35 whelen pressures

[45-70guy]

Thanks for that. That at least gives me an idea what average everyone is running, and exactly how I run my loads is, I try to have a roughly known max pressure, then even if I find my load is 1-3 grains lower say, I can compare my pressures and velocities but also feel good about knowing I’m not really pushing the limits.

Over the years I’ve actually had great success within the books I have to be just under max loads for most calibers I use.
For accuracy, velocity wanted, and repeat shoot ability in field conditions to be accurate with a specific setup.

I have some North forks in both the 250 and 225 to try but also I have some from Hawk in both weights.

The 225 Ttsx in 180’s I have but prefer a heavier billet like the 225 at least.

 

[Longwalker]

I may be flirting with disaster, but I've been shooting a Remington 700 ( 22") , a custom Ruger #1 (25") and a custom Sako AV (24") with 250 grain Speer & Hornady bullets loaded to 2500 fps for years - using IMR 4064 and RL15 powders. Worked up the loads in each rifle, and despite their varying chambers and throats and twist and barrel length, all did Ok with my loads at those "High" velocities. I have not had any cases that developed loose primer pockets after 4-5 firings. Case stretch seems reasonable. No unusual pressure signs. Case head expansion, primer condition, case life, all normal. I've killed a dozen elk and a few moose and some assorted other critters with those loads, and they seem somewhat more effective than the common underloaded Remington factory ammunition. My uneducated conclusion is that the SAAMI standard pressure specs for this cartridge are too low, it has more potential.

 

[45-70guy]

Today’s weather was enough to slow down work, 30 mph sustained winds, 50 mph gusts and a foot of wet snow.
So after plowing my 1/4 mile driveway and cleaning the mess of trees up etc... I figured I’d get more tests in.

I tried to go back to 62 grains to see if maybe ES would change, and it was identical to my 61g load.

These are the changes I experienced:
-Brand new brass- gave all loads 58-64g low ES and SD in the teens. All with 1” or under accuracy.

-Once fire brass - velocities averaged 30 FPS higher, ES and SD up much more than with brand new brass.

-2 & 3 times fired brass- no pressure signs or significant trimming needed, velocities, ES and SD stay the same as with 1 times fired brass.

-cci200 primers slightly higher spreads than with Federal Match primers but not enough to write home about.

I’m doing another batch as we speak with this same 61g to see if the numbers go back down to the originals I have written down when I started.

Side note on the temp, it’s only 15 degrees warmer than it was when all testing has been taking place but there has been absolutely no increase in velocities with CFE223 yet for averages or spreads etc...
Not that 15 degrees is much but none the less it is more. I’ll keep hammering along and see what I come up with. Would like to try these out this upcoming bear season.

 

[45-70guy]

When you guys are running imr 4064 and getting 2500 FPS can I ask what grain weight your running?
I never went beyond 54 grains just because I stopped at the book max and my velocity was under 2300 so I moved onto the mext powder but I see Ken waters did go up as high as 55-56 grains. Just curious as at 54 my brass was actually less stretched or expanded than favtory loads and I may dive back into that powder as it works wonders in my 308’s.

 

[Deepfork]

Kind of off topic but another powder I never see mentioned that is working very well for me in 35 Whelen and 338-06AI is Shooters World Precision (Lovex S062). In 35 Whelen I get 2550fps with a 250gr Hot-Cor from my 22in M70. My loads with this powder are accurate and consistent. I started using the stuff because it is always available at Midway, everything else I use is hit or miss as far a availability.

 

[Longwalker]

57 grains of IMR4064, OR 57 grains of RL15 will produce 2500 fps with cup and core 250's with apparently safe pressures in my rifles. Please be aware that RL15 apparently suffers from fairly large variation in burn rate from lot to lot. So be sensible when working up loads, since velocity = pressure, within reason.

 

[mdwest]

57 grains of IMR4064, OR 57 grains of RL15 will produce 2500 fps with cup and core 250's with apparently safe pressures in my rifles.

57gr of IMR 4064 is the load I use with 250gr partitions… I get 2490 fps… almost identical results as you’re getting

 

[112Savage]

I know it’s a larger capacity case with a larger cross section plunger/bullet, but I have run up to 67 grains of CFE223 when doing load development for my 9.3x62 using the 258gr hammer bullet. I settled on 65grains for 2558fps. I have no doubt that the whelen is really pushing hard at that charge but I think it’s possible and still possibly safe on an individual basis.

I will note that two members here have posted very high velocities using the Speer data but they’re using 26-28” barrels, not the normal 22”. For this case size, 25-35fps/in would be pretty normal and falls in line with what I have seen in 9.3x62 going from 22” to 20.5”

 

[Deepfork]

For what I would do with a .358 I would look hard at 225 and less I think........... ...........

I disagree. I worked up loads for the Whelen with 180gr, 200gr, 225gr and 250gr bullets. The loads that stood out to me in the end were the 250gr Norma Oryx and Speer Hot-Cor at 2630fps. For me that load fills a niche or sweet spot between my standard long action calibers and the belted magnums and .375 which I also own.

I'll also say this again, lots of talk in this thread about CFE223. In both of my .35 Whelen Rifles 2000-MR out performed CFE223 by a fairly large margin with the 250gr bullets. Performance was similar at 225gr. Lighter than that and CFE223 was better.

My 250gr (2630fps) loads with 2000-MR are not max loads. I used 20 cases working up my 250gr loads, some have been fired 6 times and are still in good shape.

The 250gr will be my go to in the .35 Whelen. When I need to go lighter and faster I switch to the 338-06AI, 185gr Hornady CX at 3100. I have developed an odd (I admit it) obsession with 06 based cartridges.

 

[michael458]

I disagree.

You disagree with "what I would do with .358 I would look hard at 225 gr bullets or less"..........HEH HEH....... OK.........I did not say what You must look at? And my purposes are what exactly?

OK I am just kinda picking at you just a bit......... You have a different requirement for your 35 Whelen than I do, that is all....... fact is, I would be just dandy for my purpose and requirements with a 150 Raptor From CEB...... I had a beautiful Winchester M70 done in 35 Whelen some years ago by SSK, it was really a super nice rifle, fantastic wood......I also had one of the Ruger #1 Stainless rifles in 35 Whelen very nice....... honestly I just did not have time to mess with them, ended up selling both. I wish I had those back, but they would still be short of any attention I am afraid.

I love .358 caliber, I am partial to it above .338, and I don't own, will never own, and will never lay hands on a .375 POS as long as I live on planet earth.......Back in the day I have a Win M70 358 STA from the Custom Shop when it was in New Haven. Incredible rifle, used it for everything from impala to eland. Retired it, later built a 358 RUM, can run 250s at 3000 fps without much issue, but "For my Purposes Only", I run a 150 brass Raptor from CEB and 160 Copper Raptors at 3700 fps. I really do not need any medium caliber to ever do any heavy lifting of any sort........ although those Raptors punch way above their class. Most all my requirements are .458 caliber and above, and if I need something light I can move to .416....... Being retired from hunting, I don't need much of anything anyway.........LOL............ But I can tell you this and its a fact, many of the lighter .358 caliber bullets, such as the Hammers and Raptor, will far out perform terminally speaking, trauma inflicted and penetration than any 250 conventional bullet. These type Gen 1 and Gen II CNC bullets will enhance any cartridge and are worth "Taking a look at". If I were hunting with 35 Whelen then I would be using new bullet tech.........But I am not, so take that for what its worth.
Enjoy your day Gents........

 

[45-70guy]

I don’t have access to MR -2000 currently but do have a pile of cfe223 hence the usage, and it may be because I’m testing at shorter distances ( 100 yards) that I’m not going to see massive differences between powders for what I have on hand ?

I figured if In my 22” barrels if I could at least run 2400 FPS I would feel good about that load for any North American hunting. Can I do it with less, maybe but that was just a goal I set.

All powders gave 1” or better groups so the accuracy department wasn’t an issue, but the velocity using book data did.
I pulled some loads last night that were with 54 grains of IMR 4064, I’m not sure how much more I could fit in there physically, maybe 1 more grain.

I do prefer as full of a case as possible and maybe that’s a later test.
For right now CFE223 after my final testing yesterday I am running right at an average of 2484 FPS with a 61g load consistently.

It could also be because if now done about 200-250 rounds of tests and I need to give my shoulder a break.
I was getting just under 2600 FPS if I ran a max load when I run my sized cases, there are not pressure signs though the recoil is noticeable and at least for now I’m not sure I need that extra 100 FPS.

My 45-70’s are usually more fun to shoot if using marlin loads or trapdoor loads. Off hand shots being easily digestible and I’ve yet to have any animal need more than one shot or even leave from the area after being shot. Though I see many guys do go “full potential” which I have no desire to go that hard but use that as a reference to know I’m under what’s actually being used as a max so to say.

Thanks guys I’m hoping to get started on some 250g RN tonight, I’m blessed to have a range on my property so it makes it fast to get in some testing if time allows as I can walk outside, shoot and walk back in and tweak a load.

 

[Deepfork]

But I can tell you this and its a fact, many of the lighter .358 caliber bullets, such as the Hammers and Raptor, will far out perform terminally speaking, trauma inflicted and penetration than any 250 conventional bullet. These type Gen 1 and Gen II CNC bullets will enhance any cartridge and are worth "Taking a look at".

That is an interesting point. One of the reasons I shy away from the lighter bullets is the low BCs, I need to get that out of my head, generally not a factor the way I would use the Whelen.

 

[HankBuck]

Awaiting Bob answer, it should be good.

Unfortunately Bob has sold all of his .35 Whelens and switched over to the .243’s

 

[Art Lambart II]

Unfortunately Bob has sold all of his .35 Whelens and switched over to the .243’s

I didn't know Bob stopped hunting and shooting and started collecting boat anchors.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Unfortunately Bob has sold all of his .35 Whelens and switched over to the .243’s

I don't know about the .243, but I know he's been working on his wildcats based on the 7.7 Jap cartridge in Arisaka 99s. The .25 Samurai, 6.5 Rising Sun and .35BNE (Bob Nelson Express). LOL

 

[HankBuck]

I didn't know Bob stopped hunting and shooting and started collecting boat anchors.

Art, thats a “nasty” comment and inaccurate too - the .243 is a lousy Boat anchor, can’t anchor a boat any better then it can “anchor” an Elk at 300 yrds !

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I’ve done some serious digging on the search menu here and many other forums, it’s hard to find more than 1 or 2 cases to concretely determine what I’m trying to lock down.
I have seen a few guys running CFE223 do get impressive velocity, and my Maine concern now is running 250g bullets. Specifically Speer hot cores, hornady RN, and oryx. All in a 22” barrel Remington 700.

I’ve found that with IMR 4064, H-4895, and Varget that max Listed loads I’m just under or just over 2300 FPS.
Accuracy with these are good.
With CFE223 from start to finish what Speer lists I start at 2320 up to 2565 at the max.
Accuracy all good with these loads from start to finish, all under 1”.
While 20 degrees F I like to download ten slightly to allow use in warmer temps.
“Pressure” signs none are existent when compared to a Factory Winchester load in my chamber. Measurements at the pressure ring, if that’s what the technical term is, are matching my current cfe223 loads all the way up to 63g.
When I get to 64 grains that measurement is on average 0.0003” larger.
Ken waters normally referenced that he would drop down 3-5% from when he reached 0.0003-0.0005” of expansion for a comparison.

Every rifle being different, I’m trying to find legit concrete pressures that would be considered safe in this cartridge.
LEE second edition claims their data up to 60,000 psi, where Speer 14 was back at 52,000.
(I checked 06 , 270, 25-06, to compare similar rifles using that case and also that same Remington 700 rifle)
06 being “regulated” at 50,000 which does show they allow more for a 35 whelen chamber.
I’d like to see confirmations on if there’s more people running these powders and such velocities, it seems that for the majority of the whelens life guys ran 2300-2400 and maybe 2500 maxed with the 22-24” barrels and powders of the day.

But now 2500 seems to be the starting point.
I’m pushing towards cfe223 at a 2400fps for a compromise of “tolerance” between components, and temp. Which will be tested from low to start when the time comes, but also to increase case life.

What are the guys running 2500+ getting for case life?

That was long and I’ll be back for more but curious on some ideas and comments. I feel like I’ve been digging into forums for a week straight on just these topics

@45-70guy
I used Speers data for the 250gn hot cores and got a chronograph velocity of 2,680 fps out of my 25inch barrel
Using the Woodleighs I got the 2,700fps with the same load
Hornady Round nose 250s required a bit more powder due to the smaller bearing surface on the projectile.
From my research the Whelen as well as the 30-06 can safely run the same pressure as the 279 and 25-06 that being 62,000psi or 51,000 cup.
My loads have proven safe in our Australian summers of over 100degrees Fahrenheit and the Namibia desert without pressure issues. They also go bang quite happily in minus 6 Celcius.
I use STANDARD LARGE RIFLE Primers ONLY.
I did try magnum primers but found I got higher pressure..
Some of my cases are in their eight reload and the primer pockets are still tight. I use Remington brass only.
As you know each rifle is a law unto itself so it may be slower or faster with the same load.
I run a 25" tube
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Awaiting Bob answer, it should be good.

@Art Lambart II
Dunno about that mate. At least he wants an anst in the Whelen not the 243 so I will have to be serious.
Bob

 

[CZDiesel]

35 Whelen pressures = Bob’s response to every cartridge thread Sorry Bob it was low hanging fruit

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

It’s actually Bobs posts I found that put me on track with CFE223. In which I was happy to break 2400 FPS until I was then breaking 2500 FPS.

To add to my data collected each grain increase I had gave me an average of 30 FPS more.
Cases all extracted easily, bolt lift normal, etc... the normal.

BUT after 2 firings my cases did stretch enough they needed trimming, as I found out the max load of 64g gave me just the ever so slightest shiney mark of the ejector and when I measured these cases were over max listed length.

These cases specifically being hornady factory new to begin with. At this time being 2x fired.

@45-70guy
As you know I run mine full throttle all the time.
I'm using Remington cases and still haven't trimmed after upto 7 loads. I did anneal my cases for the 5th load and primer pockets are still tight. My rifle is set up for minimum headspace and I have only ever used REM brass.
All my primers are nicely rounded and you can't tell the difference between my fired cases and a fired 250gn REM factory loads looking at the primers.
You can sure tell the difference when you pull the trigger on a 2,700fos 250gn load compared to factory.
Bob