classified listing.

I have no idea what personal interaction occurred. I have enormous respect for Jerome, the risks he has taken in creating this forum, and appreciation for the service it provides. I also am a great fan of Gary's knives and would guess I am likely second to @ActionBob in quantity I have purchased. He has a business listing which I will visit periodically.

I understand that this is a business and what that entails. The speech part was in reference to the deletion of threads not anything to do with Von Gruff. Just thought that it would be best for everyone if the situation was addressed.

 

[Doubleplay]

Yeah I agree that freedom of speech and freedom to speak is important. It's something that we grew up with as a fundamental right and foundation of our democracy.

The reality tho is the internet is very much a capitalist machine. (Think network of privately owned corporations)
The guy that owns and runs the site (business) makes the rules, and gets the final say. Period

Yes you are free to say whatever you want and moderators here are free to take down whatever they want. This is how freedom of speech works in private domain or at any private enterprise.

 

[VertigoBE]

I understand the principle of this forum being a business.

I see an online forum a bit like a party in a club. The organizers of the party are the bosses, they pay the rent, organise marketing campains, ensure everything is secure, etc. As they run the show, they can keep the doors closed for those that might ruin the party. You can't come in if you arrive in shorts and slippers, you need to behave. There will be alcohol brands that will sponsor the party, and in return get the possibility of their product being purchased.

But all this is for naught if there are not a bunch of hot girls (that probably don't pay the entrance fee) that get the party going, keeping it alive and interesting, and makes sure there is a line outside waiting to be let in. Likely they won't pay for a drink the entire evening. Objectively they are a net cost, they take up space, that could be taken by another paying customer. But because of having them there, the other party people keep on coming back day after day.

The strength of a forum is in its' ability to attract (and retain) knowledgeable people who will freely share their knowledge. This is what makes the party alive. It is also the reason why I pay for a membership here. There is no advantage to me being a bronze, silver or gold member, zero. As the economic logical thinker I hope to be, I should just let others pay and profit from it. But specifically because I have gotten through this site into contact with so many immensely interesting people, who share their knowledge freely, I can only do the next best thing. Pay a little sum to the organizers of the party, to keep the party going day after day. Just like the guy in the club, getting himself a beer at the bar, so he can have a chat with one of the models.

When too many of the hot girls go, no matter how well of a party organizer you are, your parties will see less and less public coming in.

I do not know what was said, with what tone. Both parties, through my limited communication with them have always seemed reasonable. It is a loss for all, that this happened.


(yes I just compared Von Gruff to a hot, sexy girl, hopefully we can all get a laugh out of that)

 

[sierraone]

Me too, but took a guess at it

@BRICKBURN are you going to change your avatar? HAHAHA

Seriously the comments about Cultures is so true. Add in language, including those of us separated by a common language. Heck I get in trouble for being a Northerner when speaking North to my lovely Southern wife! Let me tell you there is a huge difference.

When I delt with workers from an Eastern Block country, in the beginning I took "yes" at face value. i.e. "Did you do that task I asked you to do?" I quickly leaned that "yes" might mean yes I did,.... or yes I did not,.... or yes I did not and have no intention of doing it!

Communication is vital and all too often messed up in simple ways that become complicated.

Never been called an Ice Cuban before. Don't know whether I would be offended or not.

 

[Mekaniks]

Yes you are free to say whatever you want and moderators here are free to take down whatever they want. This is how freedom of speech works in private domain or at any private enterprise.

And follow the rules that were agreed to in order to get in the door, or get kicked to the curb.
@BRICKBURN explained it well a few posts ago….

I think this whole little mess has unfortunately been a good internet education class for some folks…

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Never been called an Ice Cuban before. Don't know whether I would be offended or not.

I’m guessing it’s a pejorative term for Canadians

 

[Art Lambart II]

I am deeply saddened by this situation; I love AH and I love Gary’s knifes. I believe I own the very first knife Gary made for an AH member, it was a gift from my father, I will miss Gary on this forum.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Promotion of businesses is tricky on these forums. And not just from the moderator/site owner's perspective. I am reluctant to openly acknowledge who I've been hunting with. Anyone who wants to know can contact me via private message and I will determine if I want to be associated with referring them. I've had a couple of people over the years contact me for outfitter info and I simply did not want to have anything to do with them. Last thing I need is some blue ribbon jerk telling my outfitter friends, "Oh, Pat said you'd make me a special deal on buffalo, blah, blah, blah." Also, I think it should be up to the outfitters how they chose to advertise themselves. On the other hand, I find I am NOT as reluctant to openly reveal the source of avoidable bad experiences. Look at my past threads and you'll see I have raked one South African taxidermist over the coals for ruining TWO trophy shipments. And the forwarding company that ripped me off for $1K and blamed it on the airline. I can't in good conscience stand by silently while someone else gets similarly screwed. Forums like this are really the only remedy for ensuring bad business gets fixed ... or run out of business.