35 Whelen pre-64 model 70 project

[flatwater bill]

Shootist...........you are right! But I could not get that old Elmer Kieth story out of my head. The one about him killing the giant Kodiak with his whelen and his loading of "a 275 grain WTC bullet backed by 57 grains of 4064. (A load I was never able to duplicate, by the way). I loaded the 275 grainer, but pressure developed long before I got to 57 grains of 4064, even with the AI. Still, I got nearly 2400 fps...............so good power..................FWB

 

[Shawn.54]

No Problem- no foul Sometimes these discussions of custom modifications go beyond the norm. Might seem trivial and especially puzzling for those who don't reload and stay with factory, SAAMI spec ammo. Rule's book, The Rifleman's Rifle, pgs 100-110, is a good reference to the various Win M70 cartridge specific action specs.

I have found the OALs of standard long carts, if of reasonable length, are not especially critical for proper function in the Rem 700 standard long action. And for the most part that is true for the Winchester 70 standard (30-06) length actions. Except I did find that I could short stroke the action, with some effort to do so, in the standard length M70 action with some of the 338-06 ammo I was loading with certain bullets. And with some loads, the OAL of the loaded round was a tad long for the partitioned standard length M70 magazine box.

Hmmmm? I set about fixing both issues. I removed the magazine box partition to accommodate most any practical OAL 338-06 cart (or the OAL of any similar cart. for that matter)- 270 W, 35 Whelen, 30-06, etc.). Then to help prevent the short stroking potential, I modified (slightly shortened) the bolt stop and the ejector. Then used a Win 70 Mag length follower for the now full-length magazine. Those mods, coupled with the custom 338-06 chamber reamer I used, resulted in a rifle that would handle ANY reasonable length 338-06 cartridge with no magazine length issues and an absolute minimum chance of short stroking.

I have a Remington 700 classic built in 1987-1988 that has so much magazine space that I use only Nosler Accubonds in 225gr because it destroys all lead tipped bullets in two shots. I would love to tell you how much weight they retained but have never had one stop inside a animal.
In the 700 I load them way longer than col. The picture below is my 225 accubonds in 35 Whelen and my 375 Ruger with 200gr GS Custom. The 375 is at max col I know that my 35s won't fit in a 7600 pump.
Shawn

 

[CAustin]

Good luck on your project and I hope you will keep posting pictures of the progress.

 

[Desert Dog]

But I could not get that old Elmer Kieth story out of my head. The one about him killing the giant Kodiak with his whelen and his loading of "a 275 grain WTC bullet backed by 57 grains of 4064. (A load I was never able to duplicate, by the way). I loaded the 275 grainer, but pressure developed long before I got to 57 grains of 4064, even with the AI.

Hahaha. I love Elmer and his contribution to hunting and shooting, but he was probably 50% full of BS. The guy did claim to kill mule deer at 600 yards with a iron sighted handgun after all

 

[Marty Weatherup]

If you want to keep your original barrel, you might consider JES reboring. He can turn your original 270 barrel into a 35 Whelen and have your gun back to you in a couple weeks. He did a Sedgley Springfield with a bad bore from 30-06 to 375 Whelen and it was 10 days from my door back to my door. The rifle shot great.

My own 35 Whelen is a 1941 model 70 converted to left hand operation and rebored by Cliff LaBounty. Cliff is retired now. My 35 thinks its a varmint gun. I have yet to find a 250 grain bullet it doesn't like. You would have to look hard to find a better big game combination than a 35 Whelen stoked with 250 Partitions. Mine has three caribou to its credit with that bullet. All three very dead very fast.

 

[fourfive8]

I just spent the last hour on Nickon's Spot On Ballistic Calculator to confirm my recollections of research done a year ago. The 225 Gr. bullets loaded to 2800 FPS are by far the better load ballistically than the 250(s) and 280(s). The 225 Gr bullet has an additional 300 to 400 Ft. Lbs. of energy at 250 yds. than the heavier bullets. Unlike flatwater bill I went with the 225s and their much bigger wallop.

I'm not exactly sure what a "wallop" is but a 225 at 2800 fps out of a 35 Whelen is cooking. I've had both a 35 Whelen and a 35 Whelen AI and somewhere around 2600 fps with the 225 and 2500 fps with the 250, in both rifles, I started seeing early warning pressure signs. Proceed as you like- just my 02 cents.

 

[Dr Ray]

Because I can not be with out a project gun.... I picked up a Winchester pre-64, 1955 production, Model 70 barreled action in .270 win a month or so ago. What to do with it????......I went around and around and around.... Lots of possibilities???? Refinish it, leave it .270 and put a short stock on it for the kid??? Or, leave it in the back of the safe until I "need" it??? Or, rebarrel it and build a rifle I can use??? So, after much angst, reading load manuals, drinking merlot, reasearching google, drinking beer, talking to friends, shots of fireball, and finally have decided to build a 35 Whelen.
"The Plan" is to rebarrel the action to .35 Whelen with a 24" 1-14 twist medium contour stainless barrel with rear leaf fold down sights and a front hood sight. Have it all coated with Nitride flat black. Stock it with a HS Precision Kevlar/Composite Monte Carlo stock hydro dipped with wood grain, complete with checkering, black forearm tip, stock cross bolts, reproduction red Winchester butt pad and metal grip cap. Try to make it so it look like a cool traditional Supergrade as much as possible. Then dress it up by jewel the bolt, engrave/etch the bottom metal with a moose and install some AK Arms QD scope rings. I haven't decided on a scope yet.....probebly either a Swavarski to Leopold....
Taking it to the gunsmith next week. And then I can pick up some brass and reloading dies. Planning to start handloading 280 grain Swift A-Frames....

View attachment 198029

Sounds like a great project. I've used one on wild hogs.
A great cartridge I might add and with a 1 in 14 barrel twist you could load up the heaviest bullets.
I like both the Leupold and Swarovski scopes - I have both

After this, what's your next project??

 

[bilmcc]

I thought i would eventually get a 35 Whelen. Those I came in contact with were $3000 and more. Drop dead walnut stocks, with all sorts of engraving. Eventually I found a BLR in .358 Winchester. It's 10 to 15% short of the 35 Whelen, and really accurate, so I will stick with what I got. Still, the 35 Whelen is an impressive cartridge!

 

[Shootist43]

I'm not exactly sure what a "wallop" is but a 225 at 2800 fps out of a 35 Whelen is cooking. I've had both a 35 Whelen and a 35 Whelen AI and somewhere around 2600 fps with the 225 and 2500 fps with the 250, in both rifles, I started seeing early warning pressure signs. Proceed as you like- just my 02 cents.

Both Barnes and Nosler list loads achieving the velocity mentioned. Head spacing is critical with these loads. In addition, please check out some of the older reloading manuals and the reloading blogs.

 

[flatwater bill]

shootst..............................I thought you might be mistaken about reloading manuals listing 225 grainers at 2800fps. I never could achieve that velocity. I looked up the manuals...........you are absolutely right. Several loadings top 2800 fps with 225 grainers. That is a lot of power. An accurate Whelen with such a load would make a great 300 yard elk rifle.................FWB

 

[Rob404]

I don't know what powder was used to achieve 2800fps. I worked up loads using 57gs of RL15 and got 2517 and 59gs of Win 748 and got 2510fps, this is out of a Rem 700. I mainly load for accuracy but I would be interested in achieving a few more fps providing accuracy doesn't go down the crapper.

 

[Shootist43]

Rob404, what length barrel were you using? Powder was 4064.

 

[fourfive8]

Proceed as you wish. Just saying...

 

[Shootist43]

I have no doubt but that these are the newest "liability limiting" loads approved by their lawyers. Take a look at some of their older manuals.

 

[Mekaniks]

So here is a good example of where reloading manuals differ and handloading gets gray....

The Barnes Manual in @fourfive8 post shows the 225g TSX at 2775fps with 57.5 grains of R-15 and 24" barrel.

The Swift Manual below shows 225g A Frames at 2601fps with 58.5 grains of R-15 and a 24" barrel.

Obviously the TSX and A Frame are very different bullet designs but that seems to me to be a significant diffrence in velocity when using the same powder and same length barrel with the same twist rates, especially since Swift is using 1 grain more powder but losing 175fps to Barnes......

 

[fourfive8]

I have not found a single reputable source, old or new, that shows a load for a 225 gr bullet at 2800 fps.

 

[Nosler guy]

We have 3 - 35 Whelens - 2 are built on Mauser actions, the third is the 700 Classic
We get our highest velocities and best accuracy out of 4064 - have always used 250 grain bullets - just under 2600 (2580) is the about the upper limit for pressure in the 700, a bit less in the Mausers

 

[Rob404]

Rob404, what length barrel were you using? Powder was 4064.

My Rem has a 22" factory barrel

 

[Shawn.54]

I can't copy and paste it but the Nosler website has several powders that give 2750-2800 my load is their max of RL15 moving at around 2735-2750 in a 22"barrel.
That load is a 1 hole 3 shot group if I can do my part.
Shawn
If I back it down the group opens up.

 

[fourfive8]

I can't copy and paste it but the Nosler website has several powders that give 2750-2800 my load is their max of RL15 moving at around 2735-2750 in a 22"barrel.
That load is a 1 hole 3 shot group if I can do my part.
Shawn
If I back it down the group opens up.

Thanks for bringing the Nosler website to my attention. Here's the Nosler page you were trying to post. This data varies significantly from the 2002 Nosler 5th Edition. Even though this data uses a 26 inch barrel for testing, it still far exceeds all other data I've seen from all other reputable sources. I would approach these loads with caution and use a chronograph. Other pressure data I've looked at with a 225 bullet out of the 35 Wh. to 2600 fps in a 24" bbl indicate pressures with most powders approaching 52k psi. My own experience with two different rifles in 35 Whelen and 35 Whelen AI suggested to me that around 2600 fps (chronographed- I chronograph all may loads) is the practical limit I was comfortable with for a reliable hunting load. If anyone wants to fiddle around in the 60k+ psi range with these loads to achieve the "magic" 2800 fps so be it