Woodleigh weldcore

[IvW]

The bullets pictured do not represent over-expansion. the bullets have lost their integrity and most of their weight. A bullet that is simply over-expanded and retains 80%+ of its weight may have expanded to the base of the shank, but will be point forward and will have penetrated in a straight line; unlike your separated jackets that resemble shrapnel.

Well if this is not overexpansion with a so called premium grade bullet with "weldcore" fusion of the lead to the copper jacket at the top end of the manufacturers recommended velocity, then I don't know what overexpansion is.

This bullet so violently over expanded that it just could not stay together at the manufacturer's recommended velocities.

So how come this bullet then lost it's "integrity" and had a catastrophic failure?

Apparently expansion or overexpansion had nothing to do with it, perhaps I just don't have enough experience regarding or I just plain don't know what I am talking about.

 

[Pheroze]

My recollection of seeing a picture like that was from an article about bullets in a 416. I believe that the author pushed the bullets, and that was the result. The conclusion was that you could push North Forks hard and not have this problem. The Woodleigh bullets did not do well past their parameters. Is that picture from the article?

 

[Shootist43]

IvW, you've done it again, i.e. convinced me that if or when I go on a buff hunt that my 416 Rigby will not be loaded with a Woodleigh bullet. Once again, my thanks for proving your point with photos of the failures. I am willing to concede that Woodleigh makes a fine bullet for smaller and or less densely constructed animals. But that for buffalo at 416 Rigby velocities there are as you said much better choices available.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

For bolt actions I would agree. For double rifles I would not.

The Rigby operates at 47137 psi and the 450/400 NE at under 35000 psi. That is 34.7% more which is significant in a double.

When comparing the 404 Jeff to the 416 Rigby the felt and actual recoil of the Rigby is more, firing same bullet at same velocity. Reason for this is case design. The Jeff has a more efficient case design.
The Rigby has a sharper recoil.

When comparing the Rigby to the 450/400 NE recoil and pressure wise, there is a huge difference. On the front end the difference is much more comparable. Buff hit by either would have a hard time telling the difference.

I haven't ever played with the Woody's and have no intent to in the future. They may perform great within their specified velocity window, but being restricted to that just makes a hand loaders life that much more complicated. This is why I don't bother with them. I don't want to be thinking at the moment of truth, will the bullet be going to fast when I hit that big bad and ill tempered animal with it?

Having said that whether it's overexpansion or loss of structural integrity, I'm not sure it matters. The bullet hasn't performed as desired. But for the sake of discussion, I am wondering if you're attributing the Woodleigh's overexpansion / loss of integrity due to high pressure or high velocity or both? I know it's splitting hairs as higher pressure leads to higher velocity. But if you're attributing this to higher pressure alone and impact velocity was within the specified range, that suggests the bullet's integrity was compromised before it even left the rifle barrel.

 

[IvW]

My recollection of seeing a picture like that was from an article about bullets in a 416. I believe that the author pushed the bullets, and that was the result. The conclusion was that you could push North Forks hard and not have this problem. The Woodleigh bullets did not do well past their parameters. Is that picture from the article?

Yes it is. The Woodleighs where shot at 2400 Fps and not "pushed" and if you check the Woodleigh website you will see that they are supposed to handle this velocity. Clearly not.

http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/blog/?p=71

Here is another catastrophic failure with Woodleighs reply from Geoff McDonald.

The reply from Woodleigh does not give me much confidence in this bullet or any other Woodleigh soft for that matter!

Below bullet is a 500gr Woodleigh(or use to be before fired) with which a Blesbuck(same size as a Whitetail deer!!)

Greetings Peter,
Thank you for forwarding the email report.
The bullet does look a bit of a mess.
I have a couple of observations which may explain.’
First, our soft nose especially the bigger calibres, are at the softer end of the bullet spectrum by today’s standards. But they are tough compared with original Kynoch’s.
It is my opinion from much experience, that “soft” bullets are generally quicker killers than “tough” SN.
Also a bullet which over expands, as this one did, leads one to assume that it would be way too soft for a buffalo for example.
I have seen this phenomena quite often where a bullet appears quite soft when shot into a small animal, yet performs well on buffalo.
I cannot explain why but other experienced hunters I have spoken to have related to similar experiences, and not just with our bullets.
The second point is that the ammunition was loaded in Europe and may have generated more pressure and therefore more velocity than normal.
These bullets perform as expected at the proper velocity of around 2100-2150 fps.
See attached photo of a 470 SN & buffalo bull heart which it penetrated.

I am curious to know what the velocity is from this rifle while in SA.
Is it possible to have the ammunition chronographed?
I look forward to receiving more information.
Regards,
Geoff McDonald.

Just more proof that Woodleighs are not consistent performers and for me a no no when it comes to DG hunting, period.

 

[IvW]

I haven't ever played with the Woody's and have no intent to in the future. They may perform great within their specified velocity window, but being restricted to that just makes a hand loaders life that much more complicated. This is why I don't bother with them. I don't want to be thinking at the moment of truth, will the bullet be going to fast when I hit that big bad and ill tempered animal with it?

Having said that whether it's overexpansion or loss of structural integrity, I'm not sure it matters. The bullet hasn't performed as desired. But for the sake of discussion, I am wondering if you're attributing the Woodleigh's overexpansion / loss of integrity due to high pressure or high velocity or both? I know it's splitting hairs as higher pressure leads to higher velocity. But if you're attributing this to higher pressure alone and impact velocity was within the specified range, that suggests the bullet's integrity was compromised before it even left the rifle barrel.

The pressure comparison was made just to show that a 416 Rigby caliber is high when compared to other doubles and in my opinion not a good idea(apart from the fact that it does not have a rim) for a double rifle cartridge, especially if the rifle in question is a Sabatti.

The Woodleighs cannot handle higher velocity and in some cases not even specified velocities.

I would only ever try them in standard NE calibers which in most cases are 1900-2150 fps.

Agreed on the rest. I will not use them again, maybe for paper punching and practice but not for hunting.

 

[IvW]

IvW, you've done it again, i.e. convinced me that if or when I go on a buff hunt that my 416 Rigby will not be loaded with a Woodleigh bullet. Once again, my thanks for proving your point with photos of the failures. I am willing to concede that Woodleigh makes a fine bullet for smaller and or less densely constructed animals. But that for buffalo at 416 Rigby velocities there are as you said much better choices available.

Wise choice Shootist43.

 

[Pheroze]

Yes it is. The Woodleighs where shot at 2400 Fps and not "pushed" and if you check the Woodleigh website you will see that they are supposed to handle this velocity. Clearly not.

I thought "pushed" because the article mentions they were rated to 2200 fps. I just checked on the Woodleigh website and it indicates the bullet should be good up to 2400 fps - so not pushed at all then. Hmmm...

 

[Ray B]

I don't know what overexpansion is.

I just plain don't know what I am talking about.

The first step to resolution of a disagreement is finding something on which both sides agree. I see we've found that consensus.

 

[IvW]

The first step to resolution of a disagreement is finding something on which both sides agree. I see we've found that consensus.

Marvelous.

 

[norfolk shooter]

so back to the original question acording to some woodleigh bullets are shit but others rate them. Oh well

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

so back to the original question acording to some woodleigh bullets are shit but others rate them. Oh well

Well there is room for a middle ground here I think. When kept at slower velocities they seem work fine. The problem for you is I believe you chose .416 Rigby which has a cavernous case and certainly capable of pushing bullets a bit faster than some of the other .416's.

As such, I'd avoid the Woodleighs in your DR. There are other choices.

 

[IvW]

so back to the original question acording to some woodleigh bullets are shit but others rate them. Oh well

For the 416 Rigby with 400gr bullets loaded to 2415 fps, the first part of your statement is correct.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Barnes?? Only thing is different profile bullet

 

[IvW]

Barnes?? Only thing is different profile bullet

I would not go the Barnes route for a double.

Best bet would be North Fork bullets. Go on their website and click on Doubles in the menu. Very impressive controlled expansion and due to the design they are safe to use in most doubles(you may want to clear this with Sabatti to make sure they can be used in their rifle).

They work very well over a large velocity range and do not lose their "integrity" or over expand.

They are also a weight forward design which is part of their great success on DG.

I know you are based in the UK but may be worth your while e-mailing them to find out about availability or suppliers.

 

[Bos Javanicus]

I've shot a few Buff with Woodies, in both .400 & .500 cal RNSP and they have all been knocked A over T with no worries.
I would like to see the them hold together just a little more at 2400fps, but at 2150fps they are very good.

 

[CAustin]

IvW, you've done it again, i.e. convinced me that if or when I go on a buff hunt that my 416 Rigby will not be loaded with a Woodleigh bullet. Once again, my thanks for proving your point with photos of the failures. I am willing to concede that Woodleigh makes a fine bullet for smaller and or less densely constructed animals. But that for buffalo at 416 Rigby velocities there are as you said much better choices available.

You can always use your other DG rifle!

 

[CAustin]

OK so the pictures posted by @IvW clearly indicate that something other than Hornady DGX can not be trusted to kill an animal dead enough!
Thanks for sharing sir.

 

[Excessexpress]

IvW, your photograph refers to 450Gr projectiles at 2400 fps, yet the photograph includes the information - recommended impact velocity 1800-2200 fps.

If you're going to use the projectiles outside their design parameters, you can expect to get unsatisfactory results.


Norfolk shooter, the projectile choice and velocity must first be determined by regulation in your double rifle. Once you've found a weight and velocity that regulates, stick with it. Vary your bullet selection from there if you wish, if you're lucky you will be able to find a load for lighter projectiles like the 340gr PP that Woodleigh makes as well.

If your rifle is regulated for 410gr projectiles, it is unlikely you'll be able to push a 450 fast enough without running into excessive pressures, but a 410gr is a magnificent choice for DG, including Woodleigh.

 

[IvW]

IvW, your photograph refers to 450Gr projectiles at 2400 fps, yet the photograph includes the information - recommended impact velocity 1800-2200 fps.

If you're going to use the projectiles outside their design parameters, you can expect to get unsatisfactory results.

Do yourself a favour and visit the Woodleigh website. The 450gr 416 is rated to 2400 Fps. The box says 1800-2200 fps!

Perhaps Woodleigh just up the velocity to 2400 fps for no reason I have no idea, just stating what the website says.

Google Woodleigh bullet failure and see what you come up with.

Second picture of 500 gr Woodleigh at 2100 Fps from a 470 NE on a blesbuck just convinced me to not even attempt to use them on Leopard.

Nowadays DG safaris cost a lot of money and when you factor in the possibility of getting seriously injured or killed if using inferior ammunition or tools for the job, well that is just not a good idea.

From a PH perspective I prefer to use the best I can and cannot afford to have failures. Therefore I do not use Woodleighs and also do not recommend them for DG unless when using a double with traditional Rimmed NE cartridges.